Am I a build snob?

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I like my rockets to look good once. Then I launch them and screw it... the scars of battle are just that.

I find myself dreading the finishing process. So consider me weird. Not hard to imagine ... aye? :wink:

I like them to look good once. I like people to say, "That's a sharp looking rocket!" But I do NOT like to process of getting to a sharp model. My paint jobs always have either A) Orange Peel/Stippling or B) Runs. :rant: :rant: Never do I simply get a nice smooth gloss paint job. I don't like sanding, I don't like filling, but I do it because I like the end result.

So in this case, I do things in the hobby I don't enjoy simply to get a result I do enjoy. Make sense? If I flew a rocket unfinished* I'd feel like "It is not finished."

OTOH I know people who ONLY like launching. The act of building is torturous. Finishing is worse! All they want to get to is the burning of BP or AP. The building is a means to an end. Me? Hard to say... I spend so many relaxing hours building compared to launching, I have to enjoy the building process or there would be no point. And I do love the mechanical part of building. I do like launching... but its a more nerve racking rather than relaxing experience. There is nothing like seeing that chute deploy or that glider glide...

YMMV.
Jeff

* I do fly unfinished rockets when the goal is weight savings. Like B/Gs and R/Gs or almost any contest type model.

Ah, this post gets to the meat of it. There are different types of rocketeers.

You have your craftsman types that need to build the best rocket looking that they can. This may be because they have to challenge themselve or because they want others to acknowledge their skill or because Garth Brooks will die if they don't get it just perfect.

You have your techie types that don't necessarily have to have a great looking rocket but they are motivated by higher, faster, more complicated. They get off on solving technical problems, getting that three stage HPR to work flawlessly, track it thoughout the flight with full telemetry and then track it to its final location using GPS, RDF and satellite location.

You have your dedicated contest fliers hell bent on accumulating as many contest points in a year as their wallets and time will allow. This also includes the subgroup of record accumulators. Some of these folks are overly competitive, others crossover with the techie type, solving problems to get that record.

You have your "it's all about the comradery" types. These folks are in it primarily to hang out with the group. They might fall into one of the other categories but being with other people is the prime objective. This might be the fella in the club that shows up at the launch with no rockets but is always willing, ready and able to help out with range duties or maybe he brings all of his rockets but only launches once and spends the rest of the day chatting with the other flyers.

Then there are the pure pyros, for them it's all about the flame, the smoke and the roar of the motor. The rocket is simply a vehicle for the motor which is most important aspect of rocketry for them. Really though the motor is just a vehicle for the smoke and flame.

Of course there are the armchair rocketeers, I fall into this group. I hang out at the forums but I post mostly in the nonrocketry subforums. I build rockets but seldom post build threads, documenting a build is hard. I post helpful suggestions after the fact, "your rocket crashed because...". I show up at club launches but only if I don't have other things going on. Mostly though I wax fondly on the good old days and point out how the young rocketeers have it easy compared to back when, "we didn't have no rocsim back when".

Before anyone gets offended by this post please understand that it is done mostly tongue in cheek. It takes all kinds to make up a hobby, a communty, a world... We all get different things from this craziness called rocketry and we all contribute in our own way. That crappy looking Baby Bertha sitting on that fellas table might be a real source of pride for him.

Once I was a hot shot rocket stud (at least in my own mind) and could build some great looking birds. These days I find myself getting older, the arthritis in my hands limit my abilities. The pain in my back, legs and ankles limit my mobility. Any rocket I finish is a victory for me, any rocket that I launch is a victory for me, any launch that I show up to is a victory for me. My rockets aren't as pretty as they used to be but it still brings me joy everytime I can push that button. After all, it was the whooosh pop that got most of us into this hobby, in the end it is still the whoosh pop that keeps us truckin on.
 
Turning your nose up at someone else's work doesn't make you a "build snob", it just means you're a snob. Unless you're judging a competition, there's no reason to be critical of anyone's work.

