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Freon Powered...Really?


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  1. #1
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    Freon Powered...Really?

    Boy I'll bet this will get the tree hugging envrionmentalist panties in a wad.

    http://www.ebay.com/itm/estes-vintag...81052935868%26
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  2. #2
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    It would be bad for the environment, but then again, so are making hybrids and making batteries for cars.
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  3. #3
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    Can someone explain to me how this would work?

  4. #4
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    Simple..ya blow up a ballon, then let it go.......whooosh...it flies around the room. They made a rocket that worked on the same principal, fill it with compressed air, release that very fast through a nozzle it goes up....except they used freon. It had more energy than air when stored in same space so it went higher.

    Well we all now know that freon is bad for the environment so blah...blah..blah.

    These cold power rockets were from 60-70's before that came to light, & were not a financial success anyway....they went the way of the dinosaurs. Every now & then an old kit comes up for sale such as that one.

    As a footnote....I have seen these converted for fly on compressed air.
    Last edited by blackjack2564; 27th January 2013 at 10:28 AM.
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  5. #5
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    Look up Vashon. They started it up then sold out to Estes. A Vashon rocket on eBay can go for $150.

    There was once a Freon powered BB machine gun that could fire 3000 per minute called the M19A Annilator. Fireing it was described as spraying things down with a golden stream of BB's. They used it to shoot dragonflies out of the air.
    Last edited by dave carver; 27th January 2013 at 11:39 AM.
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  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by closet astronaut View Post
    Boy I'll bet this will get the tree hugging envrionmentalist panties in a wad.


    It's your environment, too, commando. But, as you live in Florida, I can understand you wouldn't be too fond of your "environment".
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  8. #8
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  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by KennB View Post


    It's your environment, too, commando.".
    Did "tree huggin environmentalist" sound mean? This is one of those areas that could degrade into pandamonious discussion, yes I believe we should be good stewarts of the world we live in, yes I want to breath clean air, yes I want to drink clean water, but there are those who have turned environmental issues into a religion, don't believe it? Look up, "Report from Iron Mountain.

    Quote Originally Posted by KennB View Post
    But, as you live in Florida, I can understand you wouldn't be too fond of your "environment".
    Was that a shot across the bow? It's so funny, all my life I've heard people take pot shot's at Fl, untill the weather get's bad up north, then they head down here in droves. We have a saying down here among natives, (those actually born here, which is a very, *very* small minority)..."When I get old, I'm going to move up north and drive slow"
    Last edited by closet astronaut; 27th January 2013 at 03:18 PM.
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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by dave carver View Post
    Look up Vashon. They started it up then sold out to Estes. A Vashon rocket on eBay can go for $150.

    There was once a Freon powered BB machine gun that could fire 3000 per minute called the M19A Annilator. Fireing it was described as spraying things down with a golden stream of BB's. They used it to shoot dragonflies out of the air.
    A friend of mine had one years ago, he attached a quick coupler to it so he could hook his air hose to it.It had such a high rate of fire you could make the clothesline move by shooting at it..IIRC I thought it was called a larc or something like that

  11. #11

    Phase transition of fluorocarbon compressible fluids

    Quote Originally Posted by Dork_Vader View Post
    Can someone explain to me how this would work?
    Basically energy is stored in the phase transition of the working fluid, a fluorocarbon in this case. When compressed it phase changes to a liquid storing energy along the way. This process has a higher energy density than simply compressing a gas(compressible fluid), at least in this case. When released to a lower pressure, 1atm in this case, the potential energy stored in the phase transition is released as kinetic energy in the form of work done on the vessel, aka thrust. There are a few other factors such as temperature and some other fluid dynamics. This fluid is similar to ammonia and carbon dioxide. I suppose the amount of potential energy would be equal to the fluid volume multiplied by the heat of condensation. I hope this helps, have a great one.

  12. #12
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    What is really funny , there is more damage done to the ozone on a daily basis due to cow gas , then all the damage EVER done by freon.

