Nose Cone Preference

I'm sure some scratch builders could have some say about this subject. There are a great many sizes, lengths & variations of nose cones, but they boil down to a few basic categories. Conical, Ogive & Elliptical. And if you wish to include complex NC's like those with towers and intakes and such, so be it. But as a designer, I'm usually drawn to a style that appeals to me which pretty much defines the overall look of my design. The fins....well, that is indeed another defining category. But importantly, the NC must compliment and or perform adequately with the fins and the overall aesthetic look of a model rocket. That's my take on it and I'm sticking to it.

Now, which shape catches your eye the most? My preferred shape is Ogive and anything that resembles it. My pick of the litter is the 55 AC. That, and anything in any size tube that shape will fit. The 55 AC has to be one of the most impressive NC's I've ever worked with. That Ogive shape is on a great many of my rockets. I'd like to know what your preference is.

I have bought quite a few SEMROC "G" series cones. Labled G3, G4, G5 and a BNC60 G36. The curve on these cones just seem "slicker" for want of a better word. I built a 3 engine cluster that features 3 of the "G" series cones, 2 BNC60 G3 on the boosters and a BNC 70 G3 on the main booster section. I'm where I don't buy for specific builds, I buy for stock. It's nice to look in a drawer and see several of a size to choose from

My favorite shape all day long is the PNC-50Y. The old blow molded version used on the Icarus, Polaris, Avenger and MANY others. I hope they bring that one back.

dave carver said:

I have bought quite a few SEMROC "G" series cones. Labled G3, G4, G5 and a BNC60 G36. The curve on these cones just seem "slicker" for want of a better word. I built a 3 engine cluster that features 3 of the "G" series cones, 2 BNC60 G3 on the boosters and a BNC 70 G3 on the main booster section. I'm where I don't buy for specific builds, I buy for stock. It's nice to look in a drawer and see several of a size to choose from

Click to expand...

So, what's it gonna be? Conical, Ogive or Elliptical?

rokitflite said:

My favorite shape all day long is the PNC-50Y. The old blow molded version used on the Icarus, Polaris, Avenger and MANY others. I hope they bring that one back.

Click to expand...

Oh man! I think I still have a couple of those. That is a good looking NC. Mine are balsa though.

Question: if elliptical nosecones have less drag when subsonic (as I've seen claimed in a few places), why are ogives the most commonly seen/produced nose shape? Is it simply aesthetics?
Ogives aren't optimal at transsonic/supersonic either, where I'd expect to see von Karman noses.

...also, what are good places to find plastic von Karman nosecones?

I don't think there are any plastic von Karman nosecones except for the 54mm Space Cowboy.

I like loooooooong nosecones, no matter the shape. Bare Necessities had 7.2:1 plain conical and it was awesome.

I tend to favor the 55 AC, too. I also like long ellipticals (especially if the front portion of the rocket features a larger diameter), it depends on how well it fits with the rest of the airframe. However, I never get much inspiration from a conical nose cone (long or short), although I do like well-crafted scale models (with the required conical nose cone).

Gary Byrum said:

So, what's it gonna be? Conical, Ogive or Elliptical?

Click to expand...

Ogive.

I'm a fan of Secant Ogives... My favorites are the Estes PNC-50Y (Supernova, Yellow Jacket, Centuri Spirit of America), PNC-55AC (Cheorkee D, Defender, CC Express), PNC-60AH (Mean Machine, Der Red Max) (and related variants (PNC-60RL (Magnum, Sentinel, Hi-Flier XL), and part# 072665 (QCC Explorer, Solar Warrior)), and most (but not all) of the Semroc upscales of such. I really wish I could find a PNC-60AC (or BNC-60AC) that would be a true upscale of the PNC-55AC for ~$11.00 USD.

I think it depends upon the rocket. Short, fat rockets look better with an elliptical. Long, skinny rockets look better with a conical nose cone. Between the two extremes, it depends on the rest of the rocket, hard to day exactly. This is just my opinion.

An example of this is the Estes Fat Boy. Short, fat rocket - elliptical nose cone. After many rebuilds, my Fat Boy is now over 24 inches tall. Just doesn't look as good as the "shorty". No, I don't really like Berthas, maybe because of the nose cone. I guess the Big Daddy is an exception, but few rules are hard and fast.