As was clearly stated in the post, I don't judge the build quality of others, at least out loud. Don't need to, doesn't get me anywhere. But when someone excels we should admit it and admire it, which is what I always do. I refuse to use the false equivelency of "that's just as good as this because he feels something good about it and that is all that matters". If knowing the difference between excellence and mediocrity makes me a snob then I guess I don't understand the definition of snob.
 
As was clearly stated in the post, I don't judge the build quality of others, at least out loud. Don't need to, doesn't get me anywhere. But when someone excels we should admit it and admire it, which is what I always do. I refuse to use the false equivelency of "that's just as good as this because he feels something good about it and that is all that matters". If knowing the difference between excellence and mediocrity makes me a snob then I guess I don't understand the definition of snob.

+1 agree completely! OL JR :)
 
As was clearly stated in the post, I don't judge the build quality of others, at least out loud. Don't need to, doesn't get me anywhere. But when someone excels we should admit it and admire it, which is what I always do. I refuse to use the false equivelency of "that's just as good as this because he feels something good about it and that is all that matters". If knowing the difference between excellence and mediocrity makes me a snob then I guess I don't understand the definition of snob.

I'm unsure why you singled me out, but whatever. It's funny, because looking back at your post there was a specific detail that kind of irritated me - you reference a rockets quality being a good judge of a persons character. This is not at all accurate - there is a fellow in our club who's got to be somewhere in his thirties (not sure exactly), and is mentally disabled. All of his rockets look like they've been built by an impatient twelve year old, but he has wonderful character - how do you judge that? I think you're clear on the definition, but in denial of the affliction.
 
+1 agree completely! OL JR :)

this is very similar to the everyone gets a trophy because they participated and everyone is a winner. i like it when everyone tries their best and rises to the highest level of their ability but that in no way means they are all winners or #1. i wish i had the skill set that i see here every day, i don't have it and i know it. my rockets are ugly, glue everywhere, but built to my level as of today. they are built to be safe and sound. they will look better with time. we all compete regardless of if you want to admit it, we also like praise. compliments should be given and accepted regularly but so should criticism in a positive way. every member that has posted on this thread above has helped, taught or counseled my building and knowledge growth in rocketry in one form or another. i'm glad all of you continue to help the little people:) (i mean me)
 
I build pretty rockets that take hours of work and I also sloppy slapped together ones. The joy I get from deciding to scratch build a rocket on a sunday afternoon with some adult beverages is amazing. I get such a thrill out of it. I have a general idea of what I want to do and just see where it goes. Been some hard learned lessons, but the rush feels good. Last Sundays just for the heck of it build is getting the uber detail treatment, but one from 3 weeks ago has horrible fillets. meh...

It seems the amount of quality attention to perfection depends on how I feel that day, the project in front of me, and how awesome the kit is or if it is a scratch. I just like going along for the ride. I am still on a Big Daddy kick and I love the one I built in under an hour. The fin placement is uneven, the fins have gouges, but the fillets are nice :) Even put some goofy slightly thick stickers on it.




I just love building rockets and am proud of each one of my babies..
 
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The original post stands on its own. Why can't I silent judge a rocket? I may be ADMIRING it! I maybe think its a huge POS. I see no harm in judging the work of others internally. OTOH blurting out an opinion may not be required or desired. Don't be a D-bag. And don't be a D-bag here and read into words that were not written. People being honest here do not then deserve your ire for being honest.

I certainly don't think how you build is a measure of your character. It probably IS a measure of your personality type. Why should that be a surprise? And even then, it's not 100% reliable. As other have said... low part count = low emotional investment... high part count = high. Not for me, but for some.

But overall don't start ragging on people for being honest and posting an honest opinion here.
 
this is very similar to the everyone gets a trophy because they participated and everyone is a winner. i like it when everyone tries their best and rises to the highest level of their ability but that in no way means they are all winners or #1. i wish i had the skill set that i see here every day, i don't have it and i know it. my rockets are ugly, glue everywhere, but built to my level as of today. they are built to be safe and sound. they will look better with time. we all compete regardless of if you want to admit it, we also like praise. compliments should be given and accepted regularly but so should criticism in a positive way. every member that has posted on this thread above has helped, taught or counseled my building and knowledge growth in rocketry in one form or another. i'm glad all of you continue to help the little people:) (i mean me)

Not the same thing at all.

