Possible upscale, Estes Hornet #2030

Winston posted in another thread that he'd like to see the Estes Hornet #2030 upscaled. I had never seen this version of an Estes Hornet before, and I must say I'm smitten by the design. Sodmeister and I had discussed in that thread the difficulty of using rail buttons with this design. I decided I would start a discussion here, so as not to keep hijacking the original thread.

Now I'm not saying I'm going to build this, I need another rocket project like I need another credit card bill. But if I were to build one, it would be with LOC 3.1" tubing, 1/4" plywood fins and a 38mm motor mount. It would also be a zipperless design.









View attachment Hornet_3.1in_38mm_bulkhead.ork

Why not just use a 1/4" or 3/8" launch lug and rod, you ask? That would certainly be the easiest solution, and more in keeping with the scale aspect. But Sodmeister and I both prefer using rail buttons and rails, and I like finding solutions to challenges.

The problem with using a rail is the fin spacing. There are 10 fins total, 5 smaller aft, and 5 larger forward. But they're offset, so basically the space for a rail would be as if there are 10 fins in the same position on the body tube. The space isn't large enough for a 1"x1" 1010 rail. You can see in my crude drawing that you'd need at least a 7/8" standoff for the button to have room for the rail. I've been thinking of various standoff designs. Dog House has button standoffs, but they're only 1/2" high. Not enough. I thought about various shapes of wood standoffs, but then got to thinking about nylon spacers. Why wouldn't a 1" long spacer work?

Most rail buttons are flat on the bottom, but they're so short, it isn't necessary to have a radius to fit the OD of the body tube. But with 1" long spacers, I'd be concerned they wouldn't be stable enough side to side. I thought about sanding a radius in the bottom of the spacer with a 3" sanding drum, but getting it centered would be a problem.

The solution I've arrived at is to cut flats on the body tube for the spacers with a Forstner bit. A Forstner bit cuts flat bottomed holes. You'd have to have some "meat" behind the body tube, but you could easily epoxy some 1/2" thick plywood blocks to the centering rings. I normally do this for rail button attachment, but the blocks aren't usually that thick. I think it would be a fairly simple matter to center the bit above the body tube, and cut the flats so that the spacers would be perpendicular to the body tube and inline with each other. I think it could work.

You could tightly couple (friction fit) the body tube and the motor tube between the two sets of fins.

The rocket could be displayed as pictured.

When the rocket is being preped for launch the bottom section with the small fins could be rotated into alignment with the larger upper fins.

Without measurements, it's hard to know if the rail would get the needed clearance between the fins with this arrangement . But it looks like it would work.

qquake2k said:

Now I'm not saying I'm going to build this...

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:lol: I almost believe you...:rofl:

chadrog said:

:lol: I almost believe you...:rofl:

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Hey, it could happen. There are LOTS of rockets I haven't built!

bradycros said:

You could tightly couple (friction fit) the body tube and the motor tube between the two sets of fins.

The rocket could be displayed as pictured.

When the rocket is being preped for launch the bottom section with the small fins could be rotated into alignment with the larger upper fins.

Without measurements, it's hard to know if the rail would get the needed clearance between the fins with this arrangement . But it looks like it would work.

Click to expand...

I thought about this too, some way of being able to rotate just the aft fins. I'm not quite sure how I would accomplish it.

qquake2k said:

Hey, it could happen. There are LOTS of rockets I haven't built!

Click to expand...

I believe you will build it, saying you wouldn't is what made me laugh.

qquake2k said:

I thought about this too, some way of being able to rotate just the aft fins. I'm not quite sure how I would accomplish it.

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Make the aft fins as their own separate fin can. Then couple the two fin cans (but don't glue them together!). When you glue in the motor mount (which would be a single unit) glue a thin strip of 3" coupler just in front of the aft CR (which would be in the small fin section) but don't glue the aft CR to the body tube. That way, the fins would be able to rotate but you wouldn't be able to separate the two sections.

Hope that makes sense. I'm typing on a small screened device.

-S

chadrog said:

I believe you will build it, saying you wouldn't is what made me laugh.

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Oh no, I'm not going to build it. Not at all. This is just a hypothetical discussion. I'm done with building rockets for a while. Honest.

rocketgeek101 said:

Make the aft fins as their own separate fin can. Then couple the two fin cans (but don't glue them together!). When you glue in the motor mount (which would be a single unit) glue a thin strip of 3" coupler just in front of the aft CR (which would be in the small fin section) but don't glue the aft CR to the body tube. That way, the fins would be able to rotate but you wouldn't be able to separate the two sections.

Hope that makes sense. I'm typing on a small screened device.

-S

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Now that's a clever idea.

bradycros said:

You could tightly couple (friction fit) the body tube and the motor tube between the two sets of fins.

The rocket could be displayed as pictured.

When the rocket is being preped for launch the bottom section with the small fins could be rotated into alignment with the larger upper fins.

Without measurements, it's hard to know if the rail would get the needed clearance between the fins with this arrangement . But it looks like it would work.

Click to expand...

qquake2k said:

I thought about this too, some way of being able to rotate just the aft fins. I'm not quite sure how I would accomplish it.

Click to expand...

I would cut the body tube between the upper and lower fin sets and install a coupler permanetly into the tube that the large fins will be attached to. You and I both know soaking the mating surfaces of the coupler and the I.D. of the tube with the small fins with thin CA and sanding to fit just right works really well.

Your probly gonna have to figure the placement of the upper centering ring(s) and upper motor tube and install them before the coupler is put into place.

