Help Support RocketryForum by donating using the link above or becoming a Supporting Member.


Results 1 to 13 of 13
  1. #1
    Join Date
    20th January 2011
    Location
    Cache Valley, UT
    Posts
    1,061

    What's in Your Battery?

    Not really sure if this should be under the Watering Hole but I figure since your electronics are powered by a battery, it fits here. Yesterday I got a wild hair and wondered how various 9 volt batteries compared. Not from the standpoint of how much it can put out but how it's made so I started tearing stuff apart. This is what I found:

    Energizer
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Energizer.jpg 
Views:	3303 
Size:	139.1 KB 
ID:	115195
    Has a steel case that when prized apart, the contents fell apart in a pile of individual cells and other various bits. I was quite surprised! I thought it would have been a bit more solid. There wasn't one welded connection to be found.

    Rayovac Lithium
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Rayovac Lithium.jpg 
Views:	809 
Size:	109.3 KB 
ID:	115197
    Has an aluminum case around a plastic case. I did not want to proceed without safety glasses and it was getting late.

    Rayovac
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Rayovac.jpg 
Views:	1735 
Size:	137.6 KB 
ID:	115198
    The guy at Batteries Plus says the quality is comparable to Energizer.... Removed case, battery was still intact. One homogeneous unit with welded connections. Made of a stack of cells. Seemed pretty robust.

    Old Western Family
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Old Western Family.jpg 
Views:	541 
Size:	134.2 KB 
ID:	115199
    Every detail was exact to that of the Rayovac. I presume the same manufacture.

    New Western Family
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	New Western Family.jpg 
Views:	546 
Size:	163.3 KB 
ID:	115200
    Not like the old Western Family at all! Did NOT want to come apart. Tough plastic case under the fancy sticker. After much work with some small pliers, I exposed the bottom revealing long cells like the Energizer but connections are spot welded.

    Duracell
    Well, I've run out of picture space here....
    -Ken

    Let's do some stuff!

  2. #2
    Join Date
    20th January 2011
    Location
    Cache Valley, UT
    Posts
    1,061
    So, the mighty Duracell
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Duracell.jpg 
Views:	562 
Size:	124.9 KB 
ID:	115201
    After removing the case, there is a shrink sealed pack of long cells like the Energizer but all connections are spot welded.

    A23
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	A23.jpg 
Views:	674 
Size:	163.6 KB 
ID:	115202
    So it's not a 9 volt but I was on a kick and tore it apart as well. What do you know, out fell 8 1.5 volt LR932 Made in China cells! That could be useful if you needed some of those size button cells.

    My basic conclusions are as follows:
    Rayovac, Duracell, and the new Western Family are very robust. Western family wins because it costs about half of what Duracell costs.

    My questions:
    Are there any advantages of the stacked cells versus the long AAAA-ish sized cells?
    How is internal resistance affected by the different styles?
    What battery puts out the best.... Not sure how to word that one. I suppose I may mean how would discharge curves look? I don't think most manufactures have that info readily available.
    What's everyone else using?
    -Ken

    Let's do some stuff!

  3. #3
    Join Date
    21st April 2010
    Location
    So central WI, USA
    Posts
    5,399
    long and skinny cells likely have a higher internal resistance than the button cells. otoh spot welded cells withstand vibrations better.
    rex

  4. #4
    Join Date
    23rd February 2009
    Location
    Northern NJ
    Posts
    4,958
    Those skinny cells are 6 AAAA batteries.


    JD
    2016:
    NS: 12,571.6
    Flights: 10
    Motors: 17
    EX: 8
    Comm: 9
    ---------------------------
    2015: 32,195 Ns
    F: 38, M: 44
    ----------------------------
    TRA: 04486 L3
    METRA VP
    MDRA
    URRG

  5. #5
    GDJ's Avatar
    GDJ is offline Semi-retired Rocketry guy
    Join Date
    16th August 2011
    Location
    Edmonton, Alberta, CANADA
    Posts
    3,021
    Quote Originally Posted by JDcluster View Post
    Those skinny cells are 6 AAAA batteries.


    JD

    Yep. I use them all the time for the skinny Streamlight LED flashlights. Believe it or not, the cheapest place to buy the actual AAAA cells are off the Snap-on or MAC tools trucks. ($9 for 6). Some drug stores sell a 2-pack for $12 up here (RIPOFF!!).

    I gotta admit, I am curious about the Lithium battery.
    Last edited by GDJ; 27th January 2013 at 02:59 AM.
    Plays with wood, cardboard, and carpenters glue at home.

