Altimeter for Estes 806 Firestreak SST - Science Project

My son's science project requires 60 launches with recorded altitude based upon 3 different fins- 3 rockets - one from the kit - one with balsa wood fins - one with foam board fins.

The rocket we selected to use is the Estes Firestreak SST with A10-3T engines. Need an altimeter to fit inside these rockets. Is the Jolly Logic AltimeterOne a good choice at $50 a pop. We may get one for each rocket instead of having to switch after each flight to speed things up as there are two other team members that can split costs.

Thoughts?

Thanks for any assistance offered.

Jake

Jolly Logic has an excellent reputation; the folks that use them really like them.

If you find that's too big to fit, take a look at the MicroPeak from Altus Metrum. It also offers a USB Interface for downloading data.

The Jolly Logic units are self-contained, and have an LCD to display the data, making them really easy to use. The MicroPeak, with the USB interface, allows you to download the data, providing more detail, but it also means you need to have a computer handy between flights.

-Kevin

troj said:

Jolly Logic has an excellent reputation; the folks that use them really like them.

If you find that's too big to fit, take a look at the MicroPeak from Altus Metrum. It also offers a USB Interface for downloading data.

The Jolly Logic units are self-contained, and have an LCD to display the data, making them really easy to use. The MicroPeak, with the USB interface, allows you to download the data, providing more detail, but it also means you need to have a computer handy between flights.

-Kevin

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Thanks Kevin - I'll check that out.

troj said:

Take a look at the MicroPeak from Altus Metrum.

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Let me know if you have any questions -- we love science projects that involve rockets!

depending on your time frame, you might consider waiting for estes to release their altimeter:

https://www.rocketryforum.com/showthread.php?47299-New-Estes-Altimeter-for-2013&highlight=estes

Derek said:

depending on your time frame, you might consider waiting for estes to release their altimeter:

https://www.rocketryforum.com/showthread.php?47299-New-Estes-Altimeter-for-2013&highlight=estes

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Thanks Keith and Derek. Project has to be completed by end of first week of June. Rain/wind can ruin a weekend of launches so we need to do this sooner rather than later. How long do you think 60 launches will take? I'm figuring on a conservative number of 10 minutes per launch with one altimeter. If every team member gets one - 3 - one per rocket - I'm thinking we can launch 3 rockets every ten minutes and complete this in 3 1/2 hours.

Are you committed to the Firestreak? It is a small snap-together plastic kit which is too small to contain an AltimeterOne as the inner paper motor tube is too small in diameter for an AltimeterOne to fit inside. Because of the snap-together nature is going to be fussy (at best) to put alternate fins on as well.

The tiny Altus Metrum altimeter will not fit inside either....and it would require a separate compartment anyway - something which will be less-than-straightforward with that Firestreak.

Instructions for the Firestreak are here: https://www.estesrockets.com/media/instructions/000806_FIRESTREAK_SST.pdf

As for doing sixty launches in 3 1/2 hours....don't forget time to retrieve the rockets, read and record the altimeter data and then prep again for flight. On a big open field and with little wind (so that the rockets landed very close by) and with dedicated record-keepers - maybe.

If I were doing this I'd use the BMS School Rocket or something like the Estes Payloader II or even Nova Payloader. The latter I'd fly on B6-4s.

I agree with BEC on having problems getting an altimeter in these small rockets. I have used an Altimeter Two (same size as the Altimeter One, but more features) in an 18mm rocket, but it is a tight fit and takes a fair amount of time to load the wadding, chute/streamer and an altimeter into such a small space to get a good ejection. A slightly bigger rocket is MUCH easier to work with for your experiment. Adding these small altimeters means you are putting a lot of stuff into a very small space that was really designed for just the wadding and chute or streamer. The chances of an ejection failure because something gets stuck or the wadding got rammed in to tightly is significantly higher with a small rocket in my opinion.

jakesnake said:

My son's science project requires 60 launches with recorded altitude based upon 3 different fins- 3 rockets - one from the kit - one with balsa wood fins - one with foam board fins.

