Playin' With Fire - Flight Report

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Thanks for the tips. I was planning on sanding it for attachment anyways. Sanding down to the fibers will give me a much stronger bond as well.

Alex
Usually-check out the stickied bonding thread, sanding too roughyl can mess up the bond a little. Either way-you're doing all the right things, you've got this one I think. =)
 
Speaking of that, you should hurry up and order from Soller. Last I checked their 3K Twill was $20 a yard!
/
Soller always sells 3K at $20/yd...if you order a lot of it. Are you using the 199gsm? I've switched to 270 gsm because the weave is tighter so you end up with a lower epoxy content. I wish they sold that in a high modulus 60" width though. There's a lot less waste using that and the high modulus stuff is almost 20% more stiff.

Your work looks great. Where did you order a mandrel?
 
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Soller always sells 3K at $20/yd...if you order a lot of it. Are you using the 199gsm? I've switched to 270 gsm because the weave is tighter so you end up with a lower epoxy content. I wish they sold that in a high modulus 60" width though. There's a lot less waste using that and the high modulus stuff is almost 20% more stiff.

Your work looks great. Where did you order a mandrel?

Im getting it from Wildman, but it hasn't even shipped yet. I ordered it two weeks ago. I called on Friday, to ask what was up with my order. Apparently they were waiting on parts to come in before they shipped everything.

Alex
 
Goodie. My stuff got here.

I was going to post all this crap about my stuff, but I'll shut up and start building.

DSC07148.jpg

Black FWFG nosecones are pretty sexy. That's all I'm saying.

DSC07151.jpg

Alex
 
Awesome! I'm really looking forward to this build (and flight!).

One question though, how are you going to pull the mandrel off? I am assuming that you are using the PML phenolic as the mandrel. The most common way I have heard of pulling cardboard tubes off was by soaking it in water. With the limited experience that I had with making carbon tubes, I have had some issues with pulling the tubes out, and I down't think that PML phenolic will break apart as easy in water as cardboard tubes. I could also be way off and you're probably just using mold release and knocking them off. Just something to consider.

Manny
 
I made stuff already.

One of the things I received from Wildman was a 12x12 sheet of 1/16 G10. This will be used for the core of my fins.

First order of business was to print and cut a fin "blank" from thick cardstock. I like having a fin blank I can use from the start of my build to the end, so I can make sure everything is nice and consistent.
DSC07153.jpg

With the template cut out. I traced the fin pattern onto my G10. When I add carbon fiber to my G10 stock, I want to use as little G10 as possible. With the 3 fins traced, I found the area I was able to cut out. Reducing the size of the G10 gives me more PSI per pound when I apply pressure to the layup. Im estimating removing that rectangle will give me about 65% more PSI.
DSC07154.jpg
It was a nice night, so I decided I wanted to do the fin stock layup right away.

Using the smaller G10 rectangle, taped off sections of my carbon fiber that I was going to cut. Using masking tape prevents the edges of the carbon fiber from fraying. It's also easier to cut!
DSC07155.JPG

Here's the 2 +- 45° layers masked off and ready to be cut.
DSC07156.JPG

I forgot to take pics of the bond prep. I sanded both sides of the G10 with 220 grit sandpaper, just enough to expose the tops of the fibers. This was then washed thoroughly.


Took everything out to the workshop, I'm ready to begin my layup!
DSC07157.jpg
Im going to be using Mylar for the release film. I've had success with it in the past.

I spread epoxy on the bare G10. I usually give it a thick coat the first time.
DSC07161.jpg

First up is the +- 45° layer of 3K twill.
DSC07162.jpg

Next up is the 0, 90° layer of 3K twill.
DSC07163.jpg

After that is the 0, 90 layer of 12K spread tow.
DSC07164.jpg

Mylar goes over that.
DSC07165.jpg

To be Continued!

Alex
 
Fin Stock Layup: Continued.

I flipped the whole shebang over.
DSC07166.jpg

Exact same layup on the other side. I squeezed out the air-bubbles seen in the picture.
DSC07167.jpg

Then, I put about 90lbs of weight on top of the entire thing.
DSC07168.jpg

I'm going to take it all off tomorrow and see how it turned out. I felt like it went pretty well, but we'll see how the final product looks.

Alex
 
Awesome! I'm really looking forward to this build (and flight!).