    Ego intentio parumper perficio fuga , tamen Ego peto a perficio reverto.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    23rd March 2011
    Location
    Goodyear, AZ
    Posts
    2,866
    Madhatter posted this link up on my "Coppertop" thread:
    https://cc.ulbi.com/ecommerce/site/t...s/U9VL-J-P.pdf

    It has several graphs for discharge rates at various temps. Has anyone seen or used one of these?
    NAR 92675 L-3 TRA 14800 KG7IUN
    I may be getting older, but I refuse to grow up.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    20th January 2009
    Location
    Salem, MA
    Posts
    8,352
    Quote Originally Posted by Wayco View Post
    Madhatter posted this link up on my "Coppertop" thread:
    https://cc.ulbi.com/ecommerce/site/t...s/U9VL-J-P.pdf

    It has several graphs for discharge rates at various temps. Has anyone seen or used one of these?
    Yes. Used them from 1999 to 2003 in a number of instrumented warhead packages I made for the Army for flight testing at White Sands. Used 2 in parallel to power 4 RDAS classics used as airborne thermal data collection system in warhead and artillery shells. Could supply standby power for 10 hr minimum waiting for launch. Survived 50 g rocket launch, 20 kg gun launch and 4 kg ground impact when packaged properly in tubes filled with wax.

    Note the Ultralites are designed for long time moderate current drain. They are not designed for multiple amp current drains, and theuy are not rechargable. LiPo batteries are much better for high current draw applications, and they are rechargable.

    Bob

  8. #8
    Join Date
    20th January 2009
    Location
    Salem, MA
    Posts
    8,352
    Quote Originally Posted by kenstarr View Post
    ....
    My basic conclusions are as follows:
    Rayovac, Duracell, and the new Western Family are very robust. Western family wins because it costs about half of what Duracell costs.

    My questions:
    Are there any advantages of the stacked cells versus the long AAAA-ish sized cells?
    How is internal resistance affected by the different styles?
    What battery puts out the best.... Not sure how to word that one. I suppose I may mean how would discharge curves look? I don't think most manufactures have that info readily available.
    What's everyone else using?
    -Ken
    Stacked cells have more guts inside but have smaller electrode areas. They may have a higher capacity (maH) rating but most likey have a higher impedence so they won't put out as much current as the cylindrical batteries. This is definitely true for rechargables, but I'm not 100% sure on the primary (non-rechargable 9 V). You need to check out the data sheets to be sure,

    Internal resistance is lowered with larger area electrodes typically found in cylinder batteries so lower internal resistance means high current output capability. Capacity (maH) is derermined by the electrolyte capacity. More guts more capacity.

    You may have to do a lot of work, but if you search hard, or contact the manufacturer, you can get the datasheets.

    Lithium batteries have greater capacity than alkaline batteries which have greater capacity than heavy duty batteries.

    Shelf life matches capacity: Lithium 10 years, alkaline 7 years, heavy duty 5 years.

    Temperature range is greater for lithium than alkaline than heavy duty.

    Be aware that 7.2 volt 2S1P and 10.8 volt 3S1P Rechargable lithium polymer battery packs and the 7.2 volt 6 AAAA cell nickel metal hydride batteries both have much lower impedence and will deliver much higher peak current capability than any primary 9 V battery.

    Bob
    Last edited by bobkrech; 27th January 2013 at 05:55 PM.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    23rd September 2011
    Location
    Tx.
    Posts
    761
    Quote Originally Posted by GDJ View Post
    Yep. I use them all the time for the skinny Streamlight LED flashlights. Believe it or not, the cheapest place to buy the actual AAAA cells are off the Snap-on or MAC tools trucks. ($9 for 6). Some drug stores sell a 2-pack for $12 up here (RIPOFF!!).

    I gotta admit, I am curious about the Lithium battery.
    Yea those streamlights are great.I have one in my pocket all the time at work and have one at home for building.The pocket clip is great for sliding on the BT so you can see inside hands free

  10. #10
    GDJ's Avatar
    GDJ is offline Semi-retired Rocketry guy
    Join Date
    16th August 2011
    Location
    Edmonton, Alberta, CANADA
    Posts
    3,021
    Quote Originally Posted by Barracuda View Post
    Yea those streamlights are great.I have one in my pocket all the time at work and have one at home for building.The pocket clip is great for sliding on the BT so you can see inside hands free
    Do get the blue/violet one. Makes certain oils fluoresce and you can find leaks.
    Plays with wood, cardboard, and carpenters glue at home.

    Ego intentio parumper perficio fuga , tamen Ego peto a perficio reverto.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    24th July 2013
    Posts
    719
    It'd be interesting (and expensive!) to see if a variety of batteries from each manufacturer have the same construction... or if ones produced in different plants or at different times have different construction... or if for instance Energizer buys up whatever's cheapest this week and slaps its name on 'em.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    27th April 2009
    Location
    Melbourne, Australia
    Posts
    1,379

  13. #13
    Join Date
    31st January 2009
    Posts
    4,524
    Quote Originally Posted by Rich Holmes View Post
    It'd be interesting (and expensive!) to see if a variety of batteries from each manufacturer have the same construction... or if ones produced in different plants or at different times have different construction... or if for instance Energizer buys up whatever's cheapest this week and slaps its name on 'em.
    I suspect that "cheapest this week" tendency wouldn't be as common for the big name brands as it would be for house brands. The simple rule that will cover all bases for rocketry use (reliable under high Gs; capable of high current output) is to use 9V Duracells since they've always been found to have the same construction over time and have those desired characteristics because of that construction. If using electronics initiated recovery methods, why take the chance of losing a rocket that took a good deal of time, effort, and perhaps money to build to save a few bucks on a battery?


Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •