Convert any Wildman Jr kit to a 2 stage build [Vindicator JR]

Shapeshifter Booster Stage done,Interstage coupler done. Sustainer stage done except for fins. Dang it, I may be too late for the updates. Oh well so far so good.

glenbo said:

Shapeshifter Booster Stage done,Interstage coupler done. Sustainer stage done except for fins. Dang it, I may be too late for the updates. Oh well so far so good.

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Lets see some pics...!

Vindicator 2-stage was last flown at Airfest 2 yrs ago, by Tim and suffered some major recovery issue. I did not see it nor remember what happened.

The Interstage vent band was missing and I put the rocket away to be repaired at some future date. Well.......I dug it out last night and was taken aback when I saw it. What I thought was going to be an easy fix [replacing vent band], turned out quite different.

This is what it originally looked like as you can see back on page one...how it was built.



What condition it's in now. The band gone and internal tube pushed WAY out of position. Internal BP busted loose. Endcap delaminated & shock cord attachment broke.



So I beat everything apart and now have to clean up all the hardened epoxy remaining. While at it, I cleaned about a pound of Argonia dirt out of the Sustainer,packed in-between the motor mount & airframe.



So now it's back to the drawing board. I'm going to re-design this & eliminate the inner tube and end cap.
I'll do a more conventional I/S with threaded rod and eyebolt in center. After measuring it will have a tad over 4in of internal space.

Enough to install a timer, so I can use a separation charge at motor burn out. Maybe down the road, when time permits have an aluminum I/S made like I did for the Punisher 2-stage.
For now I'll clean it up & re-fit for a nice smooth fit and slick separation. I've learned a lot about staging the last 2 years and will apply some lessons learned to the rebuild of I/S [interstage coupler].:dark:

Here are some pics of the Shapeshifter so far. I tried to show how I notched the inside of the interstate coupler slightly with a small rounded file to accommodate the conduit. The igniter fits no problem.. Recessed the AP retainer inside the sustainer 1/4 in. to allow a bit more room for nozzle cap. Almost included a 2nd. conduit so I could control staging from the sustainer av bay as well but it was a tight fit as it was. I'll fly it at URRF this June.

Made some progress over the weekend:

Got the BP's out of interstage coupler [I/S]

Wanting a more typical I/S added #6 threaded tie rods to the internal BP.
To get proper location Of BP, inserted a motor and nozzle cap. [Don't forget the nozzle cap, the need more room than just the nozzle!]



The nuts from tie rods extend into the I/S space, I want a bit more room,for the charge & wire, due to using a timer in bay to blow a separation charge.
I need a spacer for that. So I made one with flats to fit inside the nuts.





Set everything on top of nozzle and lower the I/S into position. I had tight fit to stay in place[BP with rods] when removed, then a few drops of CA to lock into place.

The Bp is just 1/8 thick, wanting more "bite" for glue. I cut a 1/2 inch long section of coupler and removed the needed slice from it, so I could fit it inside the I/S.

Slid down into place, poured some thickened epoxy in. Rolled it around to coat everything and let cure.




Need to add vent band, Inserted I/S into sustainer, marked for tape to catch excess epoxy.
Removed, taped to line around circumference, added glue to coupler.
Slid vent band in place, excess glue squeezed onto tape. removed tape and set aside to cure.



Added eyebolt to lid. Almost finished...looking like a new interstage!

Nice work Jim. Since I have already completed the original design I may as well try it out first. Too bad you were not able to see the flight and find out how the interstage coupler failed. What lengths shock cord are you using for this rocket? 1/4 kevlar cord like the y harnesses?

glenbo said:

. Almost included a 2nd. conduit so I could control staging from the sustainer av bay as well but it was a tight fit as it was. .

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Missed your post somehow & just read it...Shapeshifter was always one of my favorite Jr. kits.

Anyhow....I don't understand your reason for wanting to add a 2nd conduit. Isn't the 1st one already controlling the staging, from sustainer av-bay?

blackjack2564 said:

Missed your post somehow & just read it...Shapeshifter was always one of my favorite Jr. kits.

Anyhow....I don't understand your reason for wanting to add a 2nd conduit. Isn't the 1st one already controlling the staging, from sustainer av-bay?

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At the time I posted that I was thinking of controlling the stage separation and sustainer ignition from 2 separate pryo channels from my Raven located in the sustainer av bay hence the two conduits and would use a simple 2 channel stratologger for the boosters dual deploy. But you're original idea of using an altimeter with a 3rd channel like an RRC3 in the booster to control stage separation is much cleaner, alot less work and only one breakaway wire to deal with.

