Playin' With Fire - Flight Report

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Aksrockets

Now with 8% more aluminum
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Alright people, It's time for another build. This one will be good (I hope).
I was going to write up a big, long description, but let's face it. Nobody reads those. I'll make this quick and painless.
The "Playin' With Fire" will be an all carbon fiber 3in Minimum diameter, designed to handle a 75/7600 motor. It will be all handmade (come on, you guys should know my style by now). The only pre-made part I'm planning on buying in the Nosecone. The tube will be hand wrapped and the fins will be pressed at home. It will be standard Dual Deployment, using an RRC3 and a Stratologger altim.

Okay, here's a little bit of a longer description of each component. I lied when I said this was going to be short.

Nosecone:
Right now this is a toss up between a BadAzz VonKarmen, a PR Fillament wound and a Shockwave 6-1 VK. It'll all come down to price, availability and strength. As of right now, I'm leaning towards the Shockwave. I'm liking that 6-1 look!

Body Tube:
5 wraps of 2x2 twill 3K carbon. Laid up with USC epoxy. Probably a slow, but it depends on the temperature.

Fins:
1/16in G10 core with 2-3 layers of 12oz spread tow carbon on each side. Aluminum tipped. More on that later.

Fin attachment. Attached with JB weld or Aeropoxy. Carbon fiber fillets. 3 layers of Carbon Fiber tip to tip. The first two will be a Carbon/Kevlar hybrid. The Carbon/Kevlar cloth was kindly donated by Ken A (known 'round these parts as Kenstarr)

Altimeter Bay:
Made my Mason H. He's particularly good at that stuff and I'm not. He'll be building it, but I'll be wiring it.

Recovery:
Small drouge at apogee. Main 50in at 1000' or so.

Motor:
This will be interesting. Manny Ballestero volunteered to make the motor for this thing. Knowing his motor making track record so far, I've already bought double strength plastic trashbags in the somewhat likely event of a carbon fiber sky-pinata. It'll will be a full 75/7600 motor. Not sure on the propellant yet. That's up to Manny.

Is anybody still reading this?

Anyways, this will be flying at some Black Rock launch next summer. Possibly Aeronaut or MudRoc, I'm free for both, it just depends on Manny's schedule.

I won't be building my previous L2 rocket - the Shockwave 54 -. This will instead take it's place. I'm thinking about an L3200 for my L2.

How about an Openrocket file and some screenshots:

View attachment Playin' With Fire .ork
Screen Shot 2013-08-15 at 10.07.52 AM.png
Screen Shot 2013-08-15 at 10.07.48 AM.jpg
Screen Shot 2013-08-15 at 10.07.33 AM.jpg
Playin With Fire Rocket.jpg

Building will begin in September.

Alex
 
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I like your style! Can't wait to see how it turns out. I'm on a bit of a break from actively building anything other than what I won at the Hellfire auction. The paint scheme down by the fins looks vaguely familiar... but better than any similar thing I've seen in the past!
-Ken
 
1/16in G10 core with 2-3 layers of 12oz spread tow carbon on each side. Aluminum tipped. More on that later.

Spread weave is awesome.

Fin attachment. Attached with JB weld or Aeropoxy. Carbon fiber fillets. 3 layers of Carbon Fiber tip to tip. The first two will be a Carbon/Kevlar hybrid. The Carbon/Kevlar cloth was kindly donated by Ken A (known 'round these parts as Kenstarr)

I have doubts about the usefulness of carbon/kevlar in this application. The Kevlar just makes it harder to work with without adding much. Use spread weave carbon. It's stronger, and it looks more awesome.

I won't be building my previous L2 rocket - the Shockwave 54 -. This will instead take it's place. I'm thinking about an L3200 for my L2.

That's the way to do it.
 
you know people who play with fire, wet the bed... "Bed wetters" is a good alternate name as a synonym.

Cool project! Best of luck, cant wait to see it turn out!
 
Spread weave is awesome.



I have doubts about the usefulness of carbon/kevlar in this application. The Kevlar just makes it harder to work with without adding much. Use spread weave carbon. It's stronger, and it looks more awesome.