One question though, how are you going to pull the mandrel off? I am assuming that you are using the PML phenolic as the mandrel. The most common way I have heard of pulling cardboard tubes off was by soaking it in water. With the limited experience that I had with making carbon tubes, I have had some issues with pulling the tubes out, and I down't think that PML phenolic will break apart as easy in water as cardboard tubes. I could also be way off and you're probably just using mold release and knocking them off. Just something to consider.

Manny

Indeed, PML phenolic really doesn't afraid of water.
 
Here is how the fin layup turned out.

At about 12:30, the night I layed up the fin stock I felt the need to go out and check on how things were doing.

Things were doing bad.

The entire upper end of my weights had shifted slightly, causing the upper sheet of mylar to slide off of the carbon. I quickly adjusted the weights and used another peice of mylar to cover the exposed area.
The results:

The good side:
DSC07626.jpg

The bad side:
DSC07627.jpg
DSC07629.jpg
DSC07628.jpg
You can see pretty clearly where the mylar shifted.

Even though it is rough, and ugly; I dont think that the strength of the sheet has been compromised in any way. Still perfectly usable.

Alex
 
It was a nice day, so why not do the Fincan tube layup?

This tube will be 13-14in long and will be made of 5 wraps of 3K twill carbon.
Pretty straight forward layup.
I wrapped the airframe in mylar film and small pieces of scotch tape (epoxy doesn't stick to either of these).
DSC07631.jpg

I mixed up a large amount of US composites medium epoxy and started laminating.
DSC07632.jpg

After the first wrap:
DSC07633.jpg

A little later on:
DSC07634.jpg

Almost there:
DSC07635.jpg

I trim the frayed section when I'm close to finishing the tube.
DSC07636.jpg

A wrap of peel ply and were done!
DSC07637.jpg

Space heaters work nicely for speeding up a cure.
DSC07639.jpg

Alex
 
I think it's just very oversaturated peel ply.

That it is!
With the extra epoxy I have, I like to oversaturate it. It fills more pinholes and doesn't add unnecessary weight.
I used mylar around the mandrel, but not around the layup. The tube is all cured and cut. I'll take pics when I get home from school.

Alex
 
That it is!
With the extra epoxy I have, I like to oversaturate it. It fills more pinholes and doesn't add unnecessary weight.
I used mylar around the mandrel, but not around the layup. The tube is all cured and cut. I'll take pics when I get home from school.

Alex

I am curious to see the finish from the Dacron peel ply. I also agree with you that over saturating it helps in removing pinholes and air voids without any weight added.
 
Still waiting on them pictures, I am going to assume you have been really busy. If so, my apologies for my eagerness.
 
Were you able to get the peel ply off with that much epoxy soaked into it? I've just never seen it done like that. I have never used peel ply in anything other than a vacuum bag with breather felt soaking up excess epoxy. Even then, sometimes it's really difficult to remove if there is a bit too much epoxy in the peel ply.
Scott w
 
Sorry about the lack of pictures and details. School for the last few weeks has been absolutely crazy and I've had other things that I've needed to put in front of rocketry. I'm not in a rush.
Writing this post is about the most time I've allowed myself for rocketry in the last few weeks. I havn't been able to go out to my workshop and grab a pic or two. Bare with me, but scoot back on your seat a little.

Alex
 
Sorry about the lack of pictures and details. School for the last few weeks has been absolutely crazy and I've had other things that I've needed to put in front of rocketry. I'm not in a rush.
Writing this post is about the most time I've allowed myself for rocketry in the last few weeks. I havn't been able to go out to my workshop and grab a pic or two. Bare with me, but scoot back on your seat a little.

Alex

I am assumed you were busy, thank you for clarifying your absence. I am subscribed to the thread so I will be informed once you are back on track.
 
Finallly got around to taking some pics of that tube. School is out for the day, and it's a perfect time to work on rockets.

DSC07822.jpg

The entire tube turned out okay, but not great. I was able to remove the peel ply quite easily while the epoxy was in the green stage. I trimmed it with a hacksaw.

This is the texture of 95% of the tube:

DSC07823.jpg

The other 5% isnt as nice. I forgot to iron my peel ply, so it got a few wrinkles. ALWAYS remove wrinkles before beginning the layup.
I got 5 of so of these "craters" where the ply wrinkled.

DSC07824.jpg

Alex
 
Nothing like a little sanding will fix. Where did you get that Dacron peel ply from? Nice job on the airframe it looks great.
 
