OpenRocket 13.11.1 - Can't add motors

The Rocketry Forum

Help Support The Rocketry Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
I understand the reason why the buttons behave as they do, and I thought about suggesting something like what you're thinking about. But I reached the conclusion that it'd just add confusing behavior to an already confusing situation. That is, it might make things easier for a first-time user but at the cost of more confusion down the line — as well as unnecessary complexity in the code. In the end it might be the best idea but first I think it'd be worthwhile spending some more time thinking whether the present interface for the configurations tab might have been the wrong direction to go.

One possibility I think might be cleaner, though requiring one or two more clicks, is to select only whole rows, and then get rid of the motor and ignition buttons, and add an "Edit" button. That would bring up a dialog specific to a single configuration, in which you'd have buttons or, perhaps better, dropdowns for each motor mount.

The point is, to my mind, trying to make all motors for all configurations editable from a single tab puts too much of a load on the user interface.
 
I understand the reason why the buttons behave as they do, and I thought about suggesting something like what you're thinking about. But I reached the conclusion that it'd just add confusing behavior to an already confusing situation. That is, it might make things easier for a first-time user but at the cost of more confusion down the line ? as well as unnecessary complexity in the code. In the end it might be the best idea but first I think it'd be worthwhile spending some more time thinking whether the present interface for the configurations tab might have been the wrong direction to go.

One possibility I think might be cleaner, though requiring one or two more clicks, is to select only whole rows, and then get rid of the motor and ignition buttons, and add an "Edit" button. That would bring up a dialog specific to a single configuration, in which you'd have buttons or, perhaps better, dropdowns for each motor mount.

The point is, to my mind, trying to make all motors for all configurations editable from a single tab puts too much of a load on the user interface.

My concern with the older interface was how interminably long it took to accomplish certain simple tasks. I don't want to add 2 more clicks to each single-motor-mount configuration; in a cluster rocket with 4 MMT groups (aka the typical 7 motor cluster) that would end up being 6 more clicks per configuration, on top of the greater variety of configurations there would be to simulate!

Even worse, because of the way it hid the configurations in a dropdown box, there was no way to check "Have I done this configuration before?" in the old interface.

The additional pointing tasks, and the hiding of information, made setting up large numbers of configurations interminably slow.


For a streamlined, power-user friendly interface, the number of clicks should be minimized, and helpful visual information (such as what other configurations are already set up) should not be hidden. Case in point: you suggested using dropdown boxes.

Dropdown boxes are the worst of both worlds: it takes two clicks to do what could otherwise be done in one with checkboxes or a table, and it hides the options until you make the first click, delaying the decision further.


You are concerned with visual clutter: one man's trash [clutter] is another man's treasure [helpful information]. Instead of simply hiding clutter [useful information] away, the proper response is to provide visual clues for navigating clutter.

========================================

I just created a new file with a nosecone and a body tube just to see what a new user sees.

First.jpg

What do I do here? I click "New Configuration" and get nothing.

Here's what it ought to look like:

First_improved.jpg

Note that a) the user is not allowed to make a configuration, and b) there is a big highlighted box telling them COME HERE NEXT.

We can't really automate the selection for them, because it'd be very hard to figure out which tube is the one they want. So we use color to point them toward a list of all the options (one in this case), and give them a choice. Once they make their choice, the box would turn back to white.

Once they do that, they currently have to create a configuration. This shouldn't be. Selecting a motor mount should automatically create a configuration if there was none to start.

As it is now, once they figure out to create a configuration, they get to this stage. I presume this is where confusion REALLY sets in:

Second.jpg

"I've chosen my motor mount, I've made a configuration. What now?

The key here is in the implementation details: if a configuration is newly created, it should be immediately selected so that the user learns that it needs to be selected. That holds true whether the configuration was created by the "New Configuration" button or by selecting the motor mount. By showing them that configurations, when selected, let you choose motors, they will not need to be told to do so.
 
Last edited:
My concern with the older interface was how interminably long it took to accomplish certain simple tasks. I don't want to add 2 more clicks to each single-motor-mount configuration; in a cluster rocket with 4 MMT groups (aka the typical 7 motor cluster) that would end up being 6 more clicks per configuration, on top of the greater variety of configurations there would be to simulate!
In what I was suggesting, there are only 2 more. One click to get into a dialog that's functionally like the present configuration tab, but specific to the configuration being edited, and one to get out, back to the configuration tab.