That's the way to do it.
CarVac is probably right about all aspects of the carbon/kevlar. I wouldn't feel bad if you didn't use it. If you do, great, if not, you will find a use sometime for it.
-Ken
 
Motor:
This will be interesting. Manny Ballestero volunteered to make the motor for this thing. Knowing his motor making track record so far, I've already bought double strength plastic trashbags in the somewhat likely event of a carbon fiber sky-pinata. It'll will be a full 75/7600 motor. Not sure on the propellant yet. That's up to Manny.
If I volunteered instead, would you consider not blowing up your rocket on its second or third flight?
 
I have doubts about the usefulness of carbon/kevlar in this application. The Kevlar just makes it harder to work with without adding much. Use spread weave carbon. It's stronger, and it looks more awesome.
Do you think I'll have a problem contouring it to the fillets? Is the raw fabric very stiff by itself? Thing is, It most likely wont be cosmetic. The final layer will be a twill weave. Just for continuity's sake.
CarVac is probably right about all aspects of the carbon/kevlar. I wouldn't feel bad if you didn't use it. If you do, great, if not, you will find a use sometime for it.
-Ken
Oh don't worry, I'll put it to VERY good use.
Nice project I download the .ork , 34K WOW
Yep. I'm expecting 30-35K out of this rocket, depending on the motor. Right now I'm simulating using the KBA M1450, CTI M1545G, and AMW M1630 Tiger Tail. I figure those will give me a good spectrum of data so I can make estimations about speed, stability and altitude. I'm expecting speeds of M2 - M2.5 if anyone's wondering.

If I volunteered instead, would you consider not blowing up your rocket on its second or third flight?
Manny mentioned that you were his EX mentor. I'd feel bad if you took over, but I certainly wouldn't object to you helping him out.
Same project, same name, 3 years later. Good choice :wink:
Argh! All the good names are taken! Im sticking with mine. Cool thread BTW.

Alex
 
Alright, we can take it offline to make sure things go well. I would hate to see your handiwork destroyed, no offense to Manny!

Yea, it would suck to see this sweet rocket succumb to the same fate as that Upscale Drake at LDRS :facepalm: What? You thought we forgot? :wink:

Sounds like a cool project. I'm curious to hear about how you plan to do the aluminum edging. (Even if it's overkill...)

Todd
 
Do you think I'll have a problem contouring it to the fillets? Is the raw fabric very stiff by itself? Thing is, It most likely wont be cosmetic. The final layer will be a twill weave. Just for continuity's sake.

The fabric isn't stiff so much as the Kevlar will do nothing but make it difficult to cut and sand. Because Kevlar has little compressive strength, and lower stiffness than carbon fiber, it won't add much to the properties except bulk.

It's difficult to cut, even with the right kind of scissors. Additionally, the right kind of scissors will be worn out by carbon, meaning you will be switching between them constantly on diagonal cuts.

The best use for carbon/Kevlar is in tubes, with the Kevlar wrapped circumferentially. In the middle of the layup, in case you have to sand the inside or outside.
 
Altimeter Bay:
Made my Mason H. He's particularly good at that stuff and I'm not. He'll be building it, but I'll be wiring it.
Yes im making it, yes im probably better at it than you, no you are not wiring it. That will be my job as well. Consider it my Xmas present to you.
 
Well, it looks as if It'll cost $250 to build, minus epoxy (which I already have).
Here's how it all pans out.
Screen Shot 2013-08-18 at 7.21.02 PM.png
Really not bad considering it's an all carbon fiber 3 in rocket. The 3in Wildman DD is the more expensive, and it's all glass. The Mongoose 75 is $700.

Alex
 
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Shhhhhhh........
Did you hear that? That was me dropping $300 on supplies.
LET THE BUILDING BEGIN!

Alex
 
Shhhhhhh........
Did you hear that? That was me dropping $300 on supplies.
LET THE BUILDING BEGIN!

Alex
Aw, man. Makin' me jealous. I've recently dropped 300 on 3 different types of pliers and a couple other measly hand tools for the new jerb. Job. I'm out of the rocket biz for awhile. Hopefully now I have Saturdays off I can at least come watch some more launches! Keep us updated often.
-Ken
 
Well, it looks as if It'll cost $250 to build, minus epoxy (which I already have).
Here's how it all pans out.
View attachment 142723
Really not bad considering it's an all carbon fiber 3 in rocket. The 3in Wildman DD is the more expensive, and it's all glass. The Mongoose 75 is $700.

