I Just Don't Get The TSA

I know all of you at some point have used a box cutter on one thing or another. Was this not the preferred blade used by the terrorist back on 9/11? The blades on an ordinary box cutter extends about 1 inch. TSA wants to allow knives 2.5" or less back on planes. :cyclops: I don't get it. In the wrong hands, a knife with a 2.5" blade can cause more damage to a person than with a 1" blade. That jugular vein is close enough for a 2.5" blade to reach. They supposedly killed the pilots with the box cutters. I can almost see the results of this poll with this crowd.

Knives no, but let me keep a corkscrew in my carry-on, please.

Well, they did confiscate nail clippers too. What? "Take this plane to Cuba or you get a manicure" WTF?? The whole thing with shoes bugs me too. I used to fly hundreds of miles a month back in the day, now I'd rather drive than hassle with all the frickin' rules. Back in the day my briefcase held steel drafting triangles, a lethal T-square, dressmaker's scissors for cutting up blueprints and all manner hijack equipment. Now they unroll your socks and taste the toothpaste. The terrorists won.

I say yes.

The whole theater of Security out on by the TSA is a poor joke. Armor the door of the cabin and arm the crew, that or interlock the seat belts so you can't get up w/o an attendant overseeing it.

Your jugular can be sliced open with a sharp credit card.
Kevlar shoe strings can also kill.
Most civilians never have had to think this way.
My point is You may as well Ban Flying.
It has become ridiculous. IMHO

They're not allowing box cutters -- just pocket knives, and the rules around those are pretty strict. No locking blades, no fixed blades, no contour grips. X-Acto knives, box cutters, etc are all strictly against the rules.

-Kevin

As a young 20's something working retail I saw a korean vet suffering pts and suicidal slice his own throat with a cutter.

TSA? It is a government program so that sums things up for me...

All Im going to say is...
Ive flown a bit since 911.
Back and forth to AZ ,SC and all the stops inbetween.
AFTER going thru security, Ive had at my despose in the airport shops, bathrooms,hallways,waiting rooms, ect,many items that could be used as a deadly weapon.
We all know what the word "Terrorist" means,so I wont go there.
However, do we throw caution to the wind so we can puff up our chests and say " AINT SKEERED".
The proplem here is,we have others making that choice for us.
Some are for it and others are not.
Simple but true,just the way it is.
I me-self believe we need some type,level of policing.
I cant see a Free for All ,No Rules way of life.
It would never work.

Oh YA, Last time I went to AZ,they pulled Sandy and I aside cuz they picked up rocket BP on my camera bag.
We didnt get the firehose treatment,but it wasnt the best gathering either.

Eric1 said:

Your jugular can be sliced open with a sharp credit card.
Kevlar shoe strings can also kill.
Most civilians never have had to think this way.
My point is You may as well Ban Flying.
It has become ridiculous. IMHO

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Hey! 1/4" kevlar makes EXCELLENT boot laces. I have a new pair of boots so the grommets are not cutting on my laces anymore.
-Ken

troj said:

They're not allowing box cutters -- just pocket knives, and the rules around those are pretty strict. No locking blades, no fixed blades, no contour grips. X-Acto knives, box cutters, etc are all strictly against the rules.

-Kevin

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Where I work, it's against company policy to use knives to open boxes because of the safety risk. Box cutters only!
-Ken

H_Rocket said:

I say yes.

The whole theater of Security out on by the TSA is a poor joke. Armor the door of the cabin and arm the crew, that or interlock the seat belts so you can't get up w/o an attendant overseeing it.

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Did you watch the movie Flight? Now I'm more worried about the crew than terrorists.

True story.

I had to fly with a friend from Salt Lake to San Jose on a short overnight trip once. This was just a few months after 9-11. My friend had flown very little in his life and was something of an innocent in the ways of the world. He was an artist who had shoulder bag that he kept his art supplies in - things like pens, markers, ink, sharpener, glues, etc. He had had this bag for a long time, so many little things were stuffed into various little pockets and corners. However, since this was just an overnight trip, he figured that this was just the right size to use as luggage so he emptied out all the art bits, and used it for clothes, toothbrush, etc. This would also allow him to have just a single carry-on and to avoid checking any luggage.