  13. #13
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    Now, now! Don't blame the cows. If it wasn't for them, how could you have cow paddy fights?
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  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by 3stoogesrocketry View Post
    What is really funny , there is more damage done to the ozone on a daily basis due to cow gas , then all the damage EVER done by freon.
    I can agree with that I live in Tulare County we have a ton of dairies.. I get multiple sinus infections a year because of them. That and walnut orchards.

    I will say this though my dog does more damage to environment when she farts.

  15. #15
    I wonder what a cows rate of digestion what have to be to generate enough fuel per unit time to reach at least a 3:1 thrust to weight ratio?

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by dave carver View Post
    Look up Vashon. They started it up then sold out to Estes. A Vashon rocket on eBay can go for $150.

    There was once a Freon powered BB machine gun that could fire 3000 per minute called the M19A Annilator. Fireing it was described as spraying things down with a golden stream of BB's. They used it to shoot dragonflies out of the air.
    I can imagine what mowing the lawn after that would be like. Any glass in the area would be doomed.
    Shrox

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by closet astronaut View Post
    Boy I'll bet this will get the tree hugging envrionmentalist panties in a wad.

    http://www.ebay.com/itm/estes-vintag...81052935868%26
    Yep, that's an old COLD POWER rocket kit... these were first produced by Vashon Industries (Vashon, Washington) back in the 70's... then they got bought out by Estes. The motors worked by being fuelled with pressurized liquid freon from a special filler valve affixed to a standard can of freon (which Estes sold their own "rebranded" Freon called "RP-100 rocket propellant", but basically ANY "house brand" freon available from any hardware or auto parts store in the 70's and early 80's for less than a buck would work).

    This was LONG before the "ozone hole" baloney came about and they outlawed freon R-12, and limited sales of it to refrigerant-licensed technicians and then phased it out entirely and replaced it with freon R-134A. It's against federal law to vent freon to the atmosphere nowdays (not that it doens't happen a thousand times a day anyway (every car wreck that punctures the AC system components, people hauling off old cars or old appliances where the junkyards won't take them with the refrigerant system intact (must cut the hose or remove the coils-- which are aluminum and you get more money for them ripping them out and selling them as aluminum anyway, and then of course there's halon, which is basically a souped-up version of R-12 used as a fire extinguishing chemical in aircraft and industrial settings). One of the biggest contributors to freon released into the atmosphere was halon in aircraft, in fact, and freon was regularly used to clean and purge rocket propellant tanks and lines (ESPECIALLY LOX tanks, since even a stray fingerprint in a line or tank could cause a fire or explosion, as the LOX could ignite from contact even with traces of fingerprint oils...) Massive amounts of freon were used to clean and purge the tanks, washing away and boiling off any stray oils or materials in/on the metals in the tanks and propellant lines). Of course, the most VISIBLE "source" was automotive AC systems, which is where the regulations landed...

    The cold propellant motors can in fact still be flown. Back when they came out, they were introduced to allow model rocketry in areas where it was prohibited as "fireworks". Since the boiling freon didn't in fact burn, this circumvented to restrictive regulations (regulations which took DECADES and TONS of hard work by the likes of G. Harry Stine and others to overturn and change). Of course nowdays, to be within the letter of the law, you cannot fly them on "freon" (nor would you want to, given the exhorbitant prices they get for a can of R-134A nowdays, and you can't get R-12 at all, of course). However, you CAN fly them using "airbrush propellant" (the release of which isn't restricted). The performance isn't quite as good, but it works. The problem with the liquid cold propellant motors is, they work via the principle of latent heat of evaporation-- IE, using a liquid who's boiling point is below ambient temperature, which can only be maintained as a liquid when contained under pressure. Basically, a "low cryogenic" fluid like freon or airbrush propellant or "canned air" used to blow off keyboards (and pressurize spray paint cans and stuff like that). The liquid must be kept under pressure-- if the pressure is removed or lowered (allowed to spray out) the liquid begins to boil until it raises the pressure back above its boiling point. Of course, the outside temperature has a lot to do with how well this process works... IOW, how much heat is available for boiling the propellant (which takes heat away as it does, producing the 'refrigeration effect'. That's why freon gets cold when it boils in your air conditioner, drawing heat out of the evaporator core, which then draws heat out of the air blown through it by the fan.) As the temperature drops, the motor is less and less effective until at about -20 or so (IIRC going from memory), a cold propellant motor wouldn't work at all-- it would just dribble liquid propellant out the back like leaking water!

