Zooch Saturn 1B with Racer's Artwork

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Owen Eldridge said:
I think everyone has a balsa stripper but me...
Click to expand...

jsargevt said:
If it makes you feel any better I don't have one either.

Excellent build thread though! Thanks for the posts and lively discussion so far.
Click to expand...

Well, a balsa stripper is not exactly a must have item for model rocketry (unless you build rocket gliders, I suppose). I just happened to have one. Now, if you're going to build a stick-n-tissue aircraft model from scratch...
 
I made a mistake with my engine hook placement (actually, the error was with tank placement). The 1B has 8 tanks and 8 engines. The 8 engines align radially between each tank. There are 4 black tanks and 4 white ones. So, the outer 4 engines align with the between-tank gap, where the tank on the right is white, and the inner 4 engines align with the gap, where the white tank is on the left. I needed to put the engine hook where an inner engine would exist (since we don't model those). I mistakenly put it where an outer engine sits.

I guess I have three options:

  1. Rebuild this tank assembly, for the second time (not a chance).
  2. Only install 3 of the H-1 engines (meh).
  3. Put the outer H-1 engines in the wrong place (rotate the assembly by 45 degrees), and hope nobody notices.

Anyway, I've edited post #27 to expose the mistake, in case someone tries to follow all this.
 
your first stage looks great to me Himitsu!

himitsu said:
I didn't think of that, but I remember the same thing happened when I put together the tank assembly the first time. Apparently the seam in the back makes the tank "uncomfortable", and so it rolls to the side, like an egg rolling off of its narrow end. I actually glued the tanks for another reason, because I had to attach them before I installed the lower BT-60; otherwise, getting past the kevlar loop would turn into a problem.

BTW, slid on the lower BT-60 of the thrust structure without any struggle. I'm now to the point I was before I created this thread, but this time I'm happy with the tank assembly. The tanks either just make contact with the BT-60, or apply a negligible amount of pressure. Nothing looks distorted from any angle. Here it is (well, just one angle, but the others look good too).

View attachment 156282
Click to expand...
 
Hi Owen...the balsa stripper tool comes in handy...you'll be surprised how often you use it...especially if you are building Dr. Zooch Saturn 1bs! great for spider beams and cable tunnels!
 
I would thing option 3 is the most reasonable Himitsu...remember, this is ant scale...your stage looks great!

himitsu said:
I made a mistake with my engine hook placement (actually, the error was with tank placement). The 1B has 8 tanks and 8 engines. The 8 engines align radially between each tank. There are 4 black tanks and 4 white ones. So, the outer 4 engines align with the between-tank gap, where the tank on the right is white, and the inner 4 engines align with the gap, where the white tank is on the left. I needed to put the engine hook where an inner engine would exist (since we don't model those). I mistakenly put it where an outer engine sits.

I guess I have three options:

  1. Rebuild this tank assembly, for the second time (not a chance).
  2. Only install 3 of the H-1 engines (meh).
  3. Put the outer H-1 engines in the wrong place (rotate the assembly by 45 degrees), and hope nobody notices.

Anyway, I've edited post #27 to expose the mistake, in case someone tries to follow all this.
Click to expand...
 
The Dr. Zooch tubes are of good quality. The primary spiral gap is so small that I think I can overcome it with just primer. However, the secondary spiral gap was a bit of a concern. By secondary spiral gap, I mean the gap in the next layer of paper below. The outer most layer of paper covers this gap, but you can still see it. It's basically a long thin air pocket, and if you don't "treat it" it can sometimes reappear months after you completed your "perfect" finish. I presume it might expand and contract due to variations in temperature, humidity, and air pressure.

So, I cut out the paper spanning the secondary spiral gap. The following picture shows some of the paper "wires" that came out when I scribed both sides of the gap with my knife. This step didn't get all of the paper out, so I turned my knife upside down and plowed it through the spiral pushing the paper on either side upward. Did this "plowing" step a few times before the paper would remain upright. Note: if you enlarge the photo you can see the modest primary spiral gap located halfway between the now-lacerated secondary spiral gaps.

IMG_0701.jpg

Then, I flooded the exposed spiral with thin CA to harden the paper in its upright position. I scraped this standing paper off with my knife, and then sanded away the rest. Note: before I applied the thin CA, I blackened the inside of the large tube at one end (using a Sharpie). After the ink dried, I sealed it with thin CA (at the same time I flooded the spiral). This blackened end of the tube will eventually slide over the top of the tank assembly (by about 1/16").

IMG_0739.jpg

Finally, I filled the spirals with CWF (used white filler on the small tube), sanded, and flooded the now-filled spiral with CA, again (to seal the filler), and then sanded once more.

IMG_0785.jpg
 
NJRick said:
I would thing option 3 is the most reasonable Himitsu...remember, this is ant scale...your stage looks great!
Click to expand...

Looking good...

Rick's right... just chalk it up to a learning experience-- something to do different on the next one...

Sometimes "fixing things" can mess them up worse than they were to start with...

Later and good luck! OL JR :)
 
AfterBurners said:
What does the blackening of the end do? Just curious??
Click to expand...

The lower 1/16" of the inside of that tube actually becomes an outside surface. Once installed, it'll extend just beyond the blackened centering ring (by 1/16") to "capture" the tops of the tanks. So, if you look up underneath, you might catch a glimpse of the inside tube wall. Now, it'll be all black.

IMG_0896.jpg
 
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luke strawwalker said:
Rick's right... just chalk it up to a learning experience-- something to do different on the next one...
Click to expand...

Agreed. That's what I intend to do. Only someone with an unusual familiarity with the appearance of the Apollo 7 Saturn 1B, or someone scrutinizing the model against the drawings or photos, would be able to detect the error, anyway.
 
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Here's what I got with the kit. Some well-crafted balsa turnings with a lot of end grain to fill (and some dings and gouges courtesy of UPS). The top of the transition section reveals the filler used to conceal and secure the nose weight (probably a slug of depleted uranium). I did notice, however, that the sides of the transition section were just a tad concave, something easily subdued with an application of CWF (and some sanding).

IMG_0812.jpg

I first doused both balsa pieces with thin CA. This does harden the balsa, but more importantly, it seals it. I'm going to dilute the CWF, and I don't want water to get into (and expand) the balsa grain. Applied diluted CWF, and did a rough sanding with 150 grit (using an aluminum sanding bar). Applied CA again, to seal the CWF. I also drilled a 1/4" diameter hole 3/16" deep with a Forster Bit to accept the screw eye.

IMG_0960.jpgIMG_0884.jpg
 
Since the beginning, rocketeers have violated one of the cardinal rules of wood joinery: never put a fastener into the end grain, but our founding fathers (of rocketry) did the unthinkable, and simply drove screw eyes into the end grain of their balsa nose cones. Others followed, and the practice became canonized in the instructions of countless model rocket kits.

Some, regarding themselves as clever, advised to apply a drop of glue to the screw eye to help secure it, but doing this only managed to get glue onto the wood whose fibers became severed by the screw eye's threads (the strength of the wood is in the fibers)! That is why, through the decades, many a tearful rocketeer would only recover the lower portion of their rocket, a parachute, and a screw eye possessing a core sample of the missing upper section. Many withdrew from the hobby on account of this.

Enough of this old practice!

View attachment 156488IMG_0917.jpg
 
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looks good Himitsu!

himitsu said:
Here's what I got with the kit. Some well-crafted balsa turnings with a lot of end grain to fill (and some dings and gouges courtesy of UPS). The top of the transition section reveals the filler used to conceal and secure the nose weight (probably a slug of depleted uranium). I did notice, however, that the sides of the transition section were just a tad concave, something easily subdued with an application of CWF (and some sanding).

View attachment 156486

I first doused both balsa pieces with thin CA. This does harden the balsa, but more importantly, it seals it. I'm going to dilute the CWF, and I don't want water to get into (and expand) the balsa grain. Applied diluted CWF, and did a rough sanding with 150 grit (using an aluminum sanding bar). Applied CA again, to seal the CWF. I also drilled a 1/4" diameter hole 3/16" deep with a Forster Bit to accept the screw eye.

View attachment 156487View attachment 156488
Click to expand...
 
himitsu said:
Since the beginning, rocketeers have violated one of the cardinal rules of wood joinery: never put a fastener into the end grain, but our founding fathers (of rocketry) did the unthinkable, and simply drove screw eyes into the end grain of their balsa nose cones. Others followed, and the practice became canonized in the instructions of countless model rocket kits.

Some, regarding themselves as clever, advised to apply a drop of glue to the screw eye to help secure it, but doing this only managed to get glue onto the wood whose fibers became severed by the screw eye's threads (the strength of the wood is in the fibers)! That is why, through the decades, many a tearful rocketeer would only recover the lower portion of their rocket, a parachute, and a screw eye possessing a core sample of the missing upper section. Many withdrew from the hobby on account of this.

Enough of this old practice!

View attachment 156488View attachment 156489
Click to expand...

Hmmm... interesting...

I've never had a problem with it, but hey, if it works for you, go for it...

Later! OL JR :)
 
luke strawwalker said:
I've never had a problem with it, but hey, if it works for you, go for it...
Click to expand...

Yup. It works for me. Here's something else that works... (those plugs are 9-ply balsa plywood, and a kevlar shock cord substitutes for the screw eye)

IMG_0121.jpg
 
himitsu said:
Since the beginning, rocketeers have violated one of the cardinal rules of wood joinery: never put a fastener into the end grain, but our founding fathers (of rocketry) did the unthinkable, and simply drove screw eyes into the end grain of their balsa nose cones. Others followed, and the practice became canonized in the instructions of countless model rocket kits.