Got it.
Previously I left stages together & ignition [motor] separated stages, just to keep things REAL simple. After gaining experience, added timer based on motor burn out [accelerometer] not time. Separates stages immediately at booster burn out.
I now do separation charge from interstage. My logic is....drag separates on it's own, no need. If not, charge does separation duty.

My plan for this rendition is:

RRC3 in sustainer for staging. Set comparator to "no fire" unless rocket reaches a pre-determined altitude, "then fire" [based on motors used]
Pet 2 timer to do separation charge, mounted in I/S.
It comes default setting, fire at motor burn out, so no brainer there.
Been using one on other 2 stage and love it.

Motor eject in booster, with second channel on timer set for back up delay eject charge.
36in. chute & 20ft 1/4in Kevlar in booster.
2 ...... 2-256 shear pins in Booster to I/S It's a snug fit, were it loose I would use 3 pins.

Sustainer:
25ft Kevlar 1/4in. cord & 12in drogue apogee.
15ft " " & 45 in main.

2.... 2-256 shear pins NC to payload.


I found the previous flight record: All Motors CTI 38mm 2 flights.

1. Booster 3 grain I-345-WT Sustainer 1-grain G-115-WT [Altitude-3301ft] notes say staging hung up & rocket wiggled loose. This was separated by motor ignition, the 2 stages coasted together. [1.5 second ignition delay sustainer]

2. Same motor combo as flight 1. [Altitude 3608ft] notes say" drag separated, kinda!" My memory has no recollection of what I meant by that...LOL

3. flight that Tim did in Argonia & I have no idea what went on there, other than flight was: up part good, but ended ugly

So, I love flying my two-stage Shape Shifter Jr. I probably have 8-10 flights on it now. I still use drag/motor separation of the booster and sustainer. RRC3 in the sustainer controls 2nd stage ignition and other sustainer events (apogee, main). I have a RRC2+ in the I/S for popping the booster chute at apogee.

My favorite motor combos for this:
Booster: CTI I540 WT
Sustainer: CTI I212 SS or H143 SS both with ignition at 2.8 seconds after launch
-I also use the I470 WT in the booster if I want to shave off 600-700 feet from the flight.

The I540 to I212 combo puts this up about 5300ft so you can still sorta see it up there. And I really like using the Smoky Sams for the sustainer so you can get the full experience of seeing that second stage take off - leaves the I/S coupler a bit tarnished, but it's worth it.

There are a few pics of the rocket over in the gallery

I'll be completing my second stage for a Competitor 3 in a few months and I think I'll use a timer there for stage separation.

These Jr kits are a great way to play around with two-stage rockets

-brant

Jim, that last post of yours was full of great information, thanks as well for resurrecting this thread.

Wayco said:

I still have the 2 stage upgrade kit for my DS Jr. but the IS coupler is still pretty sloppy. Any tips on how I could improve it, or replace it with something else?

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f

I fooled with this one on & off for days...it's the older Curtis tubes, not the new vendor ones.[built in 2013] The original rocket was 1 year older than the 2-stage upgrade so tube from different batches .
The I/S fit is way off. Original coupler/av-bay is nice fit, but since you use the new tubes for sustainer fin-can...no go.
I tried truing up the rear end....vent band....I/S coupler. Everything is dead nuts on, you can't get a nats hair between the joints, but I have too much "play" in one direction. My I/S coupler is loose when one end is inserted and so tight on other end it won't go in.

Out came the calipers and there is a taper, so I've been fooling with various layers of clear packing tape to get a good fit. The airframe ID is off too.[bit of egg shape] I was going to make an aluminum I/S... but that won't do any good obviously...so hoping I can get a decent fit with tape. It's driving me nuts. You may get lucky with a different coupler, I tried several with no joy.

[That's why I ended up coating the one you have with epoxy & sanding to fit, but it only fits best in one orientation & you must keep it clean from residue the fit it so close]
I like my fit to be no wiggle but slip right off at motor burn out.

My advice is to keep rotating & mark the best fit/position & then work on it from there....either with tape or epoxy and sanding.
Yeah flying BP is Sooooo much simpler...ain't that the truth! Sometimes too much fun when we regress back in time!

farsidius said:

My favorite motor combos for this:
Booster: CTI I540 WT
Sustainer: CTI I212 SS or H143 SS both with ignition at 2.8 seconds after launch
-I also use the I470 WT in the booster if I want to shave off 600-700 feet from the flight.