    The cold propellant motors were fascinating engineering... a small aluminum tank build similarly to an aerosol can, with a nozzle at the bottom. This nozzle was plugged by a small rubber and metallic plug, which would seal off the nozzle, retained by either a pull-pin pushed through the nozzle and it, holding it in place, or a burn wire consisting of a piece of bare nichrome wire (which was commonly used as ignitor wire in solid propellant rockets (regular model rockets) at the time). The motor was typically "fuelled" either by a small tube connecting the filler valve and propellant can to either the nozzle (filled through the nozzle plug) or through a special "needle valve" virtually identical to a basketball air valve located on the side of the propellant tank, into which a "needle" much like that used to fill basketballs with air was inserted, connected to a tube connected to the filler can valve. The valve on the can was opened and freon would flow through the small hose or tube into the rocket motor tank, until it was full. Then the valve was closed and the needle withdrawn from the filler valve, which sealed itself off automatically (like a basketball air valve). The rocket would then be launched in one of two ways... the "pull pin" on the nozzle would be pulled out via a lanyard or string, or the burn wire would be burned in two electrically by a regular model rocket launch controller similar to that used for launching solid propellant rocket motors. When the burn wire burned in two, the plug would be ejected by the pressure of the liquid freon in the tank, which would then squirt out the back, boiling instantly due to the pressure drop across the orifice in the nozzle, which would create thrust and cause the rocket to lift off. As the pressure in the tank dropped, the freon would begin to boil in the tank, creating more pressure to keep pushing the remaing freon out of the tank, through the nozzle, until all the freon had squirted out the nozzle and boiled off, at which point the remaining gas pressure of the freon gas in the tank would vent through the nozzle, and the rocket would begin to coast.

    Now, the time delay and parachute ejection functions were the most interesting engineering design and challenge. This was a very elegant solution-- The delay time was set by installing a number of small paper disks in a threaded fitting at the front end of the tank... the more paper disks, the longer the time delay. The paper disks were between the freon tank itself, and a small bellows located above them, connected to linkages which had gripping pads attached to the ends of the, which fit up inside the upper body tube of the rocket. The parachute was packed normally (so it could slide out very easily!) and placed up inside the tube, and then the upper body tube slid over the arms, usually against a spring which pushed the upper section off. Then the rocket was fuelled, and the freon gas at the top of the tank, under pressure, would leak through the paper disks and fill the bellows, extending them, pushing the gripper arms out against the body tube, holding it in place. The rocket would be fully fueled and then launched. After all the freon in the tank had been expended out the nozzle, the pressure inside the motor tank dropped to "zero" (ambient pressure, depending on altitude) and the freon gas pressurizing the bellows would begin to leak out through the paper disks back into the motor tank, and vent out the nozzle. When the pressure in the bellows leaked down to "zero" (ambient pressure), the clamps would relax and retract, and the spring would push off the upper body tube of the rocket, allowing the parachute to fall out and deploy.

    There were also booster motors for multistaged cold propellant motors which worked in a similar fashion, just releasing as soon as the freon in the first stage motor was gone, allowing the upper stage to be unclamped and blow itself off the plug, which let the freon in the upper stage tank start thrusting out the nozzle.

    Because the energy propelling the rocket was derived strictly from the boiling of a pressurized liquid into gas, it was not particularly energetic-- meaning it needed a lot of propellant for not much power... basically the highest they went was considered a "C" motor. Because the propellant boiling is greatly affected by the ambient conditions, the motor's performance was DIRECTLY CORRELATED to the climatic conditions at launch... On a hot, Texas (or Florida) summer afternoon, the motor had LOTS of heat to absorb and the propellant liquid would be very warm as it flowed into the tank, and thus it would boil at a higher pressure, and produce more thrust. On a cool, dreary late fall or early spring day, the same motor might be more like an "A" or small "B" motor... On a cold winter day, the motor might barely have enough power to get off the pad...

