E12 CATO

Onebadhawk
Wildman Rocketry
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Damn, that's a nasty one! Spectacular none the less.
 
Any chance to have a slow motion on this one JF ?
 
I put this in a comment on the YouTube page, but I'll put it here as well:

I see snow on the ground. Note that it has been observed that thermal cycling catos usually happen when there is a differential of approx 75 degrees F between the hottest temp the motors have gotten and their temperature at launch. The effect is greater in larger black powder motors. Be extremely careful flying large black powder motors in cold weather.

For instance. If it is possible that the motors have spent some time around 120 degrees F (say in a shipping van on a hot day in July), don't fly them if the current temp is 45 F or below!
 
RoyAtl said:
I put this in a comment on the YouTube page, but I'll put it here as well: I see snow on the ground. Note that it has been observed that thermal cycling catos usually happen when there is a differential of approx 75 degrees F between the hottest temp the motors have gotten and their temperature at launch. The effect is greater in larger black powder motors. Be extremely careful flying large black powder motors in cold weather. For instance. If it is possible that the motors have spent some time around 120 degrees F (say in a shipping van on a hot day in July), don't fly them if the current temp is 45 F or below!
Click to expand...

Interesting info. I had a similar issue last June with an E12-0. The temperature was around 80F. Also, I have flown E9 clusters in coder temperatures before without any issues. For some reasons, the E12 are more prone to CATOS.

JF
 
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Area66 said:
Any chance to have a slow motion on this one JF ?
Click to expand...
The first 22sec. of the video are normal speed. From 23sec to 28sec. its is a slow motion of the explosion at 20 % of the speed, then you get some pictures. I may try to make a fancier version this weekend if I have some time.

JF
 
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Do you have the date code from the motors?

Just want to confirm that they were from the first well-known often-reported manufacturing date with the observed problems. I have seen zero failures of all other later date code E12 motors of all delay times.


jfrocketry said:
Yesterday, I had the good idea of flying my good old Loc Viper-III with 3 E12-6. I guess I won the lottery, the 3 motors cato. You can see the video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kJQXDQi5Cto

JF
Click to expand...
 
shreadvector said:
Do you have the date code from the motors?

Just want to confirm that they were from the first well-known often-reported manufacturing date with the observed problems. I have seen zero failures of all other later date code E12 motors of all delay times.
Click to expand...

Saw two from a different date code blow up last Saturday, maybe Mr. dpower will weigh in on the specifics.
 
File a MESS report and e-mail Estes with the video. I can feel your pain. But remember, "If it works, it's cool and if it doesn't work, it's REALLY cool."

Mike
 
jfrocketry said:
Interesting info. I had a similar issue last June with an E12-0. The temperature was around 80F. Also, I have flown E9 clusters in coder temperatures before without any issues. For some reasons, the E12 are more prone to CATOS.

JF
Click to expand...

There *are* other reasons that large black powder motors can cato. And motors that are fired more than 70-80 degrees lower than their maximum exposure *can* work well. It is just well-observed that they are more likely to fail.
 
How long before you get an answer from estes customers service? I sent them a message Wednesday night, now reply yet.
 
In addition to the "8 18 11" date codes, also beware of "11 15 11" date codes, I've had 2/4 cato from this lot, so far...

BTW, that was a spectacular cato, three for three!
 
dpower said:
In addition to the "8 18 11" date codes, also beware of "11 15 11" date codes, I've had 2/4 cato from this lot, so far...
Click to expand...

From different packages, purchased at different times or from different vendors? Post-packaging treatment (dropping, storing in high temperatures) could be responsible.
 
Yep, we had one cato last saturday, and I had one blow through the top at desert heat last year. Both caused loss of airframe.
 
Zonie said:
Yep, we had one cato last saturday, and I had one blow through the top at desert heat last year. Both caused loss of airframe.
Click to expand...

Need date codes with these reports - otherwise we who have seen over a hundred E12 launches will just attribute the failure reports to the one known date code with problems.
 
shreadvector said:
Need date codes with these reports - otherwise we who have seen over a hundred E12 launches will just attribute the failure reports to the one known date code with problems.
Click to expand...

they musta made a hell of a lot of motors on that day.

just for giggles, i took this at URRF, the spitfire next to it spit the nozzle too.

9121379963_4c87aa6d16_z.jpg
 
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A bunch were flown at our launch today including 3 or 4 from the known scary date code. All worked perfectly.

Lots of F15 and E16 flights as well - also perfect.
 

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