Alex

What about electronics?

You should consider coming out to Tripoli Vegas' Oktoberfest to launch this for the maiden voyage in five weeks--something in the high teens range? Waiver out here is to 21.8k MSL. What's the sim with an L3200?
 
What about electronics?

You should consider coming out to Tripoli Vegas' Oktoberfest to launch this for the maiden voyage in five weeks--something in the high teens range? Waiver out here is to 21.8k MSL. What's the sim with an L3200?
I got an RRC3 for my birthday, and I'll get a Stratologger sometime this year maybe for Christmas.

I highly doubt this will be anything near ready in the next few weeks. I'm planning on completing it sometime around next April or so. Even if I was to complete it quick, I still wouldn't be able to get my L2 (I'd still be under 18)

Alex
 
Oh no. It's begun.

I big huge box was waiting for me when I got back from school.
13+-+5

Man does Soller Composites know how to pack carbon fiber! Double layered cardboard boxes, Lots of bubble wrap and a few layers of plastic to protect the carbon. All that makes for one very happy customer!
Speaking of that, you should hurry up and order from Soller. Last I checked their 3K Twill was $20 a yard!

Opened it up! 2x2 twill and the spread weave carbon both came wrapped around cardboard tubes.
13+-+6


The peel ply came folded and wrapped in plastic. I spread it out to un-wrinkle it.
13+-+7


Now I'm just waiting on my other package with the mandrel.

Alex
 
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Hint: break out the iron and ironing board and remove those wrinkles.
 
Alex, if you have no use for the scraps you have after you finish with all of that CF, I will gladly put them to use...
:)
 
I'm VERY happy with the quality of the peel ply I recieved.

It has a very high thread count and feels almost like silk.

Here is a little piece of it next to some darcon peel ply I got from Aircraft Spruce.
Yay for less sanding!

13+-+1


If I had more, I'd make myself a pillow case out of it. It's that smooth.

Alex
 
Hint: break out the iron and ironing board and remove those wrinkles.
I was planning on doing that with the individual pieces once they were cut out.
Alex, if you have no use for the scraps you have after you finish with all of that CF, I will gladly put them to use...
:)
I Never have scraps. Everything is put to use doing something or another. You still want that 29mm tube?

Alex
 
Hey Aks, that peel ply of yours is coated nylon I think. That's good in that it will tear off easily, but bad in that it doesn't leave behind a good surface for bonding; the nylon leaves behind traces of the anti-epoxy coating all over the surface. Bob Krech posted about this some time ago; a paper from Douglas aircraft or some such where they traced a whole bunch of CF part delamination failures to nylon peel ply.

Whether or not this will be a problem depends on how you use it. Basically, if you're going to glue a fin on, or put more CF over an area where you had that peel ply, you probably ought to sand it (do the alcohol wipe thing too) some before moving on even though it has peel ply.

Otherwise, awesome!!
 
I was planning on doing that with the individual pieces once they were cut out.

I Never have scraps. Everything is put to use doing something or another. You still want that 29mm tube?

Alex
If you don't mind. I tried to make my own and it looked like crap. I cannot get the seam to lay down...
 
Hey Aks, that peel ply of yours is coated nylon I think. That's good in that it will tear off easily, but bad in that it doesn't leave behind a good surface for bonding; the nylon leaves behind traces of the anti-epoxy coating all over the surface. Bob Krech posted about this some time ago; a paper from Douglas aircraft or some such where they traced a whole bunch of CF part delamination failures to nylon peel ply.

Whether or not this will be a problem depends on how you use it. Basically, if you're going to glue a fin on, or put more CF over an area where you had that peel ply, you probably ought to sand it (do the alcohol wipe thing too) some before moving on even though it has peel ply.

Otherwise, awesome!!
Thanks for the tips. I was planning on sanding it for attachment anyways. Sanding down to the fibers will give me a much stronger bond as well.

Alex
 
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