The 'Trophies for everyone' issue is in regards to actual competitions, typically things like sports, academics, etc. In these types of things, stratification (and recognition of same) is important and part of the fabric of the event.

A hobby (especially this hobby) does not necessarily have that built into it.

Here are the main points people seem to have issue with:

A) Fit and finish of a rocket is an indication of a person's character. This is the same kind of generalization as judging a person's intelligence based on what they do for a living - crass at best.

B) We are all in competition with each other. Maybe YOU are in competition with everyone else...I personally tend to compete very little with anyone. I have had enough competition forced on me during my life...I don't go out of my way to find some.

Is there differences in fit and finishes between rockets? Duh, of course there is. Should we recognize those who are exceptional at it? Sure. Should we help those who may be lacking at it? If they ask. It does not mean you are a better/lesser person than someone else based on the respective finishes of your rockets. Again, for most folks, fit and finish of a rocket is one small facet of their life...and judging someone based on it is very narrow minded.

If that's how you judge your standing as a human being...

FC
 
Garth Brooks will die if we don't get it perfect? You've got to be kidding! If I knew that's all it takes, Id'a never picked up a ruler. I will never paint a rocket again, and I'm throwing out all my sandpaper, too. Just kidding, but what a thought? What would it take to get rid of Michael Jackson? Oh yeah, we did that already...
But seriously, do we even really need to judge others? If it flies once, and afterwards can be made to fly again (without starting over), it is a success. People have many varied reasons for building the way they do, as mentioned in many of the previous posts. I really like the one that said something to the effect of "it doesn't hurt as bad when it crashes". Many times I have wished I built em with that in mind. I don't, though, I certainly can appreciate those who do.
That being said, I also cannot stomach "participation awards". Everyone is a winner if they participate. This is not meant for rocketry, but in other contests of whatever type. If winning is not important, why keep score? We need to keep in mind that winning takes extra effort and or skills; awarding mediocrity (spelling?) does nothing but to drag a society down to the lowest common denominator. Enough rant, time for an adult beverage and bedtime.
 
So, here's two of my rockets -



It's not well built, poorly painted. It has a hand-rolled body tube and a nosecone turned on a lathe. I didn't use Rocksim or Open rocket - I just made it look like "a rocket".

And another -



This (in my opinion) is well built and painted. Utilized commercially available body tube and nose cone. Laser cut fins, colour decals and fully simmed in Rocksim.

So, has my character changed or just my skill level?

Krusty
 
Not the same thing at all.

The 'Trophies for everyone' issue is in regards to actual competitions, typically things like sports, academics, etc. In these types of things, stratification (and recognition of same) is important and part of the fabric of the event.

A hobby (especially this hobby) does not necessarily have that built into it.

Here are the main points people seem to have issue with:

A) Fit and finish of a rocket is an indication of a person's character. This is the same kind of generalization as judging a person's intelligence based on what they do for a living - crass at best.

B) We are all in competition with each other. Maybe YOU are in competition with everyone else...I personally tend to compete very little with anyone. I have had enough competition forced on me during my life...I don't go out of my way to find some.

Is there differences in fit and finishes between rockets? Duh, of course there is. Should we recognize those who are exceptional at it? Sure. Should we help those who may be lacking at it? If they ask. It does not mean you are a better/lesser person than someone else based on the respective finishes of your rockets. Again, for most folks, fit and finish of a rocket is one small facet of their life...and judging someone based on it is very narrow minded.

If that's how you judge your standing as a human being...

FC
my reply had snips from prior quotes in it, i must have done something wrong as it didn't post that way. as i read your post and see how mine came out i am embarrassed at how it sounded. i did not mean it this way. i think everyone should be able to do what they like (concerning rockets) in a way that makes them happy.
 