    There are ways to improve the performanc of cold propellant rockets, however... aside from launching in the middle of summer... One thing is to INCREASE THE HEAT CONTENT of the propellant, which increases the latent heat of evaporation, and thus the motor's performance. Heating the can of freon (or airbrush propellant nowdays) by setting the can in a bowl of hot water (not boiling of course-- hot tap water) for about 20 minutes would allow a LOT of heat from the water to soak into the propellant can and the liquid propellant, heat which is stored in the now-warm liquid, raising its pressure (which is why warming your spray paint cans in hot water is a good idea-- it lowers the paint viscosity and increases the propellant liquid's vapor pressure and latent heat of evaporation at the same time, increasing the spray pressure from the can, hence better atomization of the paint). When the liquid propellant goes into the motor, the first dab of propellant into the tank boils off nearly instantly to pressurize the tank and bellows, and this boiling removes heat from the tank and "cools" (refrigerates) it and the propellant. Usually the tanks were silver unpainted aluminum, but painting the tank black to absorb the heat of the sun would increase the heat available in the tank structure itself (the aluminum) and that heat would then also soak into the cooler propellants, since the pressure changes the propellant experiences during fueling as it flows through the can valve, the hose, and the fueling needle tend to allow the propellant to 'expand' and thus refrigerate itself somewhat as it flows through the components into the tank. Allowing the rocket to sit a couple minutes or so to absorb some solar heat after fuelling (when it's fully fueled and sitting on the pad, the freon is no longer boiling and giving it time to absorb heat from the black-painted aluminum tank will increase the heat in the refrigerant, and raise the pressure in the tank, and thus the motor's perfomance... Just don't let it sit in direct sunlight TOO long until the motor blew the plug out on it's own from overpressurization-- probably a couple minutes in full sun would be enough to gently warm the propellant back up from the cooling effects of fuelling the rocket).

    Dr. Zooch has a cool video on his website flying one of his "Mark II" rockets equipped with a cold propellant motor fueled with airbrush propellant... including a static test!

    Later! OL JR
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  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by 3stoogesrocketry View Post
    What is really funny , there is more damage done to the ozone on a daily basis due to cow gas , then all the damage EVER done by freon.
    What a crock of cow you know what...

    Later! OL JR
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  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by 3stoogesrocketry View Post
    What is really funny , there is more damage done to the ozone on a daily basis due to cow gas , then all the damage EVER done by freon.
    The ozone layer is damaged by compounds which release chlorine. There is no chlorine in cow farts. There is lots of chlorine in freon. Freon is stable enough to survive in the atmosphere, and light enough to make it's way to the upper layers, where it happily produces free chlorine atoms when exposed to UV radiation. That single atom of chlorine then goes on to obliterate, on average, 10000 molecules of ozone before it is neutralized.

    But hey, we don't need to worry about that. It's not like we live here or anything. Plus, there are crazy environmentalists out there! And that means we should do as much damage as possible just to piss them off. That's the rational thing to do.
    Last edited by Nerull; 27th January 2013 at 09:58 PM.

  20. #20
    estes had cold-power rocket powered cars to . I still have one in my closet never been built .

    Bobby

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerull View Post
    The ozone layer is damaged by compounds which release chlorine. There is no chlorine in cow farts. There is lots of chlorine in freon. Freon is stable enough to survive in the atmosphere, and light enough to make it's way to the upper layers, where it happily produces free chlorine atoms when exposed to UV radiation. That single atom of chlorine then goes on to obliterate, on average, 10000 molecules of ozone before it is neutralized.
    So goes the dogma... of course, here's the thing... while the regulators singled out chlorofluorocarbon refrigerant and aerosol propellant gases as the "bad guys" that MUST be outlawed to save the planet, they IGNORE all the other sources of chlorine entering the atmosphere... For instance, HALON... aircraft have been venting massive quantities of halon and other refrigerant gasses into the atmosphere for DECADES and yet very little in the way of regulations to address THIS source has been instituted. What about chlorinated water and chlorine bleaches?? They also release chlorine gas/atoms/compounds into the environment as they degrade... don't like the taste of your tap water?? Too "chlorine-ey"-- draw a glass of water up and let it set overnight-- the chlorine will "outgas" into the atmosphere... literally MILLIONS of tons of chlorine are used for water purification, and virtually ALL of it goes into the atmosphere ultimately... Then of course there's NATURAL sources-- volcanoes in particular inject hundreds of thousands of tons of chlorine gas and compounds into the atmosphere each year... and most of that directly into the UPPER atmosphere, and we have ZERO means of controlling that either.