So. We are in line at security and dutifully removing all watches, jewelry, glasses, etc., and we had made sure we were not carrying any problem items (liquids, pocket knives, etc.) and all that. I sailed right through the checkpoint with no problem. When he followed behind me, the guard held him up for a moment and said he had to look in the bag. "No problem" I thought, this is just a random routine check. Well, the guard starts getting a bit more nervous and calls over his supervisor. He gets real worked up and they call in more backup. Everyone is getting agitated, and they are looking at my friend very susiciously. Did I mention my friend was from Colombia and kinda dark skinned with black facial hair?

I'm trying to ask "what seems to be the problem" and the security guys are all amped up and telling me to back off, and my friend is looking at me with a "I have no idea" expression.

So, what was it they found in his bag? Well, it just so happens that deep down in one bottom fold there were still some of his artist supplies that he missed when emptying the bag to convert it to luggage. And it just so happens that those supplies were box cutter blades. Fifteen of them. Yes, actual box cutter blades. Not just "a knife", a sharp edge, or some other form possible weapon, but the very thing that the 9-11 hijackers had used for their evil deed.

Oops.

You try to explain to four or five security guards, their supervisor, and a couple of armed National Guard guys that "really, these are just art supplies!"

In the end, they believed the story. It was so stupid and ridiculous, and my friend was so perplexed himself, that it was obvious to them that this was not an actual terrorist bent on distruction, but in reality a guy who did something REALLY stupid. Of course they confiscated the items in question, but they let us on the plane and we made our flight.

Fun times.

s6

You can carry on a pocket knife.....yet you still can't have a bottle of shampoo. Nice.

So far I see a better % of yeses in this poll. I have to question that. Let's say, for the moment, Joe Blow has his pocket knife with him and he gets angry or better yet, goes into some psychotic fit because he just had a premonition that the plane was gonna crash or because his shoe came untied. He whips out his 2.5" blade and starts cutting away at plain ole folks. People have been killed for less than that. But TSA sees no worries about our safety? It's my understanding they're having issues with what to do with all the confiscated items. If they were using their brains, they could find someone that would take them off their hands and sell them at a flea market or something. Simple.

Gary Byrum said:

So far I see a better % of yeses in this poll.

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It's 50/50.

paul.nortness said:

It's 50/50.

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It is now. It wasn't when I made my last post.

I'm on the fence on this one. From one point of veiw, we're going back to what started this whole thing to begin with. Then I ask myself -" why in the world would I carry a knike on an aircract to begin with"--AIN'T gonna be whitlin no wood there or working on my nails. Of course, if someone else pulls a knife on a stew or a passenger and I had a knife---That scenario goes real bad real fast for all concerned. In most cases the cockpit is secured so, loosing the aircraft is most likely out of the equation. I don't have a problem with it , but the timing/reasoning is suspect to me. I did'nt hear of a huge rebellion of pocket knife owners boycotting the airlines--that said, they did relax other rules too. This is not a singular event, but taken by itself, odd. Just my thoughts

They should hand every passenger a 15" bowie knife as they board the plane and tell them to keep an eye on the other passengers.

JPVegh said:

They should hand every passenger a 15" bowie knife as they board the plane and tell them to keep an eye on the other passengers.

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That would even the odds.

I want to carry my Gerber multi tool. Very useful back in the day.

Can't do it now.

Personally, the days of a dude with a small blade taking over an airliner are long past. No one seriously expecting to succeed is going to try with the knives they will be allowing...even if one or two passengers are hurt, the rest will be all over him like white on rice. The main reason box cutters worked is because everyone was expecting a hostage situation, not a suicide situation. That is no longer the case.

As far as bottles of liquid go, a person could construct a binary weapon that would detonate before anyone noticed...which is the logic as to why bottles are still small and limited. Not saying it's great logic, but it is logic.

FC

There have been significant changes made to aircraft since 9/11. All cockpit doors are now strengthened to the point that a knife probably won't do much to the door. The doors are locked from inside the cockpit so you can't just go up and open it. I am sure there are other security changes that we don't know about.

FastCargo said:

I want to carry my Gerber multi tool.
Personally, the days of a dude with a small blade taking over an airliner are long past. No one seriously expecting to succeed is going to try with the knives they will be allowing...even if one or two passengers are hurt, the rest will be all over him like white on rice. The main reason box cutters worked is because everyone was expecting a hostage situation, not a suicide situation. That is no longer the case.
FC

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You're kidding, right? They've already tested our weaknesses. Then they executed them. You are suggesting that we open the doors again? Foolish move.

FastCargo said:

Personally, the days of a dude with a small blade taking over an airliner are long past. FC

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After 9/11, if someone pulled a knife I think everyone from the 9 month old baby to the 99 year old grandma would "dog pile" on the person. I would risk a cut than flying into a building...

