Am I a build snob?

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When you mentor a 4-H Aerospace club, you’ll have kids with all levels of experience. If they have experience building, I ask them to bring their projects to the workshops. we look over the work and always find something good to say.

The 4th graders see the rockets built by the advanced kids and say something to the effect of: I could never do that.

Without fail, someone in the group will tell that child that everything they need to do the finest work is in their head and their hands. I know this because each one of them has heard the same thing.

They help, and encourage each other to try new things. By the end of the season, everyone has learned something new. And by the time my advanced kids graduate, I’ve learned something from them.

My 4-H kids have taken honors in all three divisions at the state fair so often they’ve come to expect it, and last year we had out first State Champion.

I’m proud of those kids, and I’m proud of their work at all levels. If it sounds like I’m bragging about them, all I can say is guilty.

We all share the common joy of flying rockets, and no matter how beautiful a rocket starts out, a crash is the great equalizer.
 
Just out of curiosity, what is the rocketry version of a foodie called?
 
I should also add that I am a big fan of a good, shiny “one color wonder" paint coat over precisely attached fins with great airfoils on them.
 
Just out of curiosity, what is the rocketry version of a foodie called?

A model rocket enthusiast ;)

Each rocket we build is pretty much a work of art like a fine meal. Lots of prep work, time, attention to detail, some garnish, and the presentation. The first flight is the entree and you hope for a sweet landing treat at the end.
 
Some of us can appreciate a PB&J with the jelly squishing out of the sides. It might be a bit messy but it gets the job done. animated-smileys-eating-drinking-059.gif
 
Bet you enjoy eating gyros as well!:wink:

Dang right, and those beef dip sandwiches that leave puddle on the plate, or a chili cheese dog with all of the trimmings, all messy as heck. I really need to eat something.
 
I can appreciate anyone who builds a Mercury Redstone or Saturn 1B tower.
It makes no difference if it's not perfect. They took on the challenge and saw it through -


Well I haven't seen any photos posted on this thread yet, and since you mentioned it...here ya go.

For all those rivet couters out there..no milk stool here.


Sat V 48 081.jpg

Sat V 48 084.jpg

Sat V 48 086.jpg
 
Those pics are all of a model, right? The first one looks scary real:jaw::clap:
 
I can appreciate anyone who builds a Mercury Redstone or Saturn 1B tower.
It makes no difference if it's not perfect. They took on the challenge and saw it through -
Well I haven't seen any photos posted on this thread yet, and since you mentioned it...here ya go.

That's an awesome launch tower!! What scale is that Saturn V? At first I thought it might be an Estes 100 scale model but the one I built doesn't separate the 1st and 2nd stages, and yours looks like it does - the roll patterns zig zag.

I don't know for sure, but I think hcmbanjo was talking about the Launch Escape Towers on the Redstone or Saturn, not the launch towers themselves. The tiny little structures on these rockets are difficult to build on a large scale model, but darn near impossible on a small scale. The one I built for the Zooch Redstone was so small I had to use tweezers to place the tower pieces into glue and then onto the structure.


For all those rivet couters out there..no milk stool here.
Isn't the milk stool just for Saturn 1B launches? There wouldn't be one used to launch a Saturn V.

480px-ASTP_Saturn_IB.jpg
 
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Now that is a sweet looking rocket!
you are correct Mushtang...the milk stool was only used for the saturn 1b...it was required to lift the rocket up so that it could use the Saturn V's launch tower (LUT)

[Isn't the milk stool just for Saturn 1B launches? There wouldn't be one used to launch a Saturn V.

View attachment 127525
[/QUOTE]
 
Yes..this is a model, actually it's a Revell 1/144 scale, the tower is a paper model done by EDUCRAFT DIVERSIONS..

https://www.educraftdiversions.org/Pr...1-70-SCALE-LUT

Of course I didn't pay this current price, when I got mine it was only around forty bucks, WOW it's gone up considerably since then. All this model building rekindled about three and a half years ago, I got the real itch to go see Kennedy Space center, the first day school was out for summer I took both my daughters, it had been about twenty years since my last visit. After coming home the model building itch was burning F-1 hot so I ran to the local Hobby town and found this Sat-V. After building it I HAD to have a good display for it so I started searching the net, this is when I stumbled on to paper models. This monster was my first paper build, and I'll tell ya, it's one hell of a model to cut your teeth on.

The Sat-V is a complete three stage that all comes apart and has the LLM.

Sat V 48 089.jpg Sat V 48 092.jpg Sat V 48 093.jpg

It's actually quite amazing what you can do with paper..these are all 1/48 scale

Sat V 48 016.jpg Sat V 48 046.jpg

 
Beautiful job!!
are those rockets, the Saturn V, Gemini Titan and Redstone all the same scale?

Yes..this is a model, actually it's a Revell 1/144 scale, the tower is a paper model done by EDUCRAFT DIVERSIONS..

https://www.educraftdiversions.org/Pr...1-70-SCALE-LUT

Of course I didn't pay this current price, when I got mine it was only around forty bucks, WOW it's gone up considerably since then. All this model building rekindled about three and a half years ago, I got the real itch to go see Kennedy Space center, the first day school was out for summer I took both my daughters, it had been about twenty years since my last visit. After coming home the model building itch was burning F-1 hot so I ran to the local Hobby town and found this Sat-V. After building it I HAD to have a good display for it so I started searching the net, this is when I stumbled on to paper models. This monster was my first paper build, and I'll tell ya, it's one hell of a model to cut your teeth on.

The Sat-V is a complete three stage that all comes apart and has the LLM.

View attachment 127562 View attachment 127563 View attachment 127564

It's actually quite amazing what you can do with paper..these are all 1/48 scale

View attachment 127565 View attachment 127566

 
Yes..all three are 1/48. The Gemini and Mercury look like toy's compared to the Sat-V.