The rocket we selected to use is the Estes Firestreak SST with A10-3T engines. Need an altimeter to fit inside these rockets. Is the Jolly Logic AltimeterOne a good choice at $50 a pop. We may get one for each rocket instead of having to switch after each flight to speed things up as there are two other team members that can split costs.

Thoughts?

Thanks for any assistance offered.

Jake

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Since you're using an altimeter, I'm going to assume your project has something to do with aerodynamic drag. (If I'm wrong, please disregard.)

If that's true, you need a measurable effect - which means you need a rocket that has a lot of drag influence. A good place to start is to simulate the flight with a drag coefficient of about 0.6, and with no drag at all. Use a launch weight that takes the altimeter into account. Then ask yourself if drag had enough effect to measure, what with all the noise and other error.

Most rockets will be more than suited to the purpose, but a small, low altitude, over-weight rocket may not be. I remember a team (which shall remain nameless) that did a project backtracking a drag coefficient on a 60 gram A-powered alpha, and the difference that drag made in the flights was on the order of 6 feet. They had gone to the trouble of static testing motors from the same batch, and it was all for nothing.

It's very convenient to have low-altitude flights for a science fair project, but (if I dare suggest) they might not be the best choices for drag assessment.

Luck and Regards,
-LarryC

This is part of the reason why I suggested the MicroPeak as an alternative.

The Jolly Logic units are fantastic from everything I hear (no experience with them), and John's support is supposed to be top notch. But, they don't fit in all rockets.

Here's a picture of the MicroPeak, next to a penny. (My apologies for the lousy picture; didn't want to drag out the better camera) It'll easily fit in a small rocket.



-Kevin

troj said:

Here's a picture of the MicroPeak, next to a penny.

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There's a lovely picture of MicroPeak next to a dime (a better comparison as the dime weighs only slightly more than the altimeter with battery on the MicroPeak page:

https://altusmetrum.org/MicroPeak

Ok, guys, what am I missing here ? An altimeter in an Estes FIRESTREAK ? A BT-5 (about 1/2 inch diameter) based, 5 inch or so tall plastic ready-to-fly ? I say NO WAY.
Folks bring that rocket to our club launches all the time and alot of them end up in pieces after 1 or 2 flights if they are recovered at all. If it's not two late I'd go with BECs recommendations; you need at least a BT-50 (about 1 inch diameter) rocket with a payload compartment. I'd say the 60 flight requirement is quite ambitious even leaving out the time constraint. I'm thinking if you get your flights to a 1/2 hour interval you are doing well.

I've seen several Jolly Logics fly and I believe it's the best "plug and play" choice with it's LED display showing the altitude in standard decimal numbers. No counting beeps or flashing lights or data downloading required.

I have both MicroPeaks and Jolly Logic units (Ones and Twos). None of them will fit in the Estes Firestreak. It has a BT-5 inner tube inside that plastic shell. Also, the MicroPeak really needs a separate payload section (or at least similar protection).

I have flown AltimeterOnes in BT-20 birds (like an Estes Wizard or a modelrockets.us CeeYah).

I agree with Sam that they are the easiest to use - especially if you have kids taking the data down. You just read the display and it's pretty obvious on the rare occasion when you get either "no launch detected" or other bogus data.

That said, I LOVE the little MicroPeak and its data recording capability - but to get the data out beyond the peak altitude (which is flashed out in decimeters) requires a computer and the little interface device. Not something for small kids. The OP didn't say how old his son was.

BEC said:

Also, the MicroPeak really needs a separate payload section (or at least similar protection).

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I've wondered if you couldn't fly MicroPeak inside a small plastic bag that would let the barometer sense the air pressure but wouldn't let the corrosive gasses from the ejection charge get into the sensor and wreck it.

Keith,

Care to conduct a few experiments at NSL, perhaps?

BEC said:

Care to conduct a few experiments at NSL, perhaps?