    Besides, NOBODY has EVER explained how a heavier-than-air refrigerant gas magically ascends to the extreme height of the ozone layer to do all this damage... I'm a trained mechanic and that's one thing they drilled into us, that is, the necessity of being very careful working with refrigerants in close proximity to service pits-- ya know, those things in the floor where you drive a car over them so you can stand up to work on the underside and still have clearance to do stuff... there have been many mechanics who've gotten gassed into unconsciousness or even DIED from asphyxiation due to refrigerant gas from a leaking vehicle AC system being worked on in the next bay, "pooling" along the floor and eventually "pouring" down into the pit, displacing the air and depriving the poor guy working in it of oxygen... thus rendering him unconscious or dead).

    Quote Originally Posted by Nerull View Post
    But hey, we don't need to worry about that. It's not like we live here or anything. Plus, there are crazy environmentalists out there! And that means we should do as much damage as possible just to piss them off. That's the rational thing to do.
    I don't think anybody's saying that... BUT I think that we don't need to enshrine whatever trendy junk-science or environmentalist wackos come up with next as public policy... there needs to be a burden of proof, and a realistic assessment of what the effects of some of these policies REALLY are... and the effectiveness of them. When I read about stupid stuff like the EPA's attempts to regulate "cow farts" and stuff like that, as a rancher, I cringe... idiots that know nothing about the cattle business looking to cripple an entire sector of the US food production capability, probably irreparably, over a virtually non-existant problem... the truth is, MEGATONS of methane enter the atmosphere from natural sources that are COMPLETELY UNCONTROLLABLE every single year... with the melting of arctic tundra, millions of tons of methane are coming out of decaying plant matter from formerly frozen soils... plus methane hydrates on the ocean floor outgassing in some areas due to increased seawater temperatures... plus natural plant decay in marshes, bogs, swamps, and even leaf litter sinking in rivers-- heck I was swimming this summer and collected a Gatorade bottle of methane in a matter of a few minutes, just collecting the bubbles coming up from the muddy river bottom inside the upturned bottle...

    Is anybody seriously contemplating outlawing swamps, bogs, marshes, or permafrost?? No, just looking for ways to screw livestock farmers out of more money...

    In the end, its all about screwing people out of more money-- that's it...

    Later! OL JR

    PS... not wanting to drag this off topic, so I won't comment on this any more...
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  22. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by luke strawwalker View Post
    So goes the dogma... of course, here's the thing... while the regulators singled out chlorofluorocarbon refrigerant and aerosol propellant gases as the "bad guys" that MUST be outlawed to save the planet, they IGNORE all the other sources of chlorine entering the atmosphere... For instance, HALON... aircraft have been venting massive quantities of halon and other refrigerant gasses into the atmosphere for DECADES and yet very little in the way of regulations to address THIS source has been instituted. What about chlorinated water and chlorine bleaches?? They also release chlorine gas/atoms/compounds into the environment as they degrade... don't like the taste of your tap water?? Too "chlorine-ey"-- draw a glass of water up and let it set overnight-- the chlorine will "outgas" into the atmosphere... literally MILLIONS of tons of chlorine are used for water purification, and virtually ALL of it goes into the atmosphere ultimately... Then of course there's NATURAL sources-- volcanoes in particular inject hundreds of thousands of tons of chlorine gas and compounds into the atmosphere each year... and most of that directly into the UPPER atmosphere, and we have ZERO means of controlling that either.