The cut on the motor tube should align with the cut on the body tube. Make a coupler for the motor tube with some left over motor tube of the same size. Cut two pieces (length is up to you) and slit them open length wise. Glue one to the bottom of the upper motor tube. Glue the second piece of small motor tube over the slit in the first piece.

The bottom fin can will need its own centering ring(s) and motor tube.

T nuts in the upper centering ring and longish screws going thru the bottom centering ring can hold everything in place for flight, or tape off the out side coupling joint.

I'm sure you'll be using reloadable motors. The metal motor case is more the enough to keep this joint intact. You just want the bottom fin can to be able to move enough to align the fins.

Print out the Openrocket drawing to scale and draw in all the mods to scale. Then take measurements for placement of the mods on the real rocket.

I do like the idea of the rotating aft fin can. But it would certainly add a level of complication to the build.

Just for fun, I bought some of the spacers from Home Depot, to see how they would fit. The smaller spacers are 3/8" OD, and the larger is 1/2" OD. They're all 1" long. The rail button on the left is a three-piece, and the other two are one-piece Delrin. As you can see, the 3/8" standoff is a perfect fit.The 1/2" standoff would be more stable, though, with its wider base. It would be a relatively simple matter to chuck it up on the lathe, and file a taper in the top of it to match the OD of the rail button. I think it would look better with a taper, too. The ID of the 1/2" spacer is larger, and the #8 screw fits loosely. But a wrap or two of tape would take care of that.

IF I decide to build this, which I won't, I don't know which solution I'd go with. I think they both have pros and cons. I think the rail buttons with spacers would look funny, and you can't paint that nylon. But rotating the aft fins for launch wouldn't be keeping with the scale aspect, and the offset fins is one feature of the design that I really like.

But it doesn't matter. I'm not going to build it anyway. This is just a thought experiment.

Seems like you're doing an awful lot of R&D for something you're not going to build... Fins cut yet?

chadrog said:

Seems like you're doing an awful lot of R&D for something you're not going to build... Fins cut yet?

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No, and I'll have you know I haven't even printed out the templates. Jeez, the nerve of some people. :tongue:

I'd make one of the rear fins removable for flight.

This really would be an impressive rocket. Question. Has anyone done the numbers to find the outside diameter minimum for a regular rail button mount with no standoff?

apburner said:

This really would be an impressive rocket. Question. Has anyone done the numbers to find the outside diameter minimum for a regular rail button mount with no standoff?

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Looks like 4" body tube might fit.

apburner said:

This really would be an impressive rocket. Question. Has anyone done the numbers to find the outside diameter minimum for a regular rail button mount with no standoff?

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If you or your club has a rail from Black Sky, that diameter could be brought down quite a bit. Black Sky had single slot rails that are much slimmer than 80/20.

chadrog said:

If you or your club has a rail from Black Sky, that diameter could be brought down quite a bit. Black Sky had single slot rails that are much slimmer than 80/20.

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One of my clubs has a Black Sky rail. I had problems with the one-piece rail buttons fitting it. I had to switch to three-piece buttons. Here is a 2010 article about them:

https://archive.rocketreviews.com/reviews/all/bs_railsystem.shtml

qquake2k said:

One of my clubs has a Black Sky rail. I had problems with the one-piece rail buttons fitting it. I had to switch to three-piece buttons. Here is a 2010 article about them:

https://archive.rocketreviews.com/reviews/all/bs_railsystem.shtml

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I'm pretty sure that's what our club uses, and I haven't had any issues when using one piece buttons.

qquake2k said:

One of my clubs has a Black Sky rail. I had problems with the one-piece rail buttons fitting it. I had to switch to three-piece buttons. Here is a 2010 article about them:

https://archive.rocketreviews.com/reviews/all/bs_railsystem.shtml

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The doghouse buttons have a bit of a radius in the inner corners that gets hung up on the very sharp corners of the black sky rails - nothing a needle file and a drill press can't fix though.

One of my favorite Estes kits from when I was getting into the hobby as a kid. I love it!

One concern I have with the buttons on a standoff would be vertical alignment front to back, and if the buttons were to catch the rail going up it would probably be pretty easy to torque them off. That being said, I've never used rail buttons before, so I could be completely wrong.

-Dave

I'm thinking 4.25 or 4.50" will do the numbers tonight . Have the sim on OR just have go through and scale and change to 1/4 ply

djfuller said:

One of my favorite Estes kits from when I was getting into the hobby as a kid. I love it!

One concern I have with the buttons on a standoff would be vertical alignment front to back, and if the buttons were to catch the rail going up it would probably be pretty easy to torque them off. That being said, I've never used rail buttons before, so I could be completely wrong.

-Dave

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Yeah, I thought about the alignment of the standoffs. But if they're mounted in "flats" on the body tube, and the flats are inline with each other, I think it would be okay.

qquake2k said:

Yeah, I thought about the alignment of the standoffs. But if they're mounted in "flats" on the body tube, and the flats are inline with each other, I think it would be okay.

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Enough with the If's,have you turned your nose cone yet?Even if your not sure another turned cone by you will be a great thread.I might even make an offer.But I think I know my good friend,he has to build another rocket.It's just what he does best.

djfuller said:

One of my favorite Estes kits from when I was getting into the hobby as a kid. I love it!

One concern I have with the buttons on a standoff would be vertical alignment front to back, and if the buttons were to catch the rail going up it would probably be pretty easy to torque them off. That being said, I've never used rail buttons before, so I could be completely wrong.

-Dave

Click to expand...

Same here. Best rocket I ever owned. Probably close to 100 flights before I lost it. If you don't build this, I will!