These would be the perfect test for the question of build snob.
 
my gosh but that Saturn V was a BEAST! I cannot believe how it dwarfs those other rockets...I mean, the Redstone looks like a match stick next to it....what a huge leap in technology...just amazing. I have seen pictures of these standing next to one another...but your builds just really bring home what an engineering effort the Saturn V was...just look at that thing next to the Titan....it has to be 3 times as tall and the difference in volume is unbelievable...and just think..it was designed, fabricated and flown in less than 10 years...with slide rules.

Wes of Dr. Zooch rickets summed the Saturn V up best in one sentence...the Saturn V was conceived by genius, designed by the brilliant, built by the gifted, flown by the brave ....and funded by the short-sighted.

thanks again for posting these pictures...just amazing work.

Yes..all three are 1/48. The Gemini and Mercury look like toy's compared to the Sat-V.

These would be the perfect test for the question of build snob.
 
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you did an incredible job with those builds...I can't get over how realistic the F-1 engines look...just fantastic!
 
It's my understanding that the Sat-V holds the record of THE most complex, largest and most powerful rocket ever built. This is why I've been following closely the development of the new SLS. This is one of the best videos of the new system, it's supposed to be bigger, more complex, and more powerful than the Sat-V.

[YOUTUBE]X50OOzz0ufk[/YOUTUBE]

I live just three hours from KSC, the first time I was there the Sat-V was laid out, out side, when I was there three years ago it's all indoors now, and walking the floor from end to end, seeing each stage, and especially the joining ring between the first and second stage, where all the electronics are mounted. What was really the trip was seeing the components, compared to technology today they all looked prehistoric. And whats really crazy is our modern day cell phones have 100 times more computation and data processing then the whole Sat-V.

Any way, not intending to get so far from the thread topic, I check out the details on other peoples builds also, however if I would have found the rocket mentioned in the beginning I would have chalked it up to a young beginner build. If some guy in his twenties or thirties would have walked up and said, " hey, that's my rocket" then I might question his motivation and build skills.
 
It's my understanding that the Sat-V holds the record of THE most complex, largest and most powerful rocket ever built. This is why I've been following closely the development of the new SLS. This is one of the best videos of the new system, it's supposed to be bigger, more complex, and more powerful than the Sat-V.

[YOUTUBE]X50OOzz0ufk[/YOUTUBE]

I live just three hours from KSC, the first time I was there the Sat-V was laid out, out side, when I was there three years ago it's all indoors now, and walking the floor from end to end, seeing each stage, and especially the joining ring between the first and second stage, where all the electronics are mounted. What was really the trip was seeing the components, compared to technology today they all looked prehistoric. And whats really crazy is our modern day cell phones have 100 times more computation and data processing then the whole Sat-V.

Any way, not intending to get so far from the thread topic, I check out the details on other peoples builds also, however if I would have found the rocket mentioned in the beginning I would have chalked it up to a young beginner build. If some guy in his twenties or thirties would have walked up and said, " hey, that's my rocket" then I might question his motivation and build skills.

Saturn V was the most powerful *American* rocket ever built... it can also be termed the most powerful successful rocket ever built. The Russian N-1 was actually larger and more powerful... it's thrust at liftoff was right around 11 million pounds versus the 7.5 million pound thrust of Saturn V. N-1's first stage was powered by 30 NK-33 kerosene/oxygen engines built by Kuznetsov (the same engines now power the Antares rocket that just launched last week from Wallops... the new Orbital Science Corp. rocket to fly their Cygnus resupply craft to the space station. While N-1 was more powerful in terms of liftoff thrust, it's payload was about half that of Saturn V, so technically speaking, in terms of payload capability, the Saturn V is the most powerful rocket ever built. N-1 never flew successfully in three attempts. The Soviets SO underfunded their space program during the development of N-1 that they didn't even construct a test stand to test fire the first stage... hence the first time the entire rocket was fired was when it launched. The Soviets also used a very complex plumbing arrangement to feed propellants to the 30 engines on the first stage, and a complex electronic control system called "KORD" to control the engines, and throttle them to steer the vehicle, and shut down opposing engines on opposite sides of the rocket if an engine failed. The N-1 was designed to lose up to 4 engines and remain flying. The engines themselves were produced in batches and there wasn't money to test them individually, so they would test one engine basically out of a batch of six, and if that ONE passed, they certified the entire bunch as flight ready. Quality control was a huge issue for the Soviets as it was very nearly nonexistant... one N-1 was lost when a nut or some other piece of metal was left in a propellant line and was sucked into the high speed, high pressure turbopump, and the engine practically exploded, damaging several engines around it. Another N-1 was lost when a fire broke out in the engine compartment and burned the KORD wiring, after KORD detected the fire and shut down the engines-- the N-1 laid over and plummeted back down directly onto the launch pad and exploded, destroying the pad and killing a number of workers in underground facilities below the pad. The last N-1 got to within a matter of seconds of first stage shutdown and second stage ignition, but roll control (IIRC) was lost and the rocket spun itself apart shortly before staging. The program was canceled before there was another launch, despite the fact that N-1 had been heavily reworked and there was great optimism for a successful launch on the next attempt... the vehicle was basically ready to go when the program was canceled, and the remaining N-1's were scrapped-- in fact, there's pictures of the N-1's remaining parts being used for various facilities around Baikonur... the grid fins were made into a gazebo of sorts for picnics, the first stage engine heatshield was used to make an outdoor pavilion cover... several propellant tanks were cut apart to make sheds for equipment... things like that.

SLS *may* end up being more powerful than Saturn V, IF it ever actually flies. I personally don't put it's odds too high-- it's too expensive, and I'd lay odds it gets canceled before it ever flies... and even if by some miracle it DOES fly, I don't see it lasting long-- or much if anything seriously being done with it... current estimates for the completion of SLS is standing at around $36-40 billion dollars, from what I've read. That's a TON of money for a rocket that's basically supposed to be SAVING money by reusing a lot of the shuttle technology-- IE the SSME engines, boosters, and ET technology. In point of fact, other than the SSME's, the whole rocket is practically new, since it's completely redesigned from the shuttle ET and SRB's from which it was "derived"... the five segment boosters are completely different from the shuttle four segment boosters inside, and they're not even going to be reusable-- the remaining steel shuttle SRB casings will be flown on the test flights and, perhaps, the early operational flights (if it ever gets that far) of the SLS in EXPENDABLE MODE, with no parachutes or recovery gear whatsoever... they will boost the vehicle to speed and altitude and then tumble into the ocean and sink just like previous expendable rockets. The core will do the same, taking its expensive SSME's with it. This will REQUIRE more billions be spent to develop an advanced booster, either solid or liquid propellant (ATK is proposing new spiral-filament wound composite casings with new propellant mixture capable of increasing lift capability, and Dynetics is proposing reviving the F-1 with an F-1 derived engine called F-1B, which would use a pair of these engines to power a kerosene/oxygen boosters to replace the existing SRB's.