K'Tesh said:

I'm a fan of Secant Ogives... My favorites are the Estes PNC-50Y (Supernova, Yellow Jacket, Centuri Spirit of America), PNC-55AC (Cheorkee D, Defender, CC Express), PNC-60AH (Mean Machine, Der Red Max) (and related variants (Magnum, Hi-Flier XL, QCC Explorer, Solar Warrior), and most (but not all) of the Semroc upscales of such. I really wish I could find a PNC-60AC (or BNC-60AC) that would be a true upscale of the PNC-55AC for ~$11.00 USD.

Click to expand...

The only one of those that is a Secant Ogive is the 55AC. The rest are Tangent Ogives (some blunted or rounded) as are almost all ogive nosecones on the market. The Semroc upscales of the AC shape are all good as far as I can tell (I have the Semroc ARCAS of course, and the Hawks Hobby Cherokee which uses a Semroc nose cone, and as far as I can tell they are proper upscales.

I guess maybe the newer pnc-50y may be a tad secant. I prefer the old 50Y shape which is tangent but also a little wider toward the tip. I mean, it was plotted free-hand with a french curve rather than calculated, and then with the old balsa cones, the plunge grinder added variations on the shape as it wore down!

Generally speaking, ogives. But, as mentioned before, it depends on the look you're going for.

I'm looking at a BC-848 (Starfire nose cone) right now and it's pretty sweet. Long, lean and pointy.

Anyone who understands the Centuri numbering system gets a big "hats off" from me.

If it's for a scale model then I'll buy whichever cone looks like the one on thing I'm modelling.

Otherwise I tend to go for a conical cone. I can roll that from paper, meaning I don't need to buy anything.

CarVac said:

I don't think there are any plastic von Karman nosecones except for the 54mm Space Cowboy.

I like loooooooong nosecones, no matter the shape. Bare Necessities had 7.2:1 plain conical and it was awesome.

Click to expand...

+1! The longer the better

I like long pointy nose cones but it mostly boils down to the build and how it needs to look.

K'Tesh said:

I'm a fan of Secant Ogives...I really wish I could find a PNC-60AC (or BNC-60AC) that would be a true upscale of the PNC-55AC for ~$11.00 USD.

Click to expand...

It's choices like this which inspired me to buy a lathe. There are also very few nose cones for BT 70 tubes and I have turned quite a few BNC 70 AH noses for a number of builds. Many times when I've done upscale builds I often find the perfect NC doesn't exist. And I usually wont settle for a close facsimile. Nose cones for my upscale Constellation, 2 stage Der Red Max, Starship Excalibur, Gyroc, Arapahoe F are all upscale and noses had to be turned. Including a great many of my own designs and OOP clones. And for anyone that has ever turned a conical nose on a lathe, you prolly found it much harder to turn than an elliptical nose.

I love the PNC-60RL from the Vagabond!

RoyAtl said:

The only one of those that is a Secant Ogive is the 55AC. The rest are Tangent Ogives (some blunted or rounded) as are almost all ogive nosecones on the market. The Semroc upscales of the AC shape are all good as far as I can tell (I have the Semroc ARCAS of course, and the Hawks Hobby Cherokee which uses a Semroc nose cone, and as far as I can tell they are proper upscales.

I guess maybe the newer pnc-50y may be a tad secant. I prefer the old 50Y shape which is tangent but also a little wider toward the tip. I mean, it was plotted free-hand with a french curve rather than calculated, and then with the old balsa cones, the plunge grinder added variations on the shape as it wore down!

Click to expand...

I used the term Secant Ogive because that's what Semroc calls the nosecones I order from them. Honestly, I'm really fuzzy about what makes a Secant Ogive different from a Tangent Ogive, from many other shapes. Hopefully, people can get an understanding of my tastes from the list of rockets I included in my first post to this thread. I only like Conicals for scale or semi-scale (Black Brant II, Black Brant III, Stilleto), or for a very rare exception (I still very much wish I had a real Cineroc). Parabolas, and much of the other rounded shapes put me off, except for the Sprint. I know that a lot of people love the Big Bertha, but I only find it's NC attractive on shorter rockets (Goonies). Exotics really depend on how interested I am in the design.