Even worse, because of the way it hid the configurations in a dropdown box, there was no way to check "Have I done this configuration before?" in the old interface.
The dialog to edit a configuration need not cover up the configuration tab ? at least if you have the screen real estate.

No, it wouldn't be perfect from your point of view; but nothing's perfect from everyone's. And I'm not saying this is the best or only way to go. Just an uncluttered, beginner-friendlier alternative to consider.
 
While the last post detailed a new user's case with the simplest possible rocket, this is an example showing why I wanted the changes made.


This is 13.09, the old UI.

oldcluster.jpg

How many configurations do I have? What are they like? I have no clue.

Here's 13.11.1, with the new UI.

ClusterExample.jpg

At a glance, I see there are 16 configurations. Some have one motor, some have only outboards, and some have a mix.


The difference I'm trying to show here is visibility.

The old UI hides everything away. This makes it simple for simple setups, but it is useless for complicated ones. The new UI shows all the information at once.

The other difference I can't show, though: the difference in speed. Because everything is on the surface already, I don't have to open the configuration editor (one click), navigate in the drop-down box (click, scroll, click), and then double-click on the motor mount. I just go to the configurations tab (one click) and double click on the right spot in the table. Two clicks, versus 4 clicks plus scrolling, makes a world of difference.
 
In what I was suggesting, there are only 2 more. One click to get into a dialog that's functionally like the present configuration tab, but specific to the configuration being edited, and one to get out, back to the configuration tab.

The dialog to edit a configuration need not cover up the configuration tab ? at least if you have the screen real estate.

If you hide the information on the configuration tab, then there's no point in not covering it up.

No, it wouldn't be perfect from your point of view; but nothing's perfect from everyone's. And I'm not saying this is the best or only way to go. Just an uncluttered, beginner-friendlier alternative to consider.

Clutter is where having too many controls or information impedes your ability to find things.

This isn't cause of the problem right now: the issue is that for an unfamiliar user, there are no instructions or guidance as to what to do. It's not due to information overload.

When I revisited 13.09, I noticed that there used to be instructions telling the user what to do. I believe this is what is needed: don't rip up all of the roads because people get lost---install road signs.
 
Last edited:
I apologize I have not read through all of the responses accross the multiple threads.

What if there was a button that said "Add Motors", this took you to the place to sort through motors or pick a motor mount. If a body tube is not selected as the motor mount maybe a pop up that says "Would you like to select XXXXX as a motor mount".

Just an idea.
 
I apologize I have not read through all of the responses accross the multiple threads.

What if there was a button that said "Add Motors", this took you to the place to sort through motors or pick a motor mount. If a body tube is not selected as the motor mount maybe a pop up that says "Would you like to select XXXXX as a motor mount".

Just an idea.

In general yes, in specifics, not really. Maybe.

Instead of a button, renaming the tab to "Motor and Recovery Configuration" ought to suffice.

However, a pop-up prompting you to select motor mounts when none is selected could help.

The devil is in the details, though; read the whole thread carefully. The leap of logic that isn't apparent immediately is why the "select motors" button is gray: because you have to highlight the motor mount in the configurationn.
 
I am not a power user. Would there be a way have a setting under a preferences setup on the Interface to allow you to click a check box to have your very advanced usage needs and scenarios. And a possibly simpler set up for say a non clustered single motor rocket. The new interface is not intuitive to me. But the program is very valuable to me and I will adapt.
 
Would renaming the tab to "motor configurations" do the trick?

How about just calling the tab "Motors"? (keep is simple) It is, after all, all about motors, ejection and staging. It did take a moment to get used to, but I see the benefit. It allows you to make all of the changes that pertain to motors in one tab. For an "Alpha", it's not an improvement (and neither is it any worse), but for a more complex rocket like a Mongoose (I know... really complex), it is a nice feature. For rockets with electronic staging and/or recovery deployment it would be REALLY nice.

I also like the new motor selection tab. Lots of nice parameters, OR I can just type in A10, and go straight to the motor I was after.