Yeah, JSC is 65 miles from my back door, so I get over there now and again... take the kids about every year... really enjoy the Saturn V display there, of course ours isn't as nice as the one at KSC or at MSFC... still a very impressive machine. Actually the vehicles "brains" were in the instrument unit, a 21.6 foot diameter by 3 foot high ring constructed by IBM for the Saturn V... there were various "control boxes" that relayed and received signals from the main instrument unit, which were located mostly on the aft ends of the stages (mostly engine control boxes and such). You're right though, the electronics in the Saturn V look positively ancient-- like something out of a V-2 or something... very primitive... BUT, then again, it WORKED... "more complex" doesn't always mean "better"... Look at the Russians and their Soyuz and R-7 Soyuz rocket... it's the same basic design, with some "improvements" along the way, that first flew in 1957 at the very dawn of the space age...

Later! OL JR :)
 
I stand corrected, I was hoping you were tooling around on this thread, I figured my last post would draw you out. This is why I said, "it's my understanding" because I wasn't absolutely sure. Besides you, the only other person I know with such a vast knowledge of space history is Paperkosmonaut over on PM.

That's real interesting about the SLS, I can't believe the boosters aren't going to be recovered, I mean if this system is supposed to be a more economically efficient why in the world wouldn't they use the same system as the shuttle. It was also my understanding that this ship is intended for deep space exploration, not just hauling equipment and supplies to the ISS, if this is the case then reuse of the SRB's would be less crucial.

You're right on the electronics ring, after typing it out I thought about the location of the ring, it couldn't be the connector between the first and second stages, that gets cut loose after the first stage drops off. I couldn't remember where it was located, I believe it's actually under the LLM. Any way, it sure would be great to see a new system like the SLS launching again every few months, especially when I can see the launches from my back yard.

Here's what I see when the shuttle flies..

Shuttle,back yard view.jpg
 
I stand corrected, I was hoping you were tooling around on this thread, I figured my last post would draw you out. This is why I said, "it's my understanding" because I wasn't absolutely sure. Besides you, the only other person I know with such a vast knowledge of space history is Paperkosmonaut over on PM.

That's real interesting about the SLS, I can't believe the boosters aren't going to be recovered, I mean if this system is supposed to be a more economically efficient why in the world wouldn't they use the same system as the shuttle. It was also my understanding that this ship is intended for deep space exploration, not just hauling equipment and supplies to the ISS, if this is the case then reuse of the SRB's would be less crucial.

You're right on the electronics ring, after typing it out I thought about the location of the ring, it couldn't be the connector between the first and second stages, that gets cut loose after the first stage drops off. I couldn't remember where it was located, I believe it's actually under the LLM. Any way, it sure would be great to see a new system like the SLS launching again every few months, especially when I can see the launches from my back yard.

Here's what I see when the shuttle flies..

View attachment 127757

Thank you... Love the pic! I wish I could get to Florida more than I do... we went out last summer after visiting the wife's family in Indiana; we'd saved our pennies to take our eight year old daughter to Ricky Rat Land... LOL:) Course being the family vacation, I dragged her and Betty to KSC/CCAFS for three or four days... took all the bus tours and special tours except the firing room tour... Loved the pad tour, the VAB tour, and the "then and now" tour over to CCAFS... VERY cool stuff, as well as parts of a couple days in the rocket garden and visitor center of KSC and the Astronaut Hall of Fame... Didn't get to see the new museum at CCAFS-- only the one in the blockhouse by Pad 5. Went to the USAF Ordnance Museum at Ft. Walton Beach on the way back to Texas-- spent the better part of a day in there... VERY cool stuff! When I got back to Texas, Wes at Dr. Zooch Rockets emailed me and asked if I'd like to build a couple of his kits to be displayed in the CCAFS gift shop... of course I JUMPED at the chance, since I do beta-builds for the doc's new kits before he offers them for sale, to make sure all the kinks are worked out. In fact, I was messing around with the "virtual tour" of CCAFS, and you can actually see one of the models I constructed in the glass case under the register just inside the door of the gift shop in the old museum at CCAFS... along with boxed Dr. Zooch kits... kinda feels cool to have something I constructed in a museum... (BTW, if anybody on the board goes out there, PLEASE take a pic of the models and send it to me... I'd love to have one and probably won't get back out that way for at least several years...) There's a thread around here about "Dr. Zooch Rockets headed to CCAFS Museum" or something to that effect...

Had some interesting conversations with some of the retirees that usually work as tour guides out at KSC... we had a couple of really knowledgeable guys, both retired engineers from KSC, running one of our bus tours... I couldn't resist asking him about the "mood" among what's left of the KSC workforce and the "scuttlebutt" they inevitably hear, because doubtlessly they still know people "on the inside"... and I was curious as to whether they were optimistic or not about SLS, and the future of the space program in general... he said that folks were VERY cautious, to very cautiously optimistic... of course this was before the election last year, and he said that the general consensus was that a LOT hinged on the election, but he wasn't particularly sure that anything GOOD would come from EITHER direction regardless of who won... the reelection meant that the "status quo" was probably pretty secure... Given the MASSIVE layoffs across the board with the NASA contractors, and the lack of "vision", funding, or even motivation by the leadership, there's not a lot of excitement that I can see... no clear leadership or guiding vision-- just a LOT of uncertainty... Heck I was at JSC's visitor center (Space Center Houston) and was talking to some folks, took the tram tour, and JSC is practically like a ghost town... and this was in the middle of the week and during working hours... other than the tearing out of the shuttle simulators in the Space Station Training Facility (formerly the "shuttle training facility") there's very little to nothing to be seen going on... parking lots practically empty, very little vehicular traffic around the facilities... it's very sad. JSC took a HUGE jobs hit with the cancellation of Constellation, and even though Orion continues, it seems to be at a snail's pace...

