Playin' With Fire - Flight Report

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Alex...

I just got off the phone with Manny...He gave me a brief run down what happened.
I'm sorry to hear that not everything went the way it was supposed to but, i want you too know that you still did a great job.
Not only did you build an incredible rocket, circumstances beyond control did their evil way with the airframe. At least you've proven that you do have VERY sound build techniques and, that even with what happened....YOU built a STRONG rocket.

Pretty impressive for someone your age.

You guys are playing with fire in a place i can only imagine getting to...

I'm very impressed my young friend.

Now regroup and, keep it up, because when you do...the world will be watching and, you'll be on top of it! ;)
 
Looks/ sounds to me like a cato. That is completely based on speculation. No matter what the problem was, know that you built one heck of a rocket, and taught us all something.
 
Looks/ sounds to me like a cato. That is completely based on speculation. No matter what the problem was, know that you built one heck of a rocket, and taught us all something.

Ben....From what i get from Manny and, this being speculation (since i was not obviously there) here's what i hear.

Man-well motor went Mid-Evil and, went from an M-1??? or M-2??? into something LIKE an M-4000.:jaw:
Launch harder than Manny's flight.
Was going good until nosecone cracked/started to crack...
Rocket wavered, airframe turned sideways...
Darted in.
Fins still attached airframe pretty much intact....nosecone *KABLOOHEY*...

It sounds like Alex DID A GREAT JOB building this rocket...just something got stressed beyond expectation and, the egg cracked.

Now, don't quote me...Alex will give the final report on what happened...this is what i heard.
 
Ben....From what i get from Manny and, this being speculation (since i was not obviously there) here's what i hear.

Man-well motor went Mid-Evil and, went from an M-1??? or M-2??? into something LIKE an M-4000.:jaw:
Launch harder than Manny's flight.
Was going good until nosecone cracked/started to crack...
Rocket wavered, airframe turned sideways...
Darted in.
Fins still attached airframe pretty much intact....nosecone *KABLOOHEY*...

It sounds like Alex DID A GREAT JOB building this rocket...just something got stressed beyond expectation and, the egg cracked.

Now, don't quote me...Alex will give the final report on what happened...this is what i heard.
WOW! That says a lot about alex's build. The one commercial component was the failure point. I can only hope to one day build a rocket like this. I will stop speculating now. I'm looking forward to the report.
 
I got a brief description yesterday from Alex stating the motor caused instability.

He did let me know that his fincan survived. More info to come shortly I presume.
 
I got a brief description yesterday from Alex stating the motor caused instability.

He did let me know that his fincan survived. More info to come shortly I presume.

Yeah, I heard the same thing from Alex. Hopefully he can provide all of us awesome pictures and a complete run down on the flight. Alex builds a mean rocket. Sounds like Manny builds a mean motor!
Ken
 
Sorry to hear it didn't work as planned, Alex.

However, there are a couple things take come from this, based on what has been reported thus far....

1) Manny has progressed well on making larger motors.

2) Alex has a great building skills, and is building really nice tubes.

I have respect for both; neither one is something to undertake lightly.

-Kevin
 
Bummer the rocket didn't come back in one piece, but it was a killer boost. Here are my pics. I only managed to catch the rocket in one picture...

-Todd

IMG_5741.jpg IMG_5750.jpg
 
Bummer the rocket didn't come back in one piece, but it was a killer boost. Here are my pics. I only managed to catch the rocket in one picture...

-Todd

View attachment 179916 View attachment 179917

Awesome, the length of the flame is just about the same as the rocket. Hm, you can already see a sort of angle of attack right at take off. Great pictures Todd. Alex sorry to hear about your rocket. Seeing other posts your main airframe and fin can survived? Hopefully you can rebuild this beautiful bird.
 
Awesome, the length of the flame is just about the same as the rocket. Hm, you can already see a sort of angle of attack right at take off. Great pictures Todd. Alex sorry to hear about your rocket. Seeing other posts your main airframe and fin can survived? Hopefully you can rebuild this beautiful bird.

Sounds like from the posts above that it was the nosecone that needs to be replaced as well as fixing up part of the AV bay.




Btw the G10 electronics sled looks like a crumpled piece of paper!!


Sent from my iPod touch using Rocketry Forum
 
Man-well motor went Mid-Evil and, went from an M-1??? or M-2??? into something LIKE an M-4000.:jaw:

Short of installing the wrong nozzle or making major mistakes crunching the numbers, how does one go about doing THAT? I have to admit utter confusion...

Sorry to hear the flight was sub-optimal, Alex. Cuz that was one fine bit of composite work.

Son, you have a future. Keep it up.
 
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Short of installing the wrong nozzle or making major mistakes crunching the numbers, how does one go about doing THAT? I have to admit utter confusion...

Sorry to hear the flight was sub-optimal, Alex. Cuz that was one fine bit of composite work.

Son, you have a future. Keep it up.

In the EX world, people frequently don't have actual data to make predictions on what a motor should be. The typical course of action is to provide a motor designation that "seems about right." In this case, assuming TT in a 76-7600, you're going to wind up with an M2000-M2500 or so (3s to 3.5s burn).

Not sure if Manny will comment, but air bubbles could be to blame for a heightened burn rate. It happens, and it seems that in this case it worked out for them and the motor didn't CATO.
 
Man-well motor went Mid-Evil and, went from an M-1??? or M-2??? into something LIKE an M-4000.:jaw:

Short of installing the wrong nozzle or making major mistakes crunching the numbers, how does one go about doing THAT? I have to admit utter confusion...