On the whole, after about 5 minutes of tinkering, I find the new interface to be very nice, and of real use. It makes me happy.

Thanks for all the hard work! I have really enjoyed using OR and watching it grow. It really is a very slick chunk of software.
 
Last edited:
Hi everyone,

Sorry for not chiming in earlier. When I added the ability to configure more components (ignition, staging and recovery) it was driven by my desire to experiment with more advanced HPR rockets (which I have yet to do). With the more advanced features, I tried to make the old motor chooser dialog support these advanced configurations, but as Carlo pointed out the drop down was really painful. After using the program with the drop down, I too became very discouraged trying to configure a rocket (even a simple one). The table layout is much better. It too has problems for really advanced rockets - try one with too many motors and the columns become very difficult to use. But I think in general it is very easy to use.

I apologize I have not read through all of the responses accross the multiple threads.

What if there was a button that said "Add Motors", this took you to the place to sort through motors or pick a motor mount. If a body tube is not selected as the motor mount maybe a pop up that says "Would you like to select XXXXX as a motor mount".

Just an idea.

I had thought about trying to keep the old dialog which was accessed by "edit" buttons in the rocket figure and the body tube motor tab. However, this has a few problems. If there are two ways to configure things, you end up with troubles trying to talk to users about how it should work. Further you have two different sets of UI code to maintain.

Along these lines, I did think about making the "motor mount check box thing" a pop up dialog instead of being embedded in the motor tab. However, I couldn't really figure out when it should appear.

I am not a power user. Would there be a way have a setting under a preferences setup on the Interface to allow you to click a check box to have your very advanced usage needs and scenarios. And a possibly simpler set up for say a non clustered single motor rocket. The new interface is not intuitive to me. But the program is very valuable to me and I will adapt.

An "advanced" check box is an idea I had thought about. However, again, you end up with two different sets of code. Further, since I'm an advanced user, I probably wouldn't end up using the program with out that box checked, and therefore bugs in the beginner mode would be much more common. More bugs means more discouraged users.

How about just calling the tab "Motors"? (keep is simple) It is, after all, all about motors, ejection and staging. It did take a moment to get used to, but I see the benefit. It allows you to make all of the changes that pertain to motors in one tab. For an "Alpha", it's not an improvement (and neither is it any worse), but for a more complex rocket like a Mongoose (I know... really complex), it is a nice feature. For rockets with electronic staging and/or recovery deployment it would be REALLY nice.

I also like the new motor selection tab. Lots of nice parameters, OR I can just type in A10, and go straight to the motor I was after.

On the whole, after about 5 minutes of tinkering, I find the new interface to be very nice, and of real use. It makes me happy.

Thanks for all the hard work! I have really enjoyed using OR and watching it grow. It really is a very slick chunk of software.

I don't really like calling the tab "motors". Soon I plan on adding configurable mass objects (some people do have rockets with variable nose weights), and optional components (like motor adapters, maybe). Its not all about motors - its about setting up your rocket for flight.

I believe the best way help new users would be to have a series of videos or better wiki pages to help them understand how to use the program. This is something that almost anyone can help with. If you want to contribute to documentation or produce some simple videos, let me know.

Kevin
 
ok,

I have read through this entire thread which has resulted in becoming more lost! Yes, I am not your average idiot, but a high quality idiot (I am a middle school teacher).

I simply cannot follow through this thread "what do I do today to get motors into the simulation?"

I am using OR 13.11.2

I have the motor files in my computer, but apparently I get stuck on adding motors. The "select motor" tab is grey when I am in the motors&configuration tab.

With all of this chatter about improvements to the program, I can't see through the forest for this question to be answered!
 
To activate the "select motor" tab you first need to click on "New Configuration". Then on click on "None" which is found under the "Body tube" field. Now you can select the motor.
 
Most established windows applications have at least 3 ways of doing something. So that seems to be what most users are used to. Instead of having a best way, having a few good ways, where almost everybody is going to find one that's convenient. Programming it is often easy to find a great new way to do something, but to the end user it amounts to "hiding"the feature. You, or we could add documentation forever, but having your program work like all the rest of the programs we all use (when not playing freecell) would allow the vast majority of us to get the full benefit of all of your much appreciated hard work.:cyclops:
 
Back
Top