So as to be clear I will give an analogy or three:
If you are a lawyer and you fly rockets and when I see those rockets and they are a travesty of building skill, I would never hire you as my lawyer. The lack of attention to detail is evident and will most likely be transferred to other areas of your life.
If you are a plumber and you fly rockets and I see the uneviable quality of your craftsmanship but I hire you anyway, I can only think that there would be an avalanche of stool in my near future. It would really be my fault.
If you are a physician and your rockets look like the exhaustive efforts of a dyslexic chimpanzee, I should assume that a diagnosis from you is as good as one from my pet beagle. And the treatment as effective as a sloppy doggie smooch.

What we do is a much better indicator of the content of our character than what we say. How we do it says a great deal about who we think we are and the value we place in our efforts If your rockets are ugly but you enjoy flying them I say more power to ya. I will in no way discourage you from doing so and I will always freely offer any advice and assitance to help you improve the appearance and flight characterstics of you rockets. I will allow the excellence of my craftsmanship and the straight smoke and billowing chutes be an indication of how I approach all the things in my life that matter. Then we can all be judged according to our merits.
 
Everybody calm down.....

I go to a number of launches every year. There are always new folks there.

Many will have a simple Estes E2X or plastic fin can variety rocket. Well good for them! Its a start.. and probably an easier start than most of us had in the old days! If they start off having fun, then they just might stick around longer and stay in the hobby. This is good for all of us rocketeers! This is especially true for us here in California. Without clubs and organized launches we are pretty much screwed!

Like the rest of you, I'm only human. I'll see a kid out there with a standard 3FNC kit built. No paint... crooked fins hot glued to the body tube... My first though is "eek!".. We all judge... it's in our nature... but I try not to show my first impression.. My brain will kick in and remember he's only a kid.. maybe 10 or 11 years old. You can see the excitement on his face! You have got to start somewhere. He's having fun just like I am launching rockets! That's what it all about. Even if the new kid at the launch is 30 or 40 years old....better late than never!

Jerome
 
rocket 019.jpgRockets Hannah;s GRAD! 002.jpgrockets 002.jpgrockets 007.jpgI do admire those who take the time and effort to build the best model they can.....Chris at Oddle Rockets is one of "those guys"....his stuff is just incredible! That being said, i draw the line at filling spirals on body tubes...if 2 coats of build up primer doesnt do it.....IM GOOD!:) Even though i consider my abilities at best average, i do get a compliment every now and again....to my surprise! ill post a coupla pics....feel free to critique...i dont mind a bit...!
 
I think all of us can appreciate a work of art when we see it, that's not in question. Can you see the beauty in a persons efforts even if the results are a bit less than a work of art, that IS the question.
 
this is very similar to the everyone gets a trophy because they participated and everyone is a winner. i like it when everyone tries their best and rises to the highest level of their ability but that in no way means they are all winners or #1. i wish i had the skill set that i see here every day, i don't have it and i know it. my rockets are ugly, glue everywhere, but built to my level as of today. they are built to be safe and sound. they will look better with time. we all compete regardless of if you want to admit it, we also like praise. compliments should be given and accepted regularly but so should criticism in a positive way. every member that has posted on this thread above has helped, taught or counseled my building and knowledge growth in rocketry in one form or another. i'm glad all of you continue to help the little people:) (i mean me)

Ummmkay... Not sure why you quoted ME there... I was agreeing with the comment that while I DO judge rockets according to the quality of the build and its appearance, and I DO appreciate and admire rockets that look terrific and people that take enough pride and effort into their builds to make an impressive rocket, I don't see the need to be "mean" to people who AREN'T going to take the time or trouble to do a good build, or who simply don't have the skillset to do it... I mean, if a kid comes up to me with a really crappy looking rocket, but it's pretty obvious that 1) they're a newb 2) they're a kid and don't have the dexterity, skills, or experience to do better 3) they're super-excited because it's their first rocket... so long as it's structurally sound, yeah, I'm gonna tell them they did a good job, MAYBE give a few GENTLE pointers on how they could do the next one better... but find SOMETHING they did worth complimenting... that's just being decent...

Now, same situation, but with a 40-something guy who's just basically a motor firebug/thrill junky who comes up with a rocket that looks like it was run over by a Jeep a time or two and pasted back together with hot glue... not so much... I wouldn't be a "D-bag" as someone else said, BUT, sorry, I'm NOT impressed... no matter HOW big a motor they manage to shove into the thing...