The I540 to I212 combo puts this up about 5300ft so you can still sorta see it up there.
I'll be completing my second stage for a Competitor 3 in a few months and I think I'll use a timer there for stage separation.

These Jr kits are a great way to play around with two-stage rockets

-brant

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Thanks for those data points & you'll find the 3in. the ''sweet spot" for ease of prepping.
True the Jr conversion is a great economical "gate-way" drug, to find out if staging is for you.
Once you get several flights under your belt [which you have], I think results are much better by adding a separation charge.
Thinking back, I would still start out the way I did [no charge] just keeping it bare bones simple to begin with.

glenbo said:

Jim, that last post of yours was full of great information, thanks as well for resurrecting this thread.

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Well thank -you....I hope more folks find this helpful and others add their experiences here to see.

Jim, for the booster & sustainer main chutes did you use the Recon brand from Wildman? Would they pack OK in the 2.1 airframe?

glenbo said:

Jim, for the booster & sustainer main chutes did you use the Recon brand from Wildman? Would they pack OK in the 2.1 airframe?

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I'm not Jim, but I use a Recon 20" in my RW scarab, which is a 2.1" airframe. It's a snug fit, but it does fit.

more on topic- I just started building my 2 stage vindicator jr. last night. All red tubing, including the nose cone. I'll post pictures once it's done.

glenbo said:

Jim, for the booster & sustainer main chutes did you use the Recon brand from Wildman? Would they pack OK in the 2.1 airframe?

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I have a Topflight 36 in sustainer & Recon 30 in booster with Recon nomex in both.

djs said:

I'm not Jim, but I use a Recon 20" in my RW scarab, which is a 2.1" airframe. It's a snug fit, but it does fit.

more on topic- I just started building my 2 stage vindicator jr. last night. All red tubing, including the nose cone. I'll post pictures once it's done.

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You should have really good fit with the new tubes & couplers.
Are you making a tracker bay in NC? I put the GPS [ missleworks in mine] plenty of room for anyones GPS and antenna.
Good luck with build and be sure to put some pics here!

glenbo said:

Jim, for the booster & sustainer main chutes did you use the Recon brand from Wildman? Would they pack OK in the 2.1 airframe?

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I find the Recon chutes to be a really, really, realllly snug fit in the 2.1 tubes. I have a 30" i sometimes use in my Vin Jr and Shape Shifter Jr. I'm always nervous that it won't pop out, but it does (I use 1.2g bp for the main charge). The booster of my 2-stage Jr just gets a 24" standard TopFlight. I use the 30" Recon or 36" standard as the sustainer main.

I got myself in a jam , no room between aeropack and inner stage coupler


question if a person wanted to remove a retainer that has jb weld on in for the past 2 years would it come off with Vinegar ? , heat gun ?

I have removed them with a heat gun before. But it doesn't look like you have much room to heat up the retainer. You will most likely damage the fiberglass. Looks like it's time to figure out how to light the sustainer from the booster. That's how I have mine set up.

An RRC3 would do it nicely & still give dual deploy from the booster. If you wanted airstart + stage separation + dual deployment from the booster a Raven would be the ticket as it has 4 pyro channels & the size is right for that coupler.

Are you sure you can't get I/S coupler in there?
You must have the wire laying FLAT against the retainer, NO twist in the wire.

I know it's not easy, but I did get in. You could also try fishing a 26 ga wire in there and attaching match wire to that.

You might try filing [with round file] a groove inside the I/S to go over wire. I've seen that on some of these.

michigander said:

I got myself in a jam , no room between aeropack and inner stage coupler


question if a person wanted to remove a retainer that has jb weld on in for the past 2 years would it come off with Vinegar ? , heat gun ?

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Heat gun popped that today like it was butter , I used part of exhaust pipe as heat shield , sock in side motor tube so heat stayed local
1 5/8" flat washer inside retainer to drive against with pvc electrical pipe

Good for you! Glad it worked.

blackjack2564 said:

You might try filing [with round file] a groove inside the I/S to go over wire. I've seen that on some of these.

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+1 on that. That's what I had to do for mine.

michigander said:

Heat gun popped that today like it was butter , I used part of exhaust pipe as heat shield , sock in side motor tube so heat stayed local
1 5/8" flat washer inside retainer to drive against with pvc electrical pipe

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replaced with snap ring style slimline , there is a huge difference in room

+1 on the slimline. I had to do the same thing.

Hey Jim, got any pics of the I/C AV bay with your electronics setup? Do you recommend your new I/C setup vs. the older method?