Rant: why have rules at all?

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I'll be honest, Ari. If you were in my club, and a TAP or L3CC called me and asked about you, I'd tell them your flight experience, followed by, "I don't think he's ready". You have two J motor flights. The difference between a J and an M is huge.

-Kevin

hmm... j712 - M3000....
i resemble that remark.... Although it did take me 3 - J motors to get my l2...
 
Ari ... I think it's apparent that I have nothing against odd-rocs. I'm best known at our local launches as the guy who flies the four-foot tall, eight-legged, furry rocket. And, I spent a few hours a while back watching videos of your glider flights. They are very impressive.

But, I have to agree with the idea of building and flying a more conventional rocket for your Level 3. The goal of the certification process is for you to demonstrate that you have the skill and knowlege to safely fly the larger rockets. Your audience for the demonstration is the L3CC or TAP. Not only do you have to understand what you are doing, you have to communicate it to them so that they understand. Part of the reason for the pushback against the glider or "bucket rocket" may be that they don't feel they can properly analyze your project or offer feedback like they are supposed to do.

-- Roger
 
One more flying analogy I'd like to make here.

One of the things you hear around the flying world is 'Don't shine your ass on a checkride'. For those who are unclear, a checkride is an evaluation flight, usually given to either earn or renew a particular flight rating. The idea is that in normal operations, you may ride a little closer to the limits to save time, fuel, etc. You aren't being unsafe or illegal, just flying closer to tolerance level. An example would be on a descent, trying to make the next altitude and speed restriction exactly at that point verses leveling off a few miles prior at the proper speed.

You should approach a cert the same way...fly down the black line with a known design. Keep it conservative for max margins and fewest stink eye looks.

FC
 
hmm... j712 - M3000....
i resemble that remark.... Although it did take me 3 - J motors to get my l2...

Yep, you do. And you're still Level 2. More experience at Level 2 may well have resulted in a greater chance of success on the Level 3.

It's not a guarantee, but it helps the odds.

Now, before anyone asks, I'll be up front on my Level 3.

Attempt #1: LDRS 21, HyperTEK hybrid, the ignition wire induced a current in the break wire I used for launch detect, confusing the altimeter and causing it to fire pretty much as soon as the wire broke. Someone else had the same failure at the same launch, and the rocketry community learned from it.

Attempt #2: Same rocket, same motor, different electronics setup. Nominal flight, but the main came out at apogee, and Tripoli rules at the same said "recovery as designed". I didn't plan for a main at apogee, so no cert.

Attempt #3: Same rocket, same motor, several years later. The airframe collapsed on the way up. The suspicion is that in moving the rocket around over the years, I whacked it with something and compromised the tube (fiberglass over cardboard).

Attempt #4: Up was fine. No recovery on the way down. Lots of theories as to why, but nothing concrete, because we couldn't get to the charges.

Attempt #5: The infamous buckets. Worked nominally, all was fine. Three weeks later, I flew another rocket, at BALLS, on a Research M to a smidge over Mach, with nominal recovery.

-Kevin
 
i will share my L3 attempts too. after raising my personal sucess rate for electronic recovery to 15 straight perfect flights and recovery, many over mach on L's i figured i was ready for a normal low and slow flight.....boy was i wrong trying new things for a cert bit me good.. all three attempts were the same rocket

Attempt #1 LOKI M2550 Blue. up part was fine to 7000ft everything great at apogee, both altimeters fired main was set for 1000 with backup at 800, both fired... NOTHING hit the ground at 67FPS get it back to table nosecone cocked over a bit.

Diagnosis: tried something new by recessing the bulk plate into the nosecone to allow for a tracker compartment later on. 6 grain main charge split the nosecone shoulder below the recessed bulkplate. causing it to bind up under preasure

Attempt #2 LOKI M2550 Blue. up part again flawless matched previous flight data of 7000k agl. apogee on que again. this time nosecone was built with bulkplate at the end of the shoulder and foam filled. 1000ft comes boom laundry comes out looking good... never inflates the 15ft round chute. NO CERT... DIDN'T PERFORM AS DOCUMENTED...

Diagnosis: 67FPS is too slow to open a 36 shroud line military chute in under 900ft.