Some, regarding themselves as clever, advised to apply a drop of glue to the screw eye to help secure it, but doing this only managed to get glue onto the wood whose fibers became severed by the screw eye's threads (the strength of the wood is in the fibers)! That is why, through the decades, many a tearful rocketeer would only recover the lower portion of their rocket, a parachute, and a screw eye possessing a core sample of the missing upper section. Many withdrew from the hobby on account of this.

Enough of this old practice!

View attachment 156488View attachment 156489
Click to expand...


Hmmm. Over 40 years (although including a couple decade-plus breaks), building maybe 100 rockets and certainly several hundred flights, I don't know if I ever remember a screw eye pulling out of a nose cone. And I have had some rockets with hefty payload sections and ballast-weighted nose cones, too. (I have had a few Estes Dents, but I don't ever remember the screw eye pulling out.)

I have almost always used the 'conventional' glue-in method of screw eye mounting as described above.

Seems to me we may have a solution here in search of a problem. Is your suggested alternative to drill the hole and then mount the screw eye in epoxy?


Sorry for the threadjack -- back to the 1B build.
 
JStarStar said:
Hmmm. Over 40 years (although including a couple decade-plus breaks), building maybe 100 rockets and certainly several hundred flights, I don't know if I ever remember a screw eye pulling out of a nose cone. And I have had some rockets with hefty payload sections and ballast-weighted nose cones, too. (I have had a few Estes Dents, but I don't ever remember the screw eye pulling out.)

I have almost always used the 'conventional' glue-in method of screw eye mounting as described above.

Seems to me we may have a solution here in search of a problem. Is your suggested alternative to drill the hole and then mount the screw eye in epoxy?


Sorry for the threadjack -- back to the 1B build.
Click to expand...

Agree completely...

BUT, then again, maybe HE has had this problem happen to him... if so, it looks like an effective fix...

But for the other 99.9% of us, maybe not so much... YMMV...

Later! OL JR :)

PS. I would like to see this build completed! Great work so far... :)
 
I have been waiting a while to see himitsu's finished 1B.
After the feedback I decided to build another of Dr. Z's 1B closely following his instructions to test Rev 5 of the wraps.

Untitled.jpg

On the left we have the tank from Rev 5 and on the right we have Rev 1 of the wraps. On both the details show, even if it is almost flush to the lower BT-60. Most of the time the errors in printing are that the user does not select the "Actual Size" option on the printing window. But this did not make me happy about the wraps...

... So I decided it was time to revisit the wraps. Looks like I do it every January as all past revisions happen during that month... After looking at the pictures I have on the 1B several corrections were made, specially on the tanks for a better representation of the real thing. Most changes cannot be noticed from a distance, but if you are like me, I like to get "close and personal" with my rockets, for me the difference is in the small details. Changes include:

Smaller Changes:
- relocating the lower FUEL Fill and Drain ports to a higher point
- resizing the white lettering area on the black tanks
- resizing the red UNITED STATES on the tanks
- changed the red on the lettering to a more "darker red"
- all "rivets" are now round. They used to be squared, no one ever noticed, not at that scale anyway
- lower rivet details are now located higher above the BT-60
- added "rivet" details to the black tanks
- added a "rivet" reference line to the upper portion of the white tanks to help the builder during Step 9, which calls to have the upper BT-60 hang 1/16" below centering ring #3

Bigger Changes:
- Rewrote the instructions to reflect some updates and past feedback
- Removed the Capsule wrap that was based on the old Centuri Saturn V
- Changed the instruction font color to gray to save some black ink during printing
- Saved the PDF at a resolution of 720 dpi
- rearranged some of the printing wraps

Best Change:
- Made tanks for all the Saturn 1B missions (201-210), to include 209 which was a contingency/backup vehicle and it is now on display at the KSCV complex in FLA

I just printed a set of wraps on 24lbs bright white paper on high setting and they turned out fine. The rivet lines may be too thin but one can see them. Would like to take these to Office Depot and have them printed there to see how they look.

Want / Need a copy? Send me a PM with your email address and request a copy.
 
thank you Rosko!! PM sent!!

rosko_racer said:
I have been waiting a while to see himitsu's finished 1B.
After the feedback I decided to build another of Dr. Z's 1B closely following his instructions to test Rev 5 of the wraps.

View attachment 159779

On the left we have the tank from Rev 5 and on the right we have Rev 1 of the wraps. On both the details show, even if it is almost flush to the lower BT-60. Most of the time the errors in printing are that the user does not select the "Actual Size" option on the printing window. But this did not make me happy about the wraps...