Its pretty lame that you guys are speculating about what happened and implying Manny did something wrong. I had a conversation with Manny prior to launch about the motor details and we all agreed, a priori, that the motor would crank and I did a back of the envelope check of Manny's sims and hardware margins and they all checked out.

Manny and Alex both did an awesome job on this project.
 
Its pretty lame that you guys are speculating about what happened and implying Manny did something wrong. I had a conversation with Manny prior to launch about the motor details and we all agreed, a priori, that the motor would crank and I did a back of the envelope check of Manny's sims and hardware margins and they all checked out.

Manny and Alex both did an awesome job on this project.


Awesome job they did...

Speculate? No...that's what i heard from Manny himself pertaining to his motor...He thought it performed above expectation in the burn time.
Unlike yourself, i was not privy to the details of its make up and, not being well versed in motor construction i would honestly have to say that it wouldn't have done me much good.

Myself i consider speculation to be the downfall of many people on this forum who come in as the "Expert" and, proceed to let everyone know what really happened...Please do not take my report as such...and, i harbor no ill will towards anyone who would comment on....one of my comments.

I think i need to help Manwell build a test stand to substantiate his formulations. I only wish i could have been there to see everything...Sounds like it was an incredible event.
 
Ummm....Alex, you DO know that we are all waiting (patiently for the moment) for a full - detailed with pics/vids/etc. - report from you, yes?
And don't give me any of those "had to get some sleep" or "had important things in my life to attend to" excuses - think about your fans!

"Why do you keep me waiting?"

s6
 
Its pretty lame that you guys are speculating about what happened and implying Manny did something wrong. I had a conversation with Manny prior to launch about the motor details and we all agreed, a priori, that the motor would crank and I did a back of the envelope check of Manny's sims and hardware margins and they all checked out.

Manny and Alex both did an awesome job on this project.

When I talked to Manny today, he told me the same thing he told Gus - that he thinks it was somewhere in the M4000 range.

-Kevin
 
Okay. Its the moment you've all been waiting for.

So long story short, it was a "shred" caused by instability. As you may have heard, Manny's M2160 burned in only 1.9 seconds, making it about an ~8000ns M4200. My rocket accelerated well past the velocity I simulated (mach 2.7). At the very end of the burn it did a tight spiral and turned horizontally. This destroyed everything. As shown below, the nosecone failed at the tip, the middle, and right above the shoulder. The rocket free fell and hit the ground with enough force to destroy the fiberglass coupler, and the tubing all around it (along with the electronics inside), some of this destruction was probably caused by the shred itself and not the fall. What's astounding is that the fincan is in perfect shape (besides a nasty dent from the NC). It turned sideways at over 3 times the speed of sound and showed little signs of stress.

Luckily, i was able to recover everything down to the stripped chute. I spent the better part of an hour dissecting the remains with a hacksaw and pliers. The electronics were in pieces so I can't get any flight data. I still really want to figure out what my max velocity was at the time of the shred. I can do this by figuring out the velocity I was unstable with a burned 7600 case. Looking at openrocket, that velocity is Mach 3.25. I know, it isn't the most accurate way to determine speed, but it's all I have. Because of errors in the simulation, I would guess that M3.3-M3.2 is a good estimate.

I'll upload pictures later. TRF is uploading all my vertical photos horizontally. But I do have a video!

[video=youtube;vzKPZej1cF4]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vzKPZej1cF4&list=UUr5VpCU85Sniy0goV-mv66A[/video]

Enjoy.

Edit: Okay. Looks like my pics uploaded anyway.

Alex

DSC00709.jpg

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DSC00733.jpg

DSC00746.jpg

DSC00750.jpg

DSC00754.jpg
 
Wow. Just wow. That is impressive and sad at the same time. Sorry about that!


Will there be a PWF rev 2.0? :p
 
Was the nose cone found within the wreckage?


Alexander Solis

Level 1 - Mariah 54 - CTI-I100 Red Lightning Longburn - 6,345 Feet
 
Alex, you might contact the altimeter manufacturer to see if there's a possibility they can retrieve data from the chip.

I doubt it, but it's worth asking.

-Kevin
 
No, it was found a few hundred yards away. It looked like this.

image.jpg

Alex
 
That average accel works out to be ~55G. Awesome flight; literally bullet proof fincan: the NC couldn't even knock a fin off at M3!
 
Alex...Not that this really needs to be said...but, you are in no way a zero but, a winner on this.
Alot of us have garnered much respect for your building skills...What, somewhere around 22,000 views so far...? :point:
I can't even tell a joke about chasing Manny around Argonia last year after he ran out of gas without getting so much as a hundred views...

Build another Bad Boy for another day.

Man! THAT thing was flat #$$ trucking! :surprised:
 
Alex, impressive and unfortunate at the same time. So, are you surmising that the the Cp moved that much? What was your stability margin on this thing? I would guess that the bulk of this rocket is motor, right? Perhaps a redesign with larger fins and a little more length is in order?


Mark Koelsch
Sent from my iPhone using Rocketry Forum
 
Goodness! I am so sorry Alex. That flight looked great for a little while...
Do you think you'll rebuild?
 
Sorry about the failure Alex, but you made quite an accomplishment by going out there and flying. Great job to You and Manny, I hope to fly something this extreme one day. We also need a report on your 54mm rocket when you get a chance.
 
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