Attempt #3 CTI N2501 white. over MACH.. up part freaking awsome. everthing according to new recovery plan of chute change to SKYANGLE FLAWLESS....

learned a new way to pack chute and roll in protective blanket that works everytime from Rick V. also learned to calculate chute size for post burn weight which i never thought of...

Every time my TAPs would go over everything that went right and what went wrong to see how i can improve the results.
 
You should keep in mind that it is not the rocket that is being certified. With all certifications the flyer needs to build a rocket to demonstrate the skills and knowledge needed to move to the next level of certification, the final part is to test the flight to see if his/her skills and knowledge worked and the rocket flies and recovers safely. As with any flight there is a little bit of luck that may be a factor, the more experience you have will help to reduce the bad luck factor. On the other hand I have seen people with very little to no HP experience have good luck and with a poor build still have a successful cert and then things go terribly wrong shortly after. I have also seen people with a lot of HP experience have failure after failure....Certification is of the flyer and with more experience comes knowledge and the good judgement and safe decisions and practices.
 
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Yep, you do. And you're still Level 2. More experience at Level 2 may well have resulted in a greater chance of success on the Level 3.

It's not a guarantee, but it helps the odds.

Now, before anyone asks, I'll be up front on my Level 3.

Attempt #1: LDRS 21, HyperTEK hybrid, the ignition wire induced a current in the break wire I used for launch detect, confusing the altimeter and causing it to fire pretty much as soon as the wire broke. Someone else had the same failure at the same launch, and the rocketry community learned from it.

Attempt #2: Same rocket, same motor, different electronics setup. Nominal flight, but the main came out at apogee, and Tripoli rules at the same said "recovery as designed". I didn't plan for a main at apogee, so no cert.

Attempt #3: Same rocket, same motor, several years later. The airframe collapsed on the way up. The suspicion is that in moving the rocket around over the years, I whacked it with something and compromised the tube (fiberglass over cardboard).

Attempt #4: Up was fine. No recovery on the way down. Lots of theories as to why, but nothing concrete, because we couldn't get to the charges.

Attempt #5: The infamous buckets. Worked nominally, all was fine. Three weeks later, I flew another rocket, at BALLS, on a Research M to a smidge over Mach, with nominal recovery.

-Kevin

I got a random raw deal..... My first L3, has flown 2 more times to 8,000' since my first L3 failure.

Liftoff_Desktop.jpg

Not complaining...at all. But I did learn from the experience.
Theres nothing sufficiently more difficult from 5,100 ns, to 5200 ns.
from 740ns to 9000ns is a stretch... and can be planned for. Nothing wrong with it in my opinion if that is what someone wants to do. A rocket is a rocket is a rocket...

my next flight will be 12,500ns. Then 33kns if all goes well....
 
I got a random raw deal..... My first L3, has flown 2 more times to 8,000' since my first L3 failure.

<img src="https://www.rocketryforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=119683"/>

Not complaining...at all. But I did learn from the experience.
Theres nothing sufficiently more difficult from 5,100 ns, to 5200 ns.
from 740ns to 9000ns is a stretch... and can be planned for. Nothing wrong with it in my opinion if that is what someone wants to do. A rocket is a rocket is a rocket...

my next flight will be 12,500ns. Then 33kns if all goes well....

Baby steps, baby steps. With every step there are new and different challenges.
 
Baby steps, baby steps. With every step there are new and different challenges.

Yes, yes!...
a prefect that i was talking to on the phone one day ... said something, that at the time, I didnt feel like it was accurate, but i realized i was being measured from a percieved angle. The right or wrong of what i was wanting to do, wasn't by any means "serious stuff". Just outside of my aquired tool set. something to the effect of. "You would in my opinion be fool hardy to expect successful results."
The term "Fool hardy" i had heard before but never paid any attention to. But, after revaluating my "ideas and wishes" i realized something. Epictitus said, "if one seeks improvement, be content to be thought a fool." and hardy is well, Hardy.

I now ask myself with each endevour, am i "fool hardy", in my expectations. To me, the question "is this good enough for now, because i can apply what i learn later." Or, is this the culmination of my revisions 1 - 110?
I have found my failures like most of us, will occur, and they occur in random areas where you say to yourself ?wtf? I didn't see that. But, that if you do it right, even though it failed doesnt mean you were fool hardy.

My failure was as simple as too small of tubular kevlar, should have used the 1" webbing i have now. works great. A drouge may have helped, maybe not.
 
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