KSC was much the same when we were there last summer... I commented in a post after I got back that we were on one of the first tours into the VAB since the shuttle program started 40 years ago... all during the shuttle program VAB tours had been "off limits" due to the dangers of handling fully-fueled SRB's, and of course security concerns... It was amazing to be in there, but the place was practically deserted... other than the BPC and Orion mockup and LES tower for the upcoming EFT-1 test flight on a Delta IV Heavy next year, and the Endeavour which was sitting forlornly in one of the high bays opposite where the shuttles were stacked, it was as if the place were a pharaoh's tomb, opened after countless ages, smelling strongly of old cosmoline, that miraculous chemical of mechanical mummification, akin to frankincense and myrrh to the kings of old, a tomb filled with the wonders and miracles and glories of a bygone age, now lost to time... a reminder of what was ONCE possible but is no more... Hopefully it was me being melancholy, but from what I've read, seen, and heard, there's not a terrible lot of excitement or optimism amongst the lower echelons, where things actually get done... Despite all the cheerleading pronouncements from on high, which are just that-- a lot of propaganda...

I don't know exactly WHEN the decision was taken to dump recovery of the shuttle SRB's... evidently after the only partially successful flight of the Ares I-X a few years ago... Remember the Ares I-X stack consisted of a "freshness date expired" four-segment regular shuttle SRB, topped with a fifth "dummy segment" mass simulator to get the weight right, a "battleship" version of the interstage frustrum that would connect the second stage on top, and a dummy "tuna-can" upper stage mass simulator to mimic the weight distribution of a fully-fueled Ares I launch, topped by a faux boilerplate BPC and LES tower/motor... The SRB was meant to be recovered in a simulation of the recovery of a five-segment booster on an Ares I flight, testing the new parachutes IIRC... and it failed... the booster WAS recovered, but it was SO badly bent and twisted as to be unusable and it had to be scrapped. The REAL five-segment boosters using the shuttle casings would stage much higher and faster than the shuttle four segment boosters did (though still not high and fast enough to really take the load off the upper stage of Ares I, which is part of the reason it was having such performance problems getting a lunar Orion to orbit). This would cause a LOT of issues with SRB recovery-- things tend to get VERY hot reentering at Mach 4 IIRC... and of course the minimum 20% mass increase and length increase over the stock four-segment SRB created a lot of issues for the parachutes and a lot greater impact energy at splashdown, as well as larger bending forces on the longer casings at splashdown. I guess after considerable number-crunching, they decided that recovery really wasn't worth the effort. It's been said that the recovery of the SRB's was NEVER really financially efficient anyway-- it would have been just as cheap to let them sink and build BRAND NEW ONES for ever shuttle flight, as the costs to recover them and refurbish them, ship them to Utah to have new propellant cast into them, and then ship the segments back to the Cape, store them, then move them back from CCAFS to the VAB and stack the boosters for another flight... So it was basically argued for the entire shuttle system-- even the SSME's were said to be so expensive to check out and inspect and refurbish and test fire for every flight, that had the SSME's been put into serial production and bought in massive "lots" instead of in half-dozen bits at a time, that they'd have been just about as cheap to simply throw away after each mission-- apparently the Russians had it right with their Buran shuttle-- since they didn't have the money, time, or desire to build a reusable, refurbishable LH2 rocket engine, they simply designed a new hydrogen powered throwaway rocket engine to power their Energia shuttle booster rocket... and put the main engines on the bottom of the core vehicle tanks rather than on the recoverable space shuttle glider itself, which only sported a couple manuevering engines on the back... This also allowed their shuttle booster rocket, Energia, to be used in "stand alone mode" to boost other payloads into space in place of their Buran shuttle-- such as their Polyus space battle station, which was the only other cargo ever launched on the Energia except their Buran shuttle... Polyus' booster engines fired in the wrong orientation, and instead of boosting it into its final orbit, they deorbited the complex and sent it crashing into the Pacific...

SLS is NOT more efficient than shuttle. It's not even supposed to be. The first thing to realize about space "pronouncements" be they from NASA or politicians or whatever, is that 95% of it is pure BS to justify what they're doing now... it's political gamesmanship. The whole purpose of the "shuttle derived solution" was to keep the shuttle workforce, the NASA contractor teams that had built, tested, stacked, moved, certified, operated, and flown the shuttle systems for the past three decades gainfully employed and on the payroll at NASA. After Apollo wound down, with the long drawn-out development of the shuttle which took 9 years from shuttle approval in 1972 until the first flight in 1981, NASA's workforce was basically pink slipped and gutted... while it's designers worked in offices tinkering with the shuttle, the actual guys that built, stacked, checked out, flew, and operated the systems and the rockets were all let go, by and in large, because other than the three Skylab flights in 1973 and the single ASTP Saturn IB launch in 1975, there was NOTHING for them to do. Folks have to eat, so once they lost their jobs, they went elsewhere around the country and got other jobs... some in aerospace, some doing other things... when the shuttle was FINALLY getting close to being ready, and NASA started looking to rehire folks, they naturally wanted to start with the guys who'd been doing things before and knew how to work on and operate space systems... Most of them told NASA to go pound sand-- they were cut loose and uprooted their families and had to move elsewhere when NASA let them go without a second thought years before-- they weren't tripping over themselves to uproot themselves again and go running back to NASA who'd kicked them to the curb back then... and NASA has STILL never *fully* recovered from that "brain drain" of the 70's... there's STILL things to this day NASA doesn't really know how they did-- because the guys doing it were let go and NOBODY was trained to take their place... SO, a "shuttle derived" rocket was proposed to "bridge the gap" between the shuttle retirement and the new system coming online, (Ares I/V) and to keep *most* of the shuttle people gainfully employed, with their valuable experience and knowledge intact. Due to the mess that Constellation became and its ultimate cancellation, that didn't happen... NASA has been gutted once again, and now there is actually VERY LITTLE reason to stick with a 'shuttle derived" solution. Ares I was supposed to be the "quick-n-easy" shuttle replacement crew rocket, the "safer, simpler, sooner" solution to shuttle retirement when it was adopted as the program of record in 2004/5. It turned out to be NONE of those things... and basically when all was said and done, the first stage SRB, upgraded from the four-segment shuttle booster to the five segment Ares I SRM, was basically a completely new design-- just reusing the old steel tube shuttle casing segments with entirely new 'innards'. The second stage was also a completely new animal, powered by a completely new rocket engine (first J-2S and then J-2X) and the design suffered a lot of problems that I won't go into here... suffice it to say it was braindead by the time it was canceled... Not to say it COULDN'T work-- ANYTHING will work if you throw enough money at it! Thing was, basically all Ares I did was replicate what Delta IV Heavy, or barring that Atlas V Heavy, could already do... and at ENORMOUS expense!