    Besides, NOBODY has EVER explained how a heavier-than-air refrigerant gas magically ascends to the extreme height of the ozone layer to do all this damage... I'm a trained mechanic and that's one thing they drilled into us, that is, the necessity of being very careful working with refrigerants in close proximity to service pits-- ya know, those things in the floor where you drive a car over them so you can stand up to work on the underside and still have clearance to do stuff... there have been many mechanics who've gotten gassed into unconsciousness or even DIED from asphyxiation due to refrigerant gas from a leaking vehicle AC system being worked on in the next bay, "pooling" along the floor and eventually "pouring" down into the pit, displacing the air and depriving the poor guy working in it of oxygen... thus rendering him unconscious or dead).



    I don't think anybody's saying that... BUT I think that we don't need to enshrine whatever trendy junk-science or environmentalist wackos come up with next as public policy... there needs to be a burden of proof, and a realistic assessment of what the effects of some of these policies REALLY are... and the effectiveness of them. When I read about stupid stuff like the EPA's attempts to regulate "cow farts" and stuff like that, as a rancher, I cringe... idiots that know nothing about the cattle business looking to cripple an entire sector of the US food production capability, probably irreparably, over a virtually non-existant problem... the truth is, MEGATONS of methane enter the atmosphere from natural sources that are COMPLETELY UNCONTROLLABLE every single year... with the melting of arctic tundra, millions of tons of methane are coming out of decaying plant matter from formerly frozen soils... plus methane hydrates on the ocean floor outgassing in some areas due to increased seawater temperatures... plus natural plant decay in marshes, bogs, swamps, and even leaf litter sinking in rivers-- heck I was swimming this summer and collected a Gatorade bottle of methane in a matter of a few minutes, just collecting the bubbles coming up from the muddy river bottom inside the upturned bottle...

    Is anybody seriously contemplating outlawing swamps, bogs, marshes, or permafrost?? No, just looking for ways to screw livestock farmers out of more money...

    In the end, its all about screwing people out of more money-- that's it...

    Later! OL JR

    PS... not wanting to drag this off topic, so I won't comment on this any more...
    Chlorine released at lower levels in the atmosphere does not effect the ozone layer. It's too reactive and is neutralized before it ever gets there. The danger of CFCs is that they are stable until they reach the UV-rich upper atmosphere. They release chlorine right where it does the most damage.

    They get there for the same reason we haven't all suffocated under a blanket of CO2. Once gasses dilute in the atmosphere, mixing overcomes relative densities. The atmosphere is not stratified, or we wouldn't be able to breathe. Oxygen is lighter than nitrogen, so it should all be concentrated in the upper atmosphere, right?

    As a CFC, Halon production has been banned in most of the world since 1994. Most halon still in use today is recycled. In much of the world its use is highly restricted.

    You can call it 'dogma' all you want. Reality doesn't require you to believe it, and we also shouldn't set policy based on the ravings of crackpots.
    Last edited by Nerull; 31st January 2013 at 03:56 AM.

  23. #23
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    Had a Valkyrie II back when they were being sold by Vashon Industries directly. Lost it flying from a big park in Santa Fe, New Mexico on a nice warm summer day. I may still have a can of RP-100 somewhere. The toolbox that was my Vashon field box is still doing more normal toolbox duty, well over 30 years on. Ironically I now live fairly close to Vashon Island, where they came from in the first place.

    Luke's description of how they worked was well detailed and agrees with my memory - except that the Valkyrie II didn't have a spring to push the parachute compartment off....so recovery depended on the mylar 'chute just falling out of the tube and yet opening. About as reliable as flying a regular Estes 'chute in a small diameter rocket on a cold day....

    Along with all the clever touches he described, I thought the means of mounting balsa fins to an aluminum tank body was pretty clever, too. You attached a plastic extruded clip to the body with contact cement and then the fins slid snugly into these rails.

    Also, you didn't HAVE to fill the tank all the way, if you wanted a lower altitude flight - something I should've done that summer day in Santa Fe....

    As for Halons in aircraft.....we've been trying to find something that does what Halons do for both engine and cargo compartment fires for years and years and so far nothing has passed all the tests to be certifiable - especially for jet engine fires. Until we get there, aircraft are sort of "grandfathered in" for the use of Halons - which are under lots of handling restrictions and recovered and recycled as much as practical. I know Eclipse has (or had?) something called PhostrEx but those are pretty small engines that need fire suppression and there is no cargo compartment....

