Garmin Astro: Legal?

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+1 on not poking the bear. We have our answers, no point asking again, unless NAR/TRA wants to formally take up the matter. Given the protracted and expensive bout with the BATF, I kinda think they're inclined to let sleeping dogs lie.

The responses that Chuck got were based on common sense. Believe it or not, most regs that the "government" have are. The FAA's job is to regulate the safe use of airspace. In the context of hobby rocketry, ceiling restrictions and ensuring that we don't invade a TCA make sense. They could care less about what kind of radios we use, that's not their job. The rules relating to the use of portable devices (laptops, cellular, MURS, FRS, etc.) aboard passenger aircraft are designed to prevent interference with the instruments, and thus promote flight safety. If there are no instruments (i.e. VFR rules on GA, or hobby rocketry) then there is no issue, which is why they allow the use of cell phones on GA aircraft under VFR with the pilot's permission. It's prohibited on commercial flights because you can't have 400 passengers asking the flight crew for permission to use their cell phones, that would be nuts. Interference with the aircraft's nav system has apparently never been proven, but the FAA is erring on the side of caution, which is a good thing, because you wouldn't be able to tell which of the 400 passengers' devices was causing a problem. On a Cessna, the pilot can just turn around and tell the passengers to turn the damn things off.

The FCC's job is to regulate the use of the radio spectrum. As long as whatever we're doing has no adverse effect on anybody else, and we are using products for their intended purpose as defined by the FCC (i.e. not putting 60' towers on a portable device to boost its range) then they don't care if we put in in a rocket, on a dog, on a falcon, or anything else. As long as you're not violating the spectrum rules (frequency, power, type of antenna, type of modulation, type of transmission, etc.) then it's legal as far as they're concerned. THEIR rule prohibiting cell phones on aircraft [hijack apology...] was to prevent cell towers from being overloaded by 400 cell phones simultaneously switching from one tower to another as the plane moves, and thus interfering with the communication infrastructure. Since hobby rockets basically go straight up, and there is only one device, this is not gonna happen; in fact, you probably would never switch towers unless you drifted a few miles under chute.

You give dittos to not poking the bear, and then bring up cell phones on airplanes!? :surprised:

Just teasing, I've got my private pilot's license and have been flying single-engine planes for about eight years now. I bet there are enough pilots on this board we could really get into this topic too....but let's not. I'll only mention that I'm sure you did not mean to say cell phones are permitted under VFR rules because "there are no instruments." VFR/IFR is a matter of weather of course, you can still be flying VFR with just as much electronic gadgetry going on your dash.

EDIT: come to think of it, that begs the question....oh never mind :wink:
 
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I gave dittos to not asking again. The cell phone was an example of a handheld device that everyone is familiar with.

If your device interferes with your instruments in VFR mode, you got your eyeballs to back it up, so you know that there's an issue and you can do something about it... turn off the device. If the device interferes with your instruments in IFR mode, you may end up outside the TCA, pointed in some untoward direction, or God knows what else. Thus, the prohibition in IFR mode seems to be appropriate based on common sense. Similarly, since hobby rockets have no instruments (or guidance, for that matter) an RF-emitting device is not going to have an effect on its flight path.

You give dittos to not poking the bear, and then bring up cell phones on airplanes!? :surprised:

Just teasing, I've got my private pilot's license and have been flying single-engine planes for about eight years now. I bet there are enough pilots on this board we could really get into this topic too....but let's not. I'll only mention that I'm sure you did not mean to say cell phones are permitted under VFR rules because "there are no instruments." VFR/IFR is a matter of weather of course, you can still be flying VFR with just as much electronic gadgetry going on your dash.

EDIT: come to think of it, that begs the question....oh never mind :wink:
 
I gave dittos to not asking again.

Ah yes, but I think Chuck's comment was actually directed at me :)

The cell phone was an example of a handheld device that everyone is familiar with.

If your device interferes with your instruments in VFR mode, you got your eyeballs to back it up, so you know that there's an issue and you can do something about it... turn off the device. If the device interferes with your instruments in IFR mode, you may end up outside the TCA, pointed in some untoward direction, or God knows what else. Thus, the prohibition in IFR mode seems to be appropriate based on common sense. Similarly, since hobby rockets have no instruments (or guidance, for that matter) an RF-emitting device is not going to have an effect on its flight path.

Sure there's plenty of meat here for another discussion (such as the legality of cell phones in IFR at the pilot's discretion) but I wasn't actually trying to bait one. Your summarization and examples were quite logical. Just a light-hearted comment on my part in a debate that's been heated at times. I'm happy to carry on chatting about airplanes, though probably better suited to another thread in "The Watering Hole."
 
Nothing personal intended. :) I've used my iPhone in small planes before, I kept asking the pilot if everything was OK. He assured me that they do it all the time. Like you said, this might be a good Watering Hole topic, I'm curious about how many hobby rocketeers are pilots too. Quite a few, I would imagine...
 
Cell phones won't harm a plane, but if told not to use one, I will abstain because I respect the pilot's authority. I may not respect his reasoning, but his authority will trump that.
 
Update:

I received several emails from the FCC over the past 6 months. There is a lost conflicting information. I would recommend against the use of Garmins. I own one and will use mine to hunt, but not to hunt rockets.
 
Just throwing in my two cents. Reading this thread reminded my of an old military term, guard house lawyer. Those of you that have served, know what I'm talking about. With that said, I am not a lawyer myself, but my wife is, which makes me a prime candidate for a guard house lawyer myself. My understanding from other ambiguous regulatory infractions in other sectors is that until a court of law rules on a particular application of the regulation, say the use of these devices specifically in model rockets, nothing is final and no party is technically correct. You could call the FCC, but they haven't the authority to interpret their own regulations. You may recall an item in the news recently (past few years) in which the supreme court called on members of congress to clarify their intent in drafting a certain law. They didn't have to, and when it came time for a ruling, they took a position opposite the intent the lawmakers testified to. An actual lawsuit is unlikely, let me restate that, highly unlikely. I think people have to just use their best judgement and remember that no one is right about the issue until a court of law has ruled on the specific issue.
 
My understanding from other ambiguous regulatory infractions in other sectors is that until a court of law rules on a particular application of the regulation, say the use of these devices specifically in model rockets, nothing is final and no party is technically correct.

I'm not necessarily disagreeing with anything else in your post. The waters are murky. However, the FCC is well known for handing out, and making stick, multi-thousand dollar fines for transmitting in violation of their regulations. https://www.popular-communications.com/ is a source for amusement in this regard. It seems like there is a story every month of somebody running their own neighborhood radio station getting shut down with a hefty fine.
 
I didn't read all of the thread, but part 97.15 used to read similar to the reg for Mira in terms of antenna height. And nobody doubted the legality of ham radio in rockets, aircraft, or space. Then again, those areas had language concerning operation.

All in all, I think there are better choices for tracking ones rocket.
 
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