To be continued...

OL JR :)
 
Continued...

As Ares I performance slipped and mounting problems forced more of the payload onto Ares V, it grew absolutely enormous, well past the point of diminishing returns, and it STILL wasn't enough! Ares V never got much past the drawing board, and not particularly far on that either... but it was enough to know that it would have been BREATHTAKINGLY expensive... Ares I as well-- projections put it at, optimistically, about the same cost per-flight as a shuttle (about $450 million or so at the time, per flight of Ares I, not including Orion). These were the OPTIMISTIC projections-- more pessimistic (but usually more REALISTIC) projections put it at closer to $700 million per flight... Ares V was, even this early in the design phase, was projected to be around $1.3 billion per flight... we now know that the "final driveout price" of the shuttle program, from the word "Go!" in 1972 until final "wheel stop" and decomissioning of shuttle in 2012, divided by the 135 flights of the system, was about $1.1 billion dollars a flight... the $450 million per flight costs were derived from the yearly shuttle program operating budget divided by the number of flights... basically the "gas, oil, batteries, and tires" cost of keeping the shuttle program running on a yearly basis... not including development. Ares I was originally projected in 2005 to cost around $4 billion (IIRC) to develop... it had blown through $9 billion (with Orion) when it was canceled in 2010, and was projected to come in at around $20 billion or so by the time it was "operational" (but this was well before even CDR, when the project was basically still on the drawing board and the final design not even approved... a lot of VERY expensive problems can crop up between then and the system being operational...

SLS isn't going to fly every couple of months... even if the projections for the system unfold as NASA is planning, the SLS isn't going to fly but every other YEAR at most... maybe only once every THREE years... supposedly the first flight is to be in 2017 (which I wouldn't put ANY stock in-- remember that in 2004 Ares I was supposed to be flying by 2010, but the ink wasn't dry on the papers approving it and it was 2014... by the time it was canceled, the date had slipped to 2016/2017... (but what they DIDN'T tell you was that was at only a "20% confidence level"-- the "real" number (higher confidence level) was 2018 or 2019.) Even if by some miracle SLS DOES fly its first test flight in 2017, it won't fly again until 2021. Operational "missions" will only fly about once every 2-3 years after that... SO, the glory days of the Apollo program sending missions to the moon every 4-6 months, or shuttles flying every 2-3 months or so, are LONG gone... our space program is going to look a LOT more like the Chinese space program, launching their Shenzhou's every 2-3 years or so...

The problem is, the costs of a space system are closely tied to its flight rate and production capabilities, along with the support costs. This is why a system has to be carefully designed so that all these parameters are lined up in the most efficient way. It's also critically important to CORRECTLY and HONESTLY assess the flight rate and payloads of a given system... This was the fatal flaw in the shuttle decision-- the numbers were EXTREMELY overoptimistic on flight rates... but such high flight rates were necessary to justify the costs of a reusable shuttle. The simple fact was, there wasn't enough payloads for shuttle at the flight rates projected, and there wasn't enough money to pay for those additional payloads. SLS is in much the same boat-- it's an expensive system with a massive lift capability for enormous, heavy payloads, BUT THERE IS NO MONEY TO DEVELOP THESE PAYLOADS... in fact, NONE have been approved for development save Orion/MPCV... and Orion alone can basically do VERY LITTLE in space-- loop around the moon, that's about it... it doesn't even have the capability to brake into lunar orbit and return to Earth, nor can it leave the vacinity of Earth without a propulsion stage (and iCPS, the Interim Cryogenic Propulsion Stage, which is to be a modified version of the Delta IV Cryogenic Upper Stage, is the only one in the program right now). The Altair lunar lander was canceled YEARS go, LONG before Constellation got the ax, to pay for cost overruns and problems on Ares I and Orion. You can't land anywhere without a lander... and Orion has already been stripped to the bone of everything to make living in it on longer-duration missions in space to save weight (and it's STILL 4,000 pounds too heavy for its parachutes last I heard). All that "extra mass" in Orion was shifted onto the 'cargo' years ago already-- but there's NO CARGO approved and in design... a deep space had (DSH) will be necessary for asteroid missions or "long duration" missions exceeding at most perhaps a couple weeks in Orion (and that with no toilet and no amenities, with all the provisions it could carry). Yet, none is being funded. NASA 'plans' call for Gateway stations at LaGrange points behind the moon, and vague talk of asteroid missions with a DSH of some type and MMSEV (multi-mission space exploration vehicle) which is designed as a "runabout" basically for astronauts-- a pressurized crew work vehicle with large windows and manipulator arms, suit ports, etc... to be capable of either maneuvering in space or attached to a rover chassis to serve as a pressurized rover.) Yet NONE of these things have been funded by Congress... and basically Orion and SLS are sucking up all the available funding-- to the point that the unmanned space exploration program is being GUTTED of funding to pay for their development (along with the bloated and mismanaged James Webb Space Telescope which is HORRIBLY overbudget and overschedule).