Aircraft Spruce sells dacron peel ply, and they ship it on rolls, but it is often wrinkled. I never thought to iron it-I assume you use a fairly low heat? How well does that work?
 
The upper tube turned out much nicer. For this one I used Aeropoxy laminating resin with the 1 hour hardener. Same deal as the fincan tube, but I ironed the peel ply before hand to avoid wrinkles. It worked flawlessly!

DSC07812.jpg

DSC07815.jpg

This is what the tube should look like in the end!

DSC07818.jpg
No bubbles or wrinkles whatsoever.

Alex
 
Your shop looks really nice when it's not 2AM and light out.

These tubes look awesome, but here's the bad thing, you're making me nervous. I really don't want to blow up your rocket. But I guess I have all of next summer to mess around with things, and if I don't have something ready by then, there is always our little plan B that we taked about...the evil plan B...Mwahaha :dark:

But seriously though, you do a tremendous job on your composite work, and I can't wait to see what is sure to be a beauty of a rocket in person.

Manny
 
I'm finished with most major components of this rocket and I'm STILL designing.

I'd like everyone's input on a few design aspects: Mainly 3 fins vs. 4 fins. Yes, I'm still rethinking fin shape and everything. There are pros and cons for each configuration. I've outlined them below.

3 Fins
Pros: Less Material, Less work, Less drag, Less weight, more aesthetically pleasing.

4 Fins
Pros: Better stability at high mach numbers, Slightly decreased fin size resulting in better flutter resistance, Manny already has a Tower designed for 4 fin rockets.

Keep in mind that lower altitude isn't exactly a bad thing. The RRC3 has a max altitude of 40Kft ASL. Blackrock is something like 4kft ASL, that plus the 35K I'm looking to get out of this rocket, and I'm dangerously close to my limit.

I'd appreciate everyone's input between the 2 options. I'm split 50/50.

Alex
 
I'm finished with most major components of this rocket and I'm STILL designing.

I'd like everyone's input on a few design aspects: Mainly 3 fins vs. 4 fins. Yes, I'm still rethinking fin shape and everything. There are pros and cons for each configuration. I've outlined them below.

3 Fins
Pros: Less Material, Less work, Less drag, Less weight, more aesthetically pleasing.

4 Fins
Pros: Better stability at high mach numbers, Slightly decreased fin size resulting in better flutter resistance, Manny already has a Tower designed for 4 fin rockets.

Keep in mind that lower altitude isn't exactly a bad thing. The RRC3 has a max altitude of 40Kft ASL. Blackrock is something like 4kft ASL, that plus the 35K I'm looking to get out of this rocket, and I'm dangerously close to my limit.

I'd appreciate everyone's input between the 2 options. I'm split 50/50.

Alex

I definitely think that four fins would be beneficial. My Black Rock 3" is going to have four fins. And you won't have to go around looking for a tower. :D

For the RRC3, think about investing in an RRC3 Extreme. I'm not sure if it's out, but CJ told me about it and it comes with a better gel cap, while worth about $10 more, it will increase the RRC3's capabilities to around 100K' ASL. But it you don't, it's not that the RRC3 won't work above 40K, it just won't be very accurate above that altitude and it'll still fire your charges. If you want to go that route, maybe a GPS system is in order. I'm thinking about getting my HAM license here at ISU (we have a HAM radio club) so that I can operate a 70 cm GPS system. I don't know anything about it, but I'd like to learn. Maybe if I do that, we can work something out with GPS on your rocket.

Manny
 
3 Fins
Pros: Less Material, Less work, Less drag, Less weight, more aesthetically pleasing.

4 Fins
Pros: Better stability at high mach numbers, Slightly decreased fin size resulting in better flutter resistance, Manny already has a Tower designed for 4 fin rockets.

Keep in mind that lower altitude isn't exactly a bad thing. The RRC3 has a max altitude of 40Kft ASL. Blackrock is something like 4kft ASL, that plus the 35K I'm looking to get out of this rocket, and I'm dangerously close to my limit.

I'd appreciate everyone's input between the 2 options. I'm split 50/50.

Alex

Absolutely 4 fins. 3 being aesthetically pleasing is a matter of opinion.

It seems like this flight would warrant an accelerometer, especially with an EX motor. Don't you want to know [more accurate] max velocity as well?

Stick a GPS on if you can. It will make life a lot easier. I think I missed it...when are you planning to fly?
 
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