... So I decided it was time to revisit the wraps. Looks like I do it every January as all past revisions happen during that month... After looking at the pictures I have on the 1B several corrections were made, specially on the tanks for a better representation of the real thing. Most changes cannot be noticed from a distance, but if you are like me, I like to get "close and personal" with my rockets, for me the difference is in the small details. Changes include:

Smaller Changes:
- relocating the lower FUEL Fill and Drain ports to a higher point
- resizing the white lettering area on the black tanks
- resizing the red UNITED STATES on the tanks
- changed the red on the lettering to a more "darker red"
- all "rivets" are now round. They used to be squared, no one ever noticed, not at that scale anyway
- lower rivet details are now located higher above the BT-60
- added "rivet" details to the black tanks
- added a "rivet" reference line to the upper portion of the white tanks to help the builder during Step 9, which calls to have the upper BT-60 hang 1/16" below centering ring #3

Bigger Changes:
- Rewrote the instructions to reflect some updates and past feedback
- Removed the Capsule wrap that was based on the old Centuri Saturn V
- Changed the instruction font color to gray to save some black ink during printing
- Saved the PDF at a resolution of 720 dpi
- rearranged some of the printing wraps

Best Change:
- Made tanks for all the Saturn 1B missions (201-210), to include 209 which was a contingency/backup vehicle and it is now on display at the KSCV complex in FLA

I just printed a set of wraps on 24lbs bright white paper on high setting and they turned out fine. The rivet lines may be too thin but one can see them. Would like to take these to Office Depot and have them printed there to see how they look.

Want / Need a copy? Send me a PM with your email address and request a copy.
Click to expand...
 
Rosko Racer! That's wonderful news regarding your updated 1B wraps! I too will PM you and plead for a copy of your meticulously crafted work, in the not-too-distant future. I'm sure I'll revisit the Zooch 1B again, just to create one using your artwork, after I complete this one, of course.

I see that I missed quite a few interesting developments on TRF, and some of them on this thread that I've neglected. Sorry. I hope to be back at this in a few more weeks. My days since the beginning of the year have been filled with other priorities including light construction projects, moving family members (twice), and especially my DSNIL (Do Something New In Life) project. I've spent quite a few hours at the local TechShop picking up all kinds of new skills, including ShopBot, wood lathe, metal lathe (I'm pretty good at metal turning, now--well, aluminum, at least), milling machine, the IronWorker, media blasting, power coating, laser cutting, TIG and MIG welding (I still can't weld very well, though), and most recently, the waterjet cutting machine. Yes, I've taken almost every Safety and Basic Use Class offered by TechShop. It's all wonderful fun. I think I've now become a proper member of the Maker Movement.

Nonetheless, I occasionally still feel the sting of inadequacy whenever I see or hear one of those beer commercials concerning the most interesting man alive.

I know, I just hijacked my own thread.
 
Good to see you back, Goldar...

Yeah, I've had the itch to take some classes too... glad to see I'm not the only one...

I want to take a welding class, but a machining class sounds really interesting too... I weld fairly well, being doing it since I was about 15 here on the farm, mostly with stick machines (SMAW). Do a little DC but mostly AC welding, lots of out of position stuff, especially on rusty farm machinery...
I'm "okay" and can do some pretty good welding if I'm "in position" (I built a HD trailer years ago and I was surprised at how pretty the welds were when I looked at it recently) but lots of times it's "get it fixed and get back to work" and prettiness doesn't come into it. The last welding training I had (other than reading some books) was back in high school...

Glad to see you back... take it easy and looking forward to reading your posts!
Later!
OL JR :)
 
sorry for my late reply Himitsu...but welcome back! we are all anxious to see your 1b!!

himitsu said:
Rosko Racer! That's wonderful news regarding your updated 1B wraps! I too will PM you and plead for a copy of your meticulously crafted work, in the not-too-distant future. I'm sure I'll revisit the Zooch 1B again, just to create one using your artwork, after I complete this one, of course.

I see that I missed quite a few interesting developments on TRF, and some of them on this thread that I've neglected. Sorry. I hope to be back at this in a few more weeks. My days since the beginning of the year have been filled with other priorities including light construction projects, moving family members (twice), and especially my DSNIL (Do Something New In Life) project. I've spent quite a few hours at the local TechShop picking up all kinds of new skills, including ShopBot, wood lathe, metal lathe (I'm pretty good at metal turning, now--well, aluminum, at least), milling machine, the IronWorker, media blasting, power coating, laser cutting, TIG and MIG welding (I still can't weld very well, though), and most recently, the waterjet cutting machine. Yes, I've taken almost every Safety and Basic Use Class offered by TechShop. It's all wonderful fun. I think I've now become a proper member of the Maker Movement.

Nonetheless, I occasionally still feel the sting of inadequacy whenever I see or hear one of those beer commercials concerning the most interesting man alive.

I know, I just hijacked my own thread.
Click to expand...
 

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