Guess I'm just funny that way...

I've judged the 4-H fair rocket competition before, and basically for black powder rockets, I judge it SOLELY based on the build quality... IE craftsmanship. The kids CAN fly their rocket (weather permitting) on a "flying day" at the fair, but that is NOT part of the judging criteria... by that time all the placements have been given and the state-fair bound rockets are usually strongly advised NOT to fly (for fear of a crash destroying their entry). In the past I've seen the judging be more according to what the judge thought was a "neat kit" and rewarding the kid based more on choosing something that the JUDGE finds to be a cool or neat kit, no matter how well or poorly it was put together, rather than judging the SKILLS required to complete the kit properly and do a good job (the difficulty of the kit) or the actual execution (how well they did on putting the kit together and finishing it). I've seen a grand champion ribbon on a poorly built/finished "level 2" kit while a better finished level 4 or 5 kit that didn't catch the judge's fancy end up placing somewhere in the middle or even nearer the bottom. IMHO that is TOTALLY the wrong signal to send... I conducted a seminar for any of the kids that wanted to attend last summer while I was in Indiana, a couple weeks before the fair, and then judged the rockets at the fair afterwards... Without "flight points" to judge by, basically the judging comes down to a craftsmanship event... and you betcha I discount for unfinished fugly slab balsa fuzzy fins with a quick coat of Krylon versus properly papered or filled and sanded fins primed and painted properly... among many other things... and once I have it down to the final ranking, if I have any "ties" for a particular place, then yeah I'll go to some pretty fine points to decide which one edges the other one out... a crooked decal or something can make all the difference. I DO give more credit for someone willing to take on a more complicated kit (say a Saturn V or an Interceptor) versus someone just doing a straightforward 3FNC rocket, BUT I'm NOT going to judge based on strictly "that's a cooler looking rocket than the other one"... and NOT judge by "I like scale rockets more than sci-fi designs or 3FNC designs..." Nor will I give enough MORE credit to taking on a more difficult build that a mediocre "complex" build can beat out an extremely well-done "less difficult" type rocket... sometimes it's REALLY close...

I judged the water rockets too... those ARE MUCH MORE of a "whimsical" or "innovative" design type competition... IOW, more about what strikes you as "cool-looking" rather than a pure craftsmanship... water rockets are largely of their own design, and entirely of their own decoration choices of motifs... BUT, it STILL has to be a safe, realistically stable water rocket design-- just total goofball stuff or even some really "cool" looking stuff that has NO chance of flying correctly or safely, that's just not going to cut it... One kid brought in a water rocket that Dad decided to build a nosecone for out of an old dryer vent (sheet metal) rolled into a cone and pop-riveted together, and duct-taped to the top of the pop bottle... NO WAY that was going past me (even though he pointed out, correctly, that the rules don't specifically prohibit such... but it DOES say "fly safely" in there, and obviously a pointy steel cone with a finned pop bottle on the back falling out of the sky from 50-90 feet in altitude is NOT going to "fly safely" with anybody within a couple hundred feet of the launching pad (and it has to be stomped to release the rocket). I felt bad because it was REALLY well constructed otherwise and painted quite nicely, and I'd have loved to score it higher, but simply COULDN'T because it didn't follow the intent of the construction and flight rules... I allowed it to enter, but it ended up in last or next to last place because of the material choice... Similarly, some kids made some delta-wing "fighter jets" type designs, which due to fin placement obviously wouldn't have been stable... and these are SUPPOSED to be designed to fly stably generally in a straight up direction when launched... They were creative and interesting, and I liked them, but again, this was a WATER ROCKET competition, and not really designed in line with the rules, so the best they did was the middle of the field... strictly on innovativeness and execution of the build alone... but other water rockets of near-equal interest and equivalent or superior finish, that more closely followed the intent of the rules of the competition, simply had to score higher...