The EELV rockets suffered the same fate-- their flight rates were projected during the "dot-com" bubble when the burgeoning telecom business looked like it would need to launch fleets of orbiting communications satellites... but then the bubble burst, and basically the EELV's are now carrying the costs of an infrastructure designed to build and fly at least twice as many or more rockets every year than there are currently payloads for. This massive and expensive "overcapacity" drives up the per-flight costs of every vehicle that IS launched. Shuttle, with its expensive refurbishment of the orbiter, engines, SRB's, etc after every mission, with the huge "standing army" required to refurbish and prepare the system for flight and operate it, ended up not at the unbelievably optimistic $10 million per flight costs projected during development, but at around $1.2 billion per flight, as previously mentioned (I've seen $1.3 billion quoted as well). This was with a system that was flying SEVERAL TIMES PER YEAR... say 4-6 times a year (the most shuttles that ever flew in a year was 9 in 1985 IIRC). That means those yearly SUPPORT COSTS are divided by the number of flights per year... in the case of SLS, it means that since it will only fly once every 2-3 years, it will have to bear the support costs of the personnel and infrastructure required to support it for when it does fly, which will make every SLS flight LUDICROUSLY expensive... SLS will require a lot of people to make it fly-- not as many as shuttle to be sure, but the flight rate is going to be a LOT lower-- anywhere from 1/4 to 1/8 the shuttle flight rates... which means that its support costs are going to be EXTREMELY high on a per-mission basis... same with Orion, unless they do a "batch build" and then shut down production for years, perhaps forever (you have to keep the people around that know how to build them, after all-- once they're gone, they're gone... plus maintaining the CAPABILITY to build more isn't without costs, either... for personnel or equipment, tooling, etc).

SLS will use the remaining shuttle SRB casings (about ten flight sets IIRC) in "expendable mode" and allow them to sink after each flight... SLS is already planning for an "upgrade" to either new expendable high-performance filament-spiral wound casing SRB's using higher-performing propellant mixtures, or advanced liquid rocket boosters, LRB's, with the current front-runner being the Dynetic's twin-F-1B powered liquid boosters... either will cost CONSIDERABLE development money. Either way, reusability isn't even on the table... The ASRB's are probably the front runners politically (which makes all the difference) but the F-1 LRB's would be the most versatile, give the most performance (by current estimates) and give the most capabilities for the future...

SLS development isn't projected to be anything like a bargain either... one of the primary reasons for choosing a "shuttle derived" rocket-- on the face of it, it would seem that reusing the shuttle boosters, reusing the shuttle SSME rocket engines and making new ones of a simpler design to cut costs, and reusing the shuttle external tank and modifying it into a core stage would save tremendous amounts of development time and money... but this isn't the case. SLS development cost estimates are running about $36 BILLION dollars last I read... IOW MASSIVELY expensive... IMHO it would be cheaper to just go with a clean-sheet design, remaking a "modern" version of the Saturn V, paying to complete the new Dynetics F-1B engines for the first stage, and using J-2X and RL-10 for the upper stages. The SLS core is basically an entirely new stage from scratch anyway-- so why use the limited-thrust SSME's and expensive boosters at all... You're correct that SLS is NOT designed to carry cargo strictly to LEO, but so far, no "real" missions exist for it otherwise... NASA has dropped plans to basically EVER use Orion/MPCV for ISS crew transport operations, because "Orion is too expensive to use for a LEO vehicle"... but other than a "loop around the moon" in the early 2020's and fuzzy plans for an asteroid mission "maybe someday" there's really no job for Orion either... NASA supporters will loudly proclaim "yes, but Orion is designed as a "DEEP SPACE" capsule"... true, but SpaceX's Dragon is ALSO designed to support deep space missions with appropriate modifications... there's nothing "magical" that Orion possesses that Dragon simply cannot... while true Dragon doesn't *at present* does NOT mean that it cannot be MODIFIED to support deep space mission capabilities... Elon Musk had this in mind from the very start of developing Dragon in the first place... and basically there's little reason to develop the 70 tonne (more like 90 tonnes according to NASA upgrades already implemented into SLS) let alone the much more expensive to develop and operate 130 tonne version with ANOTHER upper stage... there are mission designs that could break up the cargo into more, smaller launches... but NASA has "set its mind" on the plans its drawn up, and won't take 'no' for an answer... Neither is Congress likely to allow itself to be "strongarmed" into coughing up more funding for SLS or deep space hardware for future missions... and SLS and Orion by themselves can basically do nothing of any value...

It's quite likely that the money the government will be able to put toward space in the coming years will fall, not rise, and NASA has basically NO plans for such a contingency-- in fact their plans don't even work at the CURRENT funding levels, which was the problem with Constellation-- without an additional infusion of money from Congress, it simply wouldn't work. That simply wasn't in the cards... Now NASA is betting everything, AGAIN, on more money *miraculously* appearing, which is less likely now than it was then...

So, round and round we go...

Later! OL JR :)

PS... yup, the IU on Saturn V is right under the SLA panels; the LM basically sat inside/on top of the IU during launch and TLI...
 
JR,

Is there any particular reason why something like the Delta IV Heavy can't be man-rated?

FC
 
JR,

Is there any particular reason why something like the Delta IV Heavy can't be man-rated?

FC

Originally right after the CAIB and the announcement of the VSE by Bush Jr., back when Sean O'keefe and Admiral Steidle were coming up with the "spiral development" plan to meet the goals of the "moon, Mars, and beyond", manrating Delta IV Heavy was a central part of the plan-- it was to be the booster for the CEV, which later became known as "Orion".

Problem was, Delta IV Heavy wasn't the shuttle... the problems were more political than anything. D-IV-H didn't keep the shuttle folks employed and the money flowing into the correct political districts, plain and simple... too many "space state" contractors were going to lose BIGTIME if the EELV based spiral development plan went ahead... and we couldn't have that... hence they pressured Bush to get rid of O'keefe and Steidle and replace them with Mike Griffin, who never met a monster rocket he didn't like... and who would ride the "shuttle derived" train just like Congress and the shuttle contractors wanted... right up until it went over a cliff...