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That sounds like a good idea -- providing a way to gather accurate flight performance data even for models without payload bays. I wonder if placing the altimeter in a plastic bag and attaching that to the shock cord with tape would suffice? I'll have a bunch of MicroPeaks that we can experiment with.

BEC said:

I have both MicroPeaks and Jolly Logic units (Ones and Twos). None of them will fit in the Estes Firestreak. It has a BT-5 inner tube inside that plastic shell. Also, the MicroPeak really needs a separate payload section (or at least similar protection).

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I saw one of these yesterday. I didn't realize that there was an inner tube. the published diameter of 0.89" leads you to believe an alt 1 or 2 would fit in there, but clearly that isn't the case.

I think the op needs to choose another rocket. If construction is the main concern, how about a skytrax. no assembly required, it has a payload bay and is avaialable at hobby lobby for < $10.


https://www.estesrockets.com/rockets/002454-skytraxtm

OK - my bad - I got the firestreak and as posters stated above, the altimeter one does not fit inside the rocket's tube diameter. The experiment will consist of the effects of three different fin types: plastic, balsa wood, and foam board upon altitude. I can trace balsa wood and foam board from a plastic fin, however, I can't cut out plastic fins (to my knowledge).

Does the Skytrax have plastic fins? Are foam board fins possible to attach?

Therefore, I need a model that can accept the altimeter one, has plastic fins, and I can also have two more identical rockets but attach balsa wood and foam board fins to those rockets. is this a doable experiment?

Thank you all for your help!! Trying to do a lot of things plus juggling my son and his teams rocket experiment....

yes, the skytrax has plastic fins. the lower green section in the above photo where the fins are is a one-piece plastic fin can so it probably wouldn't be the best rocket for your planned experiments.

Jake,

I see two Estes "E2X" kits that have individual plastic fins and are big enough to swallow an AltimeterOne: the Dragonite (2169) and the Banshee (2132). The Taser that's in the 1491 Taser Launch Set also has separate fins, but it's not available separately. I have no idea what's actually available at your source.

What is the variable you're actually testing? The thickness of the fins, or the surface finish, or the weight? The material really doesn't matter much on its own....

BEC said:

Jake,

I see two Estes "E2X" kits that have individual plastic fins and are big enough to swallow an AltimeterOne: the Dragonite (2169) and the Banshee (2132). The Taser that's in the 1491 Taser Launch Set also has separate fins, but it's not available separately. I have no idea what's actually available at your source.

What is the variable you're actually testing? The thickness of the fins, or the surface finish, or the weight? The material really doesn't matter much on its own....

Click to expand...

Bernard,

I'll check those rockets out - thank you! Here's the silly part; the materials' effect on altitude is the variable thats being tested! My son brought this up to his science teacher and the teacher approved the experiment. I gather the material will have variance of it's own as we can weigh each fin part or other elemts to add to the variance. Guess we may have to re-engineer the data if that what it comes down to.

Jake

Hmmmmm...... makes me wonder how much the science teacher understands. Depending on your balsa choice you're going to wind up with fins of different thicknesses as foam board is generally 7-8mm thick. So, you'll have different profile drag. And depending on how you finish the alternate fins, you'll have surface smoothness, and therefore parasite drag, variations. And you'll likely have small weight variations.

But you could have those same variations using only one material as well.....which is why I asked the question.

What grade is this?

7th grade GT (gifted and talented) class - usually 2 grade levels above on-grade.

In candor, you will likely be hard pressed to discover much effect this way.
May I suggest that you examine the effect of launch weight on altitude? That may seem rather dull, but if you choose light, higher-altitude rockets, you may discover some surprising relationships. And... I guarantee you'll have a nice effect to measure.

I understand what you are saying, and in all honesty, your method would be a lot easier than different fins...pre-built rockets would be a snap( no pun intended). However, even if the experiment shows no effect - then that is the end result of the research. My son is reluctant to change anything at this point in time and getting teachers to re-approve projects at late stages is far easier said than done. It's a good thought though and I may reconsider.