The kids do it to have fun... and you DON'T want to "squash" that... I'm DEFINITELY NOT in the "everybody turned something in is a winner-- they're all equal" category... in fact that attitude is a BIG pet peeve of mine-- I believe in rewarding superior work with superior recognition... but at the same time, I don't think it's necessary or prudent, and it's certainly not polite or kind, to trounce someone for something that "isn't as good as someone else's..." If you look hard enough, you can usually find SOMETHING to compliment on ANY build, no matter HOW "botched" it might be... even if it's just the color choice... LOL:)

I think the phrase "don't be a D-bag" sums it up extremely well...

Later! OL JR :)
 
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How do I measure myself against other builders? By height.

"You know, you really should fly with Dr. Beeper and myself... after all, he's been club champion three years running, and (with false modesty) I'm no... slouch... myself!"

Hahaha... great flick...

Later! OL JR :)
 
Just posting this as some humor and not really related to this thread, but somehow relevant.

[video=youtube;0la5DBtOVNI]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0la5DBtOVNI[/video]

I sing that in my head a lot. Also the duck song and the cat flushing the toilet one.
 
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I have just read this thread and it's been very interesting. I would say in general its followed predictable lines given what people generally post. To me if you put your rocket in a contest its gonna be judged and luke along with others have suggested some sensible criteria. If one is just flying for fun then safety first finish whatever. I judge personal character by observing and interacting with a person. Rocket finish would not be a huge part but that's just me. One of the neater things about getting older is the circle of people whose opinions impact me in a significant way has shrunk to my family and a very few friends. If you were to like my rockets finish that's nice but if you think turning your nose up at it will bother me then you are very very mistaken. As a matter of fact overt smugness or a superior attitude is a much better measure of character then how I finish my rocket. What a person thinks is their business but how they treat others is key.
 
I have just read this thread and it's been very interesting. I would say in general its followed predictable lines given what people generally post. To me if you put your rocket in a contest its gonna be judged and luke along with others have suggested some sensible criteria. If one is just flying for fun then safety first finish whatever. I judge personal character by observing and interacting with a person. Rocket finish would not be a huge part but that's just me. One of the neater things about getting older is the circle of people whose opinions impact me in a significant way has shrunk to my family and a very few friends. If you were to like my rockets finish that's nice but if you think turning your nose up at it will bother me then you are very very mistaken. As a matter of fact overt smugness or a superior attitude is a much better measure of character then how I finish my rocket. What a person thinks is their business but how they treat others is key.

Well said!! After all, in the end its just a hobby...and i view us as grown people playing with toys....when i drop dead from this life, i doubt ill ever be remembered much for the models i built, but i will be remembered as the kind of person i was in this life to my family and REAL friends, and to me thats all that counts!
 
Well said!! After all, in the end its just a hobby...and i view us as grown people playing with toys....when i drop dead from this life, i doubt ill ever be remembered much for the models i built, but i will be remembered as the kind of person i was in this life to my family and REAL friends, and to me thats all that counts!

Agreed, rocketry is something I do, it's not who I am.
 
no, not a snob, you just have a high attention to detal. I mean, look at your vostok, you know what you're doing and have to have a keen eye for detail especially to have it turn out as nice as it did.
 
<snip> After all, it was the whooosh pop that got most of us into this hobby, in the end it is still the whoosh pop that keeps us truckin on.

To me, that pretty much sums it up. It reminds me of watching an awe-struck kid follow a big Redline up, or of a Cub Scout watching in hand-clasped anticipation of his first rocket launch, or of an L3 candidate purposely (sometimes grimly) going through a pre-flight. Like the OP, I've looked at a few models and wondered why the builder did what he/she did, but I forget all about it when I see them walking back with an ear-to-ear grin, proudly holding their own little rocket success.

My personal way from whoosh to pop is technique; I have all kinds of baffles and pistons and TTW fins and glassed tubes and other things in my birds. All modrocs. (I'm just now building my first comp motor bird.) Their finish is poor, in general. But I think I feel the same amount of elation and satisfaction, for the same basic reason, as do other rocketeers with other priorities when the flights are successful. Its not how you get from whoosh to pop, its why.

Gary
 
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