Semroc Saturn 1b Fuel Tube Fairing Shroud

I'm looking for tips/help/suggestion/cures for insanity.

I already messed one up, tossed it, and ordered a new set of wraps from Semroc. And, oh, gee, darn, another kit happend to "fall into my cart" while checking out. But, that kit just gives me a diversion, rather than a solution.

I'm looking for pointers on this accursed shroud -- how to cut it out, form it, glue it on, etc. I've been reading what I can find, and I need the Bumbling Fingers Guide To Cursed Wraps.

-Kevin

Argh. That damn thing. One of the reasons I put my Estes S1B aside for THIRTY EIGHT YEARS was that shroud.

I got a new fairing from Semroc and painstakingly glued it in place. Only to find out that the panels were not supposed to be "curved in" but rather than "angled in," meaning the there is a gap between the fin extension root edges and the fairings.

In their version of the S1b, there are balsa triangles inserted between the tanks to keep that from happening.

I'm thinking of filling in the gaps with tissue rather than having to redo the fairing again.

Like the damn escape tower wasn't difficult enough to build.

StefanJ said:

Like the damn escape tower wasn't difficult enough to build.

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Yeah, we're not talking about that. And I have an "out" on that, if need be -- there's always this little gem

-Kevin

troj said:

I'm looking for tips/help/suggestion/cures for insanity.

I already messed one up, tossed it, and ordered a new set of wraps from Semroc. And, oh, gee, darn, another kit happend to "fall into my cart" while checking out. But, that kit just gives me a diversion, rather than a solution.

I'm looking for pointers on this accursed shroud -- how to cut it out, form it, glue it on, etc. I've been reading what I can find, and I need the Bumbling Fingers Guide To Cursed Wraps.

-Kevin

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OK! Been there and done that. My solution might not be exactly what you want to do but THIS LINK is one I started a while back and it it has other links that share some solutions. First and foremost, I hope you made copies of said shroud before you cut it. It will need to be reduced in size. As far as your "little gem" is concerned, if you don't have issues with the $9.01 shipping charge for a part that weighs about 1/2 oz, go for it. Building that tower was a PIA!

Gary Byrum said:

OK! Been there and done that. My solution might not be exactly what you want to do but THIS LINK is one I started a while back and it it has other links that share some solutions. First and foremost, I hope you made copies of said shroud before you cut it. It will need to be reduced in size.

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Yeah, I saw that thread. Unfortunately, it didn't provide me a tremendous amount of help. I may be missing something entirely, though.

As far as your "little gem" is concerned, if you don't have issues with the $9.01 shipping charge for a part that weighs about 1/2 oz, go for it. Building that tower was a PIA!

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I plan to try building one, first. If that doesn't work out, I'll order the one from Apogee. I already have one (attached to an Apogee Saturn V), so I know the quality and I don't mind paying for it.

The reality is shipping isn't cheap; between postage, the cost of the box, tape, packing materials, etc... Deb dealing with TRA HQ has been very enlightening, as to the realities of what it costs to ship things.

-Kevin

Roy Green gave a reduction size in another thread I could not find again but fortunately it's mentioned in this piece of a build thread I have not posted yet. It and the solution I resorted to along with a pic are included. I hope this helps a little.

The shroud is oversized by design. I made an executive decision after discussing the matter with my friend LW, and opted to install the shroud in 8 individual pieces. Since I didn’t like this flimsy paper, I swapped out all of it for the copies that I made. I probably should have taken Roy Green’s suggestion and made my copies at 99.2%. Might have been easier than my approach. I had to make some little balsa tabs that were mounted on top of the fuel tanks so I’d have somewhere to glue the ends to. In this picture, it’s obvious where those cuts were made. After drying, I used some thin CA on each cut area because the overlapping would have to be sanded at a later point. No biggie. I do have a better fit though.

Gary Byrum said:

The shroud is oversized by design. I made an executive decision after discussing the matter with my friend LW, and opted to install the shroud in 8 individual pieces. Since I didn’t like this flimsy paper, I swapped out all of it for the copies that I made. I probably should have taken Roy Green’s suggestion and made my copies at 99.2%. Might have been easier than my approach. I had to make some little balsa tabs that were mounted on top of the fuel tanks so I’d have somewhere to glue the ends to. In this picture, it’s obvious where those cuts were made. After drying, I used some thin CA on each cut area because the overlapping would have to be sanded at a later point. No biggie. I do have a better fit though.

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Perfect, thanks!

Firing up the scanner, now.

-Kevin

troj said:

Perfect, thanks!

Firing up the scanner, now.

-Kevin

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Cool! Let me know how that reduction number works for you. I may need to know that should I ever have to replace mine.

It definitely fits better! A bit of trimming still to do, but that's okay.

What I did was scan it in PhotoShop, reduce it to 99.2%, then reprinted it on regular paper. I cut out part of that, to test the fit, which told me that if it's not perfect, it's darned close.

I then fed one of my spare sheets of fairing (you buy all three sheets, for $3 total, from Semroc) and printed over the top of one. I've then cut that out, and will now do fiddly fitting.

-Kevin

Here's what the scaled & printed looks like

Most everything else fits well with this kit. Leo had issues with his command module shroud fitting but he got an over sized cone in his kit. I recommend printing duplicates of everything. You'll also have issues with the wraps for the small parts made from launch lug tubes. I opted to fabricate my own from balsa. They have more gluing surface and will look better than the ill wrapped lugs. Just do the math.

Phew. That step is done. There's some filling and sanding in my future, but then, there's an art to this stuff, and I'm not an artist....

-Kevin

troj said:

Phew. That step is done. There's some filling and sanding in my future, but then, there's an art to this stuff, and I'm not an artist....

-Kevin

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I'd like to see your end result.

I think there is a 1/100 scale one on Shapeways. I don't know for sure but maybe it could be scaled up.

Here is my response to a previous thread on this matter:

https://www.rocketryforum.com/showthread.php?21121-Semroc-Saturn-1B-build&p=190111#post190111

Too late for yours, but for future builds.

I've got some filling and sanding to do

troj said:

I've got some filling and sanding to do

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Is it committed/glued in place? If not, I have a tip to offer.

Have you thought of using 1/32 or 1/64 plywood. If it was cut into sections, 4 or 8, it could be glued on and filled at the same time.

Gary Byrum said:

Is it committed/glued in place? If not, I have a tip to offer.

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'tis glued. That said, I'd be interested in hearing, regardless.

-Kevin

troj said:

'tis glued. That said, I'd be interested in hearing, regardless.

-Kevin

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Since I opted to glue my shroud in sections, I took a round stick sander and customized the curves for a proper fit. I also trimmed around 1/16" off of each point so the shroud pieces would snug the fuel tubes better. But then again, I used the actual size shroud. It was one of the few areas of this build that toyed with my patience. And if you thought this part was a pain, wait till you get to that tower.

Brent said:

I think there is a 1/100 scale one on Shapeways. I don't know for sure but maybe it could be scaled up.

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That's probably mine. I haven't tested the print yet but can rescale it to suit

Gary Byrum said:

And if you thought this part was a pain, wait till you get to that tower.

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Do you know how the tower on this kit compares to the tower on the Estes Saturn V? 'Cause building the tower on the Sat V was a nightmare!!!!! (the end result looks pretty good, despite the fact that it's a little crooked). As a mater of fact, the fin/farings look like there going to put up a fuss as well, but I haven't gotten there quite yet.

rocketgeek101 said:

Do you know how the tower on this kit compares to the tower on the Estes Saturn V? 'Cause building the tower on the Sat V was a nightmare!!!!! (the end result looks pretty good, despite the fact that it's a little crooked). As a mater of fact, the fin/farings look like there going to put up a fuss as well, but I haven't gotten there quite yet.

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Yes. I have built both. The Estes Sat V tower is as frail as spaghetti noodles and the Semroc version is a regular PIA. The "second" time I made the Semroc tower I did some research and found a few great tips. One of them mentioned not sanding the dowels as thin as they should be. I found this quite helpful and seriously, who's gonna know and wtf anyway. They were easier to assemble and glue into place and looks way much better than my 1st attempt. Regarding the Estes tower, fins & fairings, I almost opted to buy the resin cast parts from Sirius but opted to teach myself how to resin cast those myself. The end results on those were a bit of an effort and cost me more in the long run, but now I know how to cast and I have the molds. The 1st pic is the 1'st and 2nd takes on the Semroc tower. The one on the left is the 1st attempt.

The other 2 pics are the resin cast tower and fin/faring.

I cheated and used an Apogee command module on mine used the rcs nozels too.
Just epoxy a loop of Kevlar in to the nose for an attachment point.

jazzviper1 said:

I cheated and used an Apogee command module on mine used the rcs nozels too.
Just epoxy a loop of Kevlar in to the nose for an attachment point.

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I was gonna do that too but the shipping cost was ridiculous for a 1/2 oz of parts, so I went for a second effort. I think this is why Semroc supplies you with 2 of the, "scaffolding rings"? (for lack of what they may actually be called). Because they prolly already know you may mess the 1st one up like so many people do.

rocketgeek101 said:

As a mater of fact, the fin/farings look like there going to put up a fuss as well, but I haven't gotten there quite yet.

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They are a fuss and a joke as well. After numerous attempts to strengthen these parts up with some "creative approaches", I decided to cast those as well. They turned out really well too. The reasoning is based on fragility. If you look at them wrong, they're gonna break. Chris Michielssen has a great blog on the entire build. A very worthy look-see. I just don't trust them to survive a landing. Build them, you'll see why.

troj said:

I plan to try building one, first. If that doesn't work out, I'll order the one from Apogee. I already have one (attached to an Apogee Saturn V), so I know the quality and I don't mind paying for it.

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While a bunch of work, building the tower from dowels really gives a nice sense of satisfaction, and I'd recommend giving it a go. Even the sanding part.

I intend to build the dowel-based escape towers for both my Saturn 1b and my Semroc Little Joe II. I'm building a spare set of struts, just-in-case.

I bought a whole bunch of 3" dowels from a craft store, and use a Dremel tool and a fold of sandpaper to get them down to size.

This is too funny..........

...guess what I finally decided to build last week :wink:

I`m just gluing the wraps on now with WeldBond white glue, slightly thinned with a few drops of water ,brushed on the body tube area.Works very well.

I was actually surprised ,as I thought this build was going to be a lot harder than it was :confused2: Of course ,that will change when it comes to painting !

I suppose I shall do the built up fins ,but will harden them some way.

Cheers

Paul T


PS- Oh yah......I wussed out and bought the Apogee tower :blush:

sodmeister said:

PS- Oh yah......I wussed out and bought the Apogee tower :blush:

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Heresy!