I find this discussion oddly interesting. Apogee has some great products, but I've only ordered from them once; when I purchased their Saturn 1b. Paying over MSRP is just not something that I'm generally willing to do. MSRP seems reasonable in some cases. More than that, and I balk. But I could see circumstances when I would consider it.
Things went downhill after my purchase when I filled out the survey, however. EssentiaLy, I stated in the survey that I would like to spend more of my $5k per year rocket budget at Apogee but the margins were making it difficult for me. I wasn't complaining, mind you, just stating that I would buy more if there were some incitives.
TVM personally responded to my survey with a message that I took to mean that I wasn't the type of customer he was marketing to anyway. I found the reply to be rather insulting, considering that I had taken the time to fill out the survey and wasn't asking for anything in return. It just left a bad taste in my mouth, and has probably prevented me from placing a couple of orders that I would have placed had he not responded to me at all.
I will probably order again from them at some point...they do have some unique offerings, loads of information, and good service. I just think it would behoove all vendors to remember that hobbyists are spending discretionary dollars because spending the money makes us feel good. If the vendor is going to do or say something that robs us of that little nirvana, then they need to understand that will likely reduce their sales. On the other hand, those that go out of their way to let us know we are valued customers will profit...even if they charge a reasonable premium for their products.
Cheers,
Michael
I've seen the same thing, and TVM is sometimes his own worst enemy in this regard... there IS such a thing as being TOO honest, or at least TOO VOCAL about it. He's published several articles in "Peak of Flight" to this effect, saying much the same thing. I mean, it's a free country, and it's his right to say what he wants, BUT, it seems foolish to me to do and say stuff that will hurt sales...
I chalk part of it up to TVM's self-described title as "Mr. Rocket" or "Dr. Rocket" or whatever... he's a very bright guy, no question about that-- he worked on Delta II rockets for a big aerospace company-- you don't get to do that without being smart... BUT...
"Math-brained" science-type smart guys are rarely well versed in what to say and how to say it to "make friends and influence people", unlike "language-brained" folks who are more socially skilled than technically skilled (usually, anyway, trying not to overgeneralize). That's why "rocket guys" are usually nerds and "socially awkward" so to speak... different skillsets and mindsets...
When I read stuff like this that TVM has written or said to people, it makes me cringe... because it's simply going to turn people off and hurt his sales... and I REALLY want TVM and all our other vendors to succeed-- the more vendors we have, the more competitive products we'll have, the more competition and diversity we'll have in products and services available to the rocketry community, the better off we ALL are...
I "get it"... TVM is focusing his business on "those who see value in his *superior* (open to interpretation, though it is good no doubt, but better/best is still in question IMHO) customer service" and "not wasting time on those who don't see the value in the additional cost for *his* level of customer service". I think that the last half of that sentence would simply remain better unsaid. Writing a letter to a customer or publishing a newsletter saying "you're not the kind of customer I'm looking for" just seems crass and insulting, and ultimately pointless... how many customers and how many dollars has he lost because of this attitude, and being so BRAZEN about it?? I mean, sure, anybody dealing with the public has certain times when they cringe at seeing "those people" (whomever they might be, of whatever type or kind, that you KNOW you're going to have a hard time dealing with for whatever reason and would just as soon see go somewhere else rather than have to be bothered by them) coming in the door to buy something... I've experienced the same thing myself when I was running my custom hay baling business, and yeah, there were some folks who had a LOUSY reputation of not paying for baling after the job was done that I simply *REFUSED* to bale for and let them go pound sand... I didn't see the point in even bothering to work for them and taking the chance on not getting paid... as is MY right... but I didn't ADVERTISE that fact to them or anybody else... I simply begged off working for them as being "too busy" right now or whatever and simply never called them back...
I had guys try to chew me down on price, but I already had a price point lower than my competitors and inline with MY costs and a reasonable profit... if they didn't like that, they were perfectly free to go somewhere else and do something else... and I told them that-- and I had more than one come back a few days later hat in hand hiring me to do the job anyway once they found that out...
I just think that the first "rule" of good customer service is "don't needlessly p!ss off customers or potential customers"... think what you like, and run your business as you like, but don't *ever* tell a customer "you're not the kind of customer I'm looking for"... If you have legal money, you *SHOULD* be the kind of customer ANY business is looking for! If you have a customer that makes irrational demands or claims things are damaged or bad or whatever trying to get freebies or discounts or favors or whatever, yeah, you do what makes sense to do, try to make it "right" without taking a bath on it, and if the customer is PO'd, OH WELL... there's always *some* people that you can NEVER make happy no matter WHAT you do! Fact of life! Just move on and if they order again, good, if not, OH WELL... no big loss...
But going around writing letters to customers and publishing articles stating you DON'T want *some peoples* business just seems very foolhardy to me... "leaving a bad taste in a person's mouth" in a public way DOES affect other customers or POTENTIAL customers, because it leaves them wondering "am *I* next in line for this sort of treatment??"...
Sort of like my experience when TVM wrote me regarding RS8 issues I was having "that's why you should have bought a Mac"... It was insulting and COMPLETELY unhelpful, and even if he WAS thinking it, it should have remained "unsaid".... that was a BIG reason why I saw NO value in spending MORE money with him to upgrade to RS9... I found myself thinking as I read his response, "NO, why didn't YOU tell me that your product is full of bugs and UNRELIABLE on a Windows-based PC, and therefore if you buy it, you're taking your chances..." See, that sword cuts BOTH WAYS...
Meh, it's a free country, and TVM is free to run off his mouth AND his customers or potential customers as he sees fit... BUT, there are VERY VERY FEW businesses that can survive and thrive catering to a 'select few' customers in an already terribly small niche market... and from what I've seen, basically unless you're ordering from him quite frequently and is one of his "best customers", TVM doesn't particularly care about you, and if you disagree with him you're "not the kind of customer he's looking for"... So be it...
I'll buy from Tim, but it's got to be something I can't get elsewhere at all, or can't get cheaper elsewhere... IMHO his "customer service" certainly is not the BEST in rocketry (which personally I'd say Semroc has them beat hands down) although it is good, certainly better than many and probably IMHO about 'on par' with most vendors in rocketry...
Let the people decide and vote with their dollars... Later! OL JR