Translation: I know what I like, and I know what I don't like. Truly, beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

Gary Byrum said:

It's choices like this which inspired me to buy a lathe... Many times when I've done upscale builds I often find the perfect NC doesn't exist. And I usually wont settle for a close facsimile. .... 2 stage Der Red Max

Click to expand...

I'm sure that buying (and learning how to use) a lathe kinda defeats my ~$11.00 USD budget except if I was able to somehow put it into commercial uses, or build a whole lot more of rockets (which I can't afford). That said, I wish that I had one, and knew how to use it, so I could get the perfect upscale of the old Estes nosecones for my builds.

Funny you should mention a 2 stage DRM... I've got a 2 stage Der Big Red Max waiting on the bench.

Marc_G said:

I love the PNC-60RL from the Vagabond!

Click to expand...

The RL is indeed really slick nose cone. I'm fond of the longer nose cones also. Semroc has a nose on the Tau Zero that I think is unique as it appears to me a, Ogive with a transition all in one. I have drawn a ton of designs using that shape and can't nail anything I like. Looks fine on the Tau Zero though.

K'Tesh said:

Funny you should mention a 2 stage DRM... I've got a 2 stage Der Big Red Max waiting on the bench.

Click to expand...

I built mine with BT 70's and turning that AH was one of my joy moments. That was prolly one of the most accurate and nice looking turns I've ever done.

The von Karmen. No other shape says speed like the VK.

Greg

GregGleason said:

The von Karmen. No other shape says speed like the VK.

Greg

Click to expand...

I asked earlier in the thread, but where the hells can you buy 'em?

VK's are hard to find, especially in the size that you want them!

Often, people will have to have them custom made, with either a CNC'd plug or mold halves.

That said, you can get some VK's at WildMan Rocketry.

https://www.wildmanrocketry.com/ShowProducts.aspx?Class=2&Sub=3&Sub1=551

Greg

K'Tesh said:

I used the term Secant Ogive because that's what Semroc calls the nosecones I order from them. Honestly, I'm really fuzzy about what makes a Secant Ogive different from a Tangent Ogive, from many other shapes.

Click to expand...

An ogive is described by the intersection of two circles. If the center of those two circles falls on the shoulder line of the nose cone, the shape is a tangent ogive; if they fall on either side of the shoulder line, they are secant ogives.

The best discussion I've found is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nose_cone_design

(though they are wrong about the description of the Honest John nose shape, which is a tangent (eh, maybe secant) ogive and a conical section)

Zeroignite said:

I asked earlier in the thread, but where the hells can you buy 'em?

Click to expand...

Shockwave makes fiberglass cones at reasonable prices. They're durable and sleek (most are 6:1, but the 38mm is 7:1), but in the smaller sizes the quality can be inconsistent. In larger sizes the same errors become inconsequential. One anecdote about durability: CCotner has a 2.5" one that survived falling from 3000ish feet without a parachute at least twice with zero damage (it was borrowed, and it separated from the payload bay of the borrower's DX3). A 2-inch one fell from 7000ish feet, also without damage.

There are also the filament wound ones by Performance Rocketry, but they cost a ton and are heavy. And they're not necessarily super quality either: a pair of 3" ones I had both had the inner and outer surfaces significantly non-concentric. Very irritating.

Eric1 at Badazz might be selling his own line of molded VK's soon, with the advantage over Shockwave of much better molds CNC'd out of aluminum.

I found a chart which shows the different shapes including both tangent and secant ogives. It appears to me that the tangent has more girth near the base of the nose cone. Although I don't really see much difference between the secant and the VK or the Haack.

Zeroignite said:

I asked earlier in the thread, but where the hells can you buy 'em?

Click to expand...

Google is your friend. Use him/her/it.

https://www.shockwaverocketry.com/store/index.php?route=product/category&path=59

https://rocketrywarehouse.com/product_info.php?products_id=278
this pages shows a kit with a VK NC. Prolly has em in stock also.

Gary Byrum said:

...My preferred shape is Ogive and anything that resembles it. My pick of the litter is the 55 AC...
View attachment 152659

Click to expand...

That looks like the nose cone from a Estes CC Express of which I have built three.

I like nose cones that are a little less pointy. Like for example this LOC 3.9" nose cone which I think is the one used on the LOC IV:

I have this elliptical nose cone, and it just looks nasty in a good way!
https://www.semroc.com/store/Scripts/prodView.asp?idproduct=2156