I usually carry a small swiss army pocketknife. The screwdrivers alone I've used numerous times. But when I fly I generally do carry on so I have to leave it at home.

I also agree there are many ways to be dangerous that can't be covered. As others have suggested, sharp credit card edges, a sharp pen could be stabbed in the neck, etc. etc. There is just no way to protect from everything, but that doesn't mean there shouldn't be some rules - just how realistic are those rules.

And personally, I am bothered by how "secure" we try to make flying, but there is no such similar concern for buses, trains, subways, etc.

And while a plane crash is tragic, look at the number of deaths/illness/injuries associated with smoking or cars per year . But the main focus is on airplane safety :confused2:

OK...so here's another scenario for you. Said angry person / or otherwise, takes a passenger hostage with a knife to the throat and wants the complete attention of the pilot? Nobody want's this innocent person to get harmed...K? White on rice may not stop this passenger from being a victim. I'm pretty sure I have made my point and honestly, I see no reason for travelers to carry anything on a plane, subway, bus or any kind of public trans. The roots of deadly aggression have already been planted. It's like trying to unsee what you have seen. It isn't likely.

It's a false flag to scare the public and justify huge expenditures in the name of safe travel and homeland security. It's also a way to get us to voluntarily give up long cherished freedoms, do you think that Americans would have put up with half of the BS they do now pre 9-11? Unfortunately too many scare way too easily and are willing to give up real freedom in the name of perceived security. 50 years ago we would have turned half the world into a glass parking lot before changing our way of life. A lot has changed since then and most of it for the worse. Ol' tailgunner Joe had it right.

There are probably a couple TSA agents carrying around Leatherman Squirts that I forgot to take out of my bag. It's a decent tool but small enough I can carry it all the time, even on the locked hospital floors where I work. I could probably kill somebody with the little knife on it, but it would take enough time and focus that I'd get clobbered by somebody else.

I agree that the attitudes of passengers have changed: the recommendation used to be if someone hijacks your plane, just sit tight and wait it out. Anybody who acts up on a plane now gets attacked by every other passenger and winds up duct-taped to their seat. How many hijack attempts have there been since 9/11? I can't recall any, maybe a couple overseas?

I think small pocketknives are probably fine.

Gary Byrum said:

OK...so here's another scenario for you. Said angry person / or otherwise, takes a passenger hostage with a knife to the throat and wants the complete attention of the pilot? Nobody want's this innocent person to get harmed...K? White on rice may not stop this passenger from being a victim. I'm pretty sure I have made my point and honestly, I see no reason for travelers to carry anything on a plane, subway, bus or any kind of public trans. The roots of deadly aggression have already been planted. It's like trying to unsee what you have seen. It isn't likely.

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One person dying on an airplane isn't what the TSA is trying to prevent. It is that aircraft being turned into a massive fuel air bomb unleashed on a soft target or a aircraft full of passengers dying in a spectacular fashion...or both. A small non-locking knife is not going to cause that to happen again in this day of hardened cockpit doors, active engagement by passengers, armed air marshalls and pilots.

Oh, and guess what? The pilot's primary duty in such a situation is to get the aircraft safely on the ground...no matter what happens in the back. Period. Your scenario does not change anything...no matter if they use a sharpened credit card (allowed), small scissors (allowed since 2005), plastic knitting needle (allowed since 2005), a lighter (allowed since 2007) or small non-locking blade (soon to be allowed). There is no 'getting the pilot's attention'. There is no negotiation, delaying tactics, etc. Something happens in the back, and the pilot will be working to get the aircraft on the ground quickly and safely...no matter what the guy in back attempts or threatens to attempt.

The only way to avoid someone not carrying SOMETHING dangerous to other people on the aircraft is to fly naked. I'd rather the TSA focus on something other than blades shorter than a metal mechanical pen.

FC

Remember Flt 1549 ? Plane crash landed in Hudson river. One of the life rafts was tied to the plane while it was sinking, actually there is a video of it happening.
No one had a knife to cut the raft loose. Think of the frightening panic.
Until minutes later the captain threw one out the cockpit window.

I vote for the survival knife, but settle for a pen knife.

They never bothered my 4-point shuriken (throwing star) on my belt buckle.

Rather than pontificate I will simply post this where the TSA and a security expert trade their views on the overall effectiveness of TSA prior to this ruling:
https://www.economist.com/debate/days/view/820

Please read.