"commissioning" an EX motor.

cwbullet said:

Kevin, I agree. There are those I will accept an ex motor from and those who I will not. I am careful. I have seen folks give away motors and then say they felt would Cato. I prefer not to have that on my conscience. Burn it in the burn pit.

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I don't see how people could do that. Way to much work in a rocket to destroy it. I won't fly my motors until I've had *at least* 3 static tests that I'm comfortable with that have thrust and pressure measurements. I'd never let someone else fly an untested motor.

Edward

JDcluster said:

Team or buddy flying is the only option here.
The OP is not qualified to fly or prep the rocket.

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That would be the plan. I could prep everything but the charges and the motor.

ClayD said:

The flyer of record must be 18 and have a L2 certification for TRA RSC events. So for this specific flyer, he is not even allowed in the pad area at a research launch if he is not yet 18.

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Not true. I will be taking my TMP test next month so I will have access to the pads at any research launch.

Alex

AlphaHybrids said:

Please refrain from mentioning Coors Light in reference to being a beer. It isn't. It might pass as irrigation water for desperate plants.

On the motor route, I actually prefer to make a motor, test it, and have someone else fly. The problem is I make hybrids, not solids. Most people think that is a car. I've flown rockets, enjoy it, but not nearly as much as just making motors. We used to have a stronger research contingent in our clubs before the deregulation of APCP.

Edward

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The tall Coor s Light can use to fit nicely in a LOC 2.6" payload when we were trying to get BeerLoft as a TRA event back in the day.

Kenny

ClayD said:

Well, i agree with most on the list, the EX flyer does not have to make the propellant. In that case the propellant maker does not need to be the flyer of record (or present).

This is becasue kit bash EX motors would require CTI, Loki, or AT to be present, if someone used thier kit to "modify".

Making the propellant is the easy part, cutting the grains, grain geometry, nozzle selection. Is another part of the motor design. I think if a person has characterized a propellant like Blue thunder, and they make a "special motor". it is indeed EX. And just as difficult as those how make special propellants.

So, when the code says, "Motor Maker", it doesnt specificaly say, "propellant mixer".

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For BALLS we require the propellant manufacture to be at the launch.
LDRS this year will be the same.
I do not think mix and match commerial grain motors are considered Research. They do not fit anywhere in the TRA rules.

Mark

MClark said:

For BALLS we require the propellant manufacture to be at the launch.
LDRS this year will be the same.
I do not think mix and match commerial grain motors are considered Research. They do not fit anywhere in the TRA rules.

Mark

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you mean manufacturer? not the actual mixing, right?

I think it's a loophole in the code, as it says motor maker which isn't exactly propellant maker. As is the commonly followed practice that :"thou shal not modifiy a commercial load" under the HPSC, is allowable under the RSC. Back to loopholes i guess? That was running off memory and things ive seen so, not sure, I will have to look into it again.

FWIW I mix my own motors, i did fly a motor my wife made with me without her present, it was a beautiful L motor. But dont tell nobody! hey it was my mixer...

I support the codified team effort, team attendance on motors.

https://www.tripoli.org/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=79KCbI0ADyY=&tabid=86

13. I want to ‘kit-bash’ some commercial motor parts to create a ‘custom’ motor is this allowed at a TRL?
Yes, this is considered a Research motor. However, this is not allowed at non- TRLs since the motor is not certified.

ClayD said:

https://www.tripoli.org/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=79KCbI0ADyY=&tabid=86

13. I want to ‘kit-bash’ some commercial motor parts to create a ‘custom’ motor is this allowed at a TRL?
Yes, this is considered a Research motor. However, this is not allowed at non- TRLs since the motor is not certified.

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They must have change it.

The way we have always done it at BALLS is the propellant manufacture has to be there. We were told the propellant should never leave the possesion of the person who made it to meet the loophole. The mixed commercial grains have DOT shipping papers so some one else can have them other than the manufacture.
The law may be different after the lawsuit but I am not going to be involved with a test case.

Edward,

I may have to stick to your 3 or more static tests. I hate loosing a rocket. I still wonder where my 2 lost rockets over the last 3 years have gone.

A professor said once that "One is an outlier, two is a trend, three is a sample." While not entirely true, 3 tests is my minimum. I generally like to do 5, 3 at nominal conditions, then two at high and lower temperatures.

Edward

It's rocket science; what could go wrong?


JD

JDcluster said:

It's rocket science; what could go wrong?


JD

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It's not rocket science, but rather rocket engineering.

CarVac said:

It's not rocket science, but rather rocket engineering.

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Last time i engineered something it was with a prescribed data set known to be true.

the last time i "made" a rocket motor, it was with the scientific method. I hypothesised where and what with my propellant formula, i tested, collected data, rinsed then repeated. this is known by most as science, as the laws and results, are not wholey defined.

Research is common ground where you use methods known in engineering to work, to test new things with science.

Its Rocket sience engineering.....

It was meant as a joke.


JD

CarVac said:

It's not rocket science, but rather rocket engineering.

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MClark said:

They must have change it.

The way we have always done it at BALLS is the propellant manufacture has to be there. We were told the propellant should never leave the possesion of the person who made it to meet the loophole. The mixed commercial grains have DOT shipping papers so some one else can have them other than the manufacture.
The law may be different after the lawsuit but I am not going to be involved with a test case.

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the propellant being in commerce deffinately has some reprocusions. Likewise, to "commission" somthing places it deffinitavely within commerce as the thread alludes to.

I think TRA's position is that it code controls use of the motor only, and its code stops outside of the flight range. So the manufacture and origin of the propellant under a TRL is an outlier of what TRA wants to assume responsiblity for. Since the manufacuture is outside of TRA's scope in the activity of the launch event.

From your point of directing an event, I can appreciate and respect the expansion of the scope to consider and account that part of the activity. It may have an implication for your launch site.

For the "beer" for propellant side of things, that is just as in commerce as cash sales, as 5,000.00 in beer = 5,000.00 in cash to the IRS. But when anyone knows how to 1099 a pallet of coors, let me know.

MClark said:

And you have to be TRA L-2 or higher.

Mark

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I'm not L2, and I've flown a couple EX motors...the first time it was my rocket, my electronics, and a motor that I helped make. It was taken to the pad by my dad, who is L2 :wink:

I flew a research L at AIRfest under the mentor program, as well...



Braden

I haven't made any propellant in a long time, but in my day, I made a LOT of motors. I probably flew 10% of them myself. I'd email buddies to see if they had
a bird that would handle a particular motor, and they'd bring it to the launch.
As far as testing, once a specific propellant is characterized, it's pretty easy to work up numbers for any size motors. I'm not sure if I followed the
above post on testing 3 motors before flying it... Did you mean each size motor 3 times, or each new propellant 3 times?

Ron

I generally test each motor 3 times. I tend to fly hybrids, so the motors don't have as much variance as a solid. There really isn't a 3 grain or 6 grain hybrid, it is generally something like - 114mm motor 7 pounds nitrous oxide with a specific fuel. I've done some 29mm and 38mm solids for people, and I'll test my 3 grain 29mm/38mm 3 times, and if that is good then I'll test the 4/5/6 grains once each to see how the conform to the predicted data.

Edward