NASA studies and ESAS found "problems" with D-IV-H like "black zones", points in which the trajectory made escape via a LES tower "impossible"... of course, they were using a stacked deck-- EELV trajectories that were modeled to maximize UNMANNED CARGO launches, NOT safety for MANNED launches... the EELV's fly "highly lofted" trajectories that ascend quickly and then turn horizontal to pick up speed to reach orbit, to maximize cargo capability to orbit. For manned trajectories, one would fly a flatter, gentler trajectory to minimize gee forces and make escape easier if the rocket malfunctioned, but which would also reduce payload capability-- which D-IVH had to spare anyway... So it wasn't a hard problem to solve, but the PTB didn't WANT it solved, and therefore claimed it ruled out D-IVH for human launches (despite it being the preferred launcher for the Orbital Space Plane, which preceded the CEV before the Columbia disaster).

The decision was taken quite early to consciously make Orion "too big" to fit on Delta IV Heavy... that's why ORIGINALLY the Orion was to be 5.5 meters in diameter. This was back when CEV was to have a methane SPS engine and all sorts of other things like that for Mars missions using ISRU fuels (methane made on Mars from hydrogen brought from Earth, or electrolyzed from Martian water). Of course it was quickly found that the 5.5 meter Orion (CEV) was too big to be lifted by Ares I as well, so it was quickly downsized to 5 meters, where it stands today.

The subject of manrating D-IVH has come up several times, and the main problems are 1) the NASA manrating standards require a 1.4 factor of safety-- this means every part must be designed to fail at NO LESS than 140% of the design load... and not ever part of D-IVH is designed this way-- quite a bit is designed to a more standard 120% of rated load standard... and beefing up the parts would cut into performance and cost a lot of money for redesign/ recertification... according to NASA it would cost MORE to "modify" and manrate D-IVH than it was supposed to cost to design, develop, test, and evaluate an ENTIRELY FRIGGIN NEW ROCKET, Ares I... course we ALL know how THAT turned out! We also know how accurate NASA cost estimates are...

The second factor is, the RS-68 engines... they weren't designed with manrating in mind-- they were designed as cheap, throwaway CARGO ROCKET engines... and again, the "redesign" of them for a crewed vehicle was deemed "too expensive". RS-68 is actually based on the Space Transportation Main Engine, or STME, which was a proposed engine derived from the shuttle SSME, to be an uprated, cheaper, expendable version of the SSME... a first stage engine burning hydrogen and oxygen to power such rockets as the proposed but never approved National Launch System and Advanced Launch System. Some versions of "Shuttle-C" type vehicles also proposed using the STME. Of course with none of these plans ever approved or funded for development, STME basically went on the shelf as one of those neat "what if" engines on "what if" boosters that I end up summarizing over in the scale section for interested readers or future/fantasy scale builders... until, that is, the EELV competition came along to replace Titan IV, which cost as much per flight as the shuttle (which was entirely TOO MUCH), with something cheaper. The plans for STME were dusted off and revamped and what emerged was the RS-68.

Unfortunately, due to RS-68's pedigree as a cheap transportation engine, it was never designed with expensive manrating modifications in mind-- purely costs... it doesn't have the level of instrumentation and "mission assurance" hardware necessary for manrating as-is, and again, NASA determined that it would be "too expensive" to modify RS-68 and install the necessary "health monitoring" systems to enable an abort if necessary... this wasn't considered a problem on the Ares V because ORIGINALLY Ares V was to launch UNMANNED-- CARGO ONLY. Crew were only supposed to ride on "the safest rocket ever built", that being Ares I... (yeah, right, but I digress). Of course, as Ares I performance flagged and Orion still remained too heavy, and more and more of the mission mass was switched over to Ares V, eventually the plans started to change... Ares I wasn't even capable of lifting a fully-fueled lunar-capable Orion-- in fact, it burned out suborbitally-- and not just a little suborbitally, requiring a circularization burn like shuttle-- we're talking "burn the SPS service module engine for SIX MINUTES to reach orbit" kind of 'suborbitally'... of course this would SO much fuel that the SPS tanks wouldn't have enough propellant left to perform a lunar mission! SO, the plan that was flirted with was "Ares IV"-- basically slapping an Ares I upper stage on the Ares V, with Orion atop it, and launching the lunar capable Orion, along with more of the mission mass (cargo) on the Ares IV, to meet up with an Ares V-launched Altair/EDS stage in orbit, ready to go to the moon... I don't think it ever became "official", but it floated around for a good, long while... of course, the core of Ares V, which was also the first stage core of Ares IV, was powered by a cluster of RS-68's, and how they planned to deal with the "manrating issues" of the RS-68 cluster was something "to be determined" later... (TBD). Not that I ever read anything on how it was, or proposed to be, other than doing an extensive redesign of RS-68 to make it "manratable"...

Of course, not TOO long after that, Ares V started having problems-- the RS-68's, which are designed as ablatively-cooled engines, and not regeneratively cooled engines that circulate propellant through the nozzle and combustion chamber walls to cool them down and prevent them from melting, wasn't designed to be operated under a 33 foot diameter core vehicle in large clusters of 5 or 6 engines in close proximity, flanked by a pair of volcanically burning SRB's, with thier extremely hot and particle-dense exhaust plumes... The huge core would have an enormous base plume recirculation zone (much like Saturn V, which had SO much exhaust plume recirculation that flames licked some 70 feet up the sides of the rocket during parts of the flight, once it had gone supersonic, and the shock wave from the interstages/transitions created a low pressure zone around the sides of the first stage, which "sucked" the exhaust flames up alongside the rocket half the length of the first stage! (readily visible in some Saturn V launch videos). Besides the enormous vortex in it's 33 foot wide base wake, which would suck hot flames back up in/around the RS-68 engines, the SRB's created intensively radiant-heat exhaust plumes, since they're full of white-hot droplets and particles of alumina slag from the solid propellant... the RS-68's rely on radiative cooling of their nozzles as well as the ablative cooling of the inner layers burning and charring away while the engine is operating... and basically the SRB's plume radiation was going to throw more heat onto the nozzles than they could radiate away of their own internal heat. This, coupled with the exhaust gas plume impingement and base recirculation would cause the RS-68 nozzles to melt in flight before the first stage burned out...

Hence the switch back from the 'cheap' RS-68 to the "expensive" SSME... (RS-25). The SSME, being regeneratively cooled, could handle the exhaust plume impingement and thermal radiation environment next to the SRB's, and the base recirculation heating... and it was *miraculously* found that actually the "cheap" RS-68 wasn't that much cheaper than SSME anyway-- in fact, in "bulk buys" at higher production rates, the two engines were supposed to be broadly "comparable" in price... (ya right). Of course, SSME is already manrated, and thus eliminated the problem... but all this happened basically right before Constellation was canceled....

Now, it's a shame that D-IV can't use the SSME. The RS-68 is a powerful engine-- around 750,000 lbs of thrust, versus around 500,000 for the SSME, BUT, the SSME beats it ALL TO PIECES on ISP... the RS-68 is a thirty buggar, with a LOW ISP, compared with the highly efficient fuel-sipping SSME. Course, most of that is due to the SSME's more complex (more expensive) combined cycle engine which is much more complex and hard to tame, versus the RS-68's simpler gas-generator design... But a PAIR of SSME's on a Delta IV would be a BIG improvement in thrust AND performance, for the same propellant load... but it would require too many changes to the D-IV to justify it... the thrust structure being chief among them, as well as many others...

SO, can Delta IV-Heavy be manrated... depends on who you ask... the EELV proponents who've ALWAYS stuck to their position that the EELV's can be uprated and modified to do whatever task is necessary to perform the "moon, Mars, and beyond" mission (or whatever you think the mission is/should be/will be/might be/hopefully will be now that the VSE is canceled along with Constellation) say that it IS capable of being manrated, and for FAR less money than NASA has spent on things like the five-segment SRB...

Those who claim that only a "shuttle derived" heavy lift vehicle can meet NASA's needs say no, D-IVH can't be manrated without spending as much money to do that as it would cost to build their preferred HLV, or a big chunk of it... and it would be money poorly spent, because D-IVH is NOT an HLV as they define it (Saturn V-ish). Therefore it would be a foolish waste of money, time, and resources to manrate D-IVH or complete Atlas V Heavy, which using the already manrated RD-180 engines from Russia, would be far easier to manrate, or doing something like an Atlas V Phase II booster rocket, putting a pair of RD-180's on a Delta-IV size core designed for liquid oxygen and kerosene propellants for those engines rather than the liquid hydrogen/liquid oxygen burned by the RS-68...

In the end, it all comes down to who's ox is getting gored... it's not a technical decision, but a political one... in fact, the EELV companies were told by Griffin to "shut up" about EELV solutions or risk getting further NASA contracts... so there's your answer...

Later! OL JR :)
 
Great Saturn V... the S-IC roll patterns are incorrect, but it is a nice build. Now, if you painted an off-white over those upper ends of the lower S-IC roll patterns, it would look exactly like AS-501 (of coure you'd have to remove the LEM, but who cares about that). ;)
 
It's my understanding that the Sat-V holds the record of THE most complex, largest and most powerful rocket ever built. This is why I've been following closely the development of the new SLS. This is one of the best videos of the new system, it's supposed to be bigger, more complex, and more powerful than the Sat-V.

[YOUTUBE]X50OOzz0ufk[/YOUTUBE]

I live just three hours from KSC, the first time I was there the Sat-V was laid out, out side, when I was there three years ago it's all indoors now, and walking the floor from end to end, seeing each stage, and especially the joining ring between the first and second stage, where all the electronics are mounted. What was really the trip was seeing the components, compared to technology today they all looked prehistoric. And whats really crazy is our modern day cell phones have 100 times more computation and data processing then the whole Sat-V.

Any way, not intending to get so far from the thread topic, I check out the details on other peoples builds also, however if I would have found the rocket mentioned in the beginning I would have chalked it up to a young beginner build. If some guy in his twenties or thirties would have walked up and said, " hey, that's my rocket" then I might question his motivation and build skills.

Because I don't read all of OLJR posts, (I just don't have the time)sorry if this was already posted. The most complex vehicle launched was the Space Shuttle. I believe he stated all the other info.
 
Cool stuff, and not to dismiss it all, but the thread's just a little hijacked.

You build and finish rockets to your level of satisfaction. My fun had almost always been in the building rather than the finishing. More than 80% of my rockets never got painted, up through my teens. Now decades later, I tend to finish my rockets. The building is fun, and stopping after building got me flying sooner. I finish in part for my kids, I want to show them what can be done with finishing, though they are like I used to be: build it just to the point where it can fly! I appreciate their enthusiasm. They appreciate my finished product. And the more I finish, the better my skills at finishing.
 
Cool stuff, and not to dismiss it all, but the thread's just a little hijacked.

You build and finish rockets to your level of satisfaction. My fun had almost always been in the building rather than the finishing. More than 80% of my rockets never got painted, up through my teens. Now decades later, I tend to finish my rockets. The building is fun, and stopping after building got me flying sooner. I finish in part for my kids, I want to show them what can be done with finishing, though they are like I used to be: build it just to the point where it can fly! I appreciate their enthusiasm. They appreciate my finished product. And the more I finish, the better my skills at finishing.

Quite true on both counts-- thanks for dragging us back on topic! :)

You're also quite correct that for younger flyers, they are usually more interested in the flying part and less so on the construction part, and finishing is usually minimal or nonexistent since it isn't NECESSARY to make the rocket launchable...

As we get older, usually our desire to "do a good job" or improve our skills or the appearance of our finished product usually kicks in (somewhat to varying degrees) and we tend to work on finishing a little more than we did when we were kids...

Generally speaking, of course...

later! OL JR :)
 
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