    Meanwhile, due to the bigger engines and newer cargo fire suppression certification rules, 737 MAX airplanes will be carrying something like 20 lbs. more Halon than Next Generation 737s do.
    Last edited by BEC; 31st January 2013 at 04:15 AM.
    Bernard Cawley
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    KG7AIE

  24. #24
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    I had one of the Coldpower rockets back in the {early?/mid?} 1970's. I was never able to get it to work - I was even more useless then than now - and it probably eventually got thrown out. So much for $150 on eBay....

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by closet astronaut View Post
    Boy I'll bet this will get the tree hugging envrionmentalist panties in a wad.
    That's not difficult to do....


  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerull View Post
    Chlorine released at lower levels in the atmosphere does not effect the ozone layer. It's too reactive and is neutralized before it ever gets there. The danger of CFCs is that they are stable until they reach the UV-rich upper atmosphere. They release chlorine right where it does the most damage.

    They get there for the same reason we haven't all suffocated under a blanket of CO2. Once gasses dilute in the atmosphere, mixing overcomes relative densities. The atmosphere is not stratified, or we wouldn't be able to breathe. Oxygen is lighter than nitrogen, so it should all be concentrated in the upper atmosphere, right?

    As a CFC, Halon production has been banned in most of the world since 1994. Most halon still in use today is recycled. In much of the world its use is highly restricted.

    You can call it 'dogma' all you want. Reality doesn't require you to believe it, and we also shouldn't set policy based on the ravings of crackpots.
    Exactly, this is elementary chemistry and basic physics. The problem is that the Chlorine attached to the Chlorofluorocarbon molecules is in a stable state...in a system with "normal" O2 and little high-energy electromagnetic radiation (mostly UV rays, not nuclear/ionizing radiation). Ozone is O3 and extremely reactive, and it reacts with the Chlorine that has become disassociated from the original Freon due to high-energy electromagnetic radiation (not present on the surface because of the ozone layer) yielding ClO and atomic oxygen O.

    Also the "Report from Iron Mountain" is a proven, documented fake that is a conspiracy junkies handbook. It is almost as bad as the "Protocols of Zion". Fortunately it has not provided the justification for widespread oppression and murder like the latter book has.
    The most merciful thing in the world... is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents.
    -H. P. Lovecraft

    Michael R.
    MDRA, CMASS, MMSC
    NAR #87149 Level 2
    KB1WCD

  27. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Cyril's Scribe View Post

    Exactly, this is elementary chemistry and basic physics. The problem is that the Chlorine attached to the Chlorofluorocarbon molecules is in a stable state...in a system with "normal" O2 and little high-energy electromagnetic radiation (mostly UV rays, not nuclear/ionizing radiation). Ozone is O3 and extremely reactive, and it reacts with the Chlorine that has become disassociated from the original Freon due to high-energy electromagnetic radiation (not present on the surface because of the ozone layer) yielding ClO and atomic oxygen O.

    Also the "Report from Iron Mountain" is a proven, documented fake that is a conspiracy junkies handbook. It is almost as bad as the "Protocols of Zion". Fortunately it has not provided the justification for widespread oppression and murder like the latter book has.
    Heck yah, vac UV and atomic oxygen! Somebody get me a laser and spectrometer. I love science!

  28. #28
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    18th January 2009
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    Quote Originally Posted by RocKiteman View Post
    That's not difficult to do....

    Yeah, and apparently some posters here as well... LOL

    Oh well...

    Later! OL JR
    The X-87B Cruise Basselope- THE ultimate weapon in the arsenal of homeland defense and only $52 million per round!

  29. #29
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    Unfortunately dismissive arguments do tend to get some people (yes...myself included, I am as guilty of the sin of presumption as anyone else) riled up.
    The most merciful thing in the world... is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents.
    -H. P. Lovecraft

    Michael R.
    MDRA, CMASS, MMSC
    NAR #87149 Level 2
    KB1WCD

  30. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by closet astronaut View Post
    Boy I'll bet this will get the tree hugging envrionmentalist panties in a wad.
    I don't wear panties!

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