Madcow 4" Patriot on an AeroTech J350W?

Has anyone flown the Madcow 4" Patriot on the Aerotech J350W (38/720 case)? I was wondering what the expected altitude might be with this load? I want to use this rocket for my L1 but thinking maybe L2 as well. probably fly stock with no electronics so deploy would be at appogee.

Thanks,
Mike

Although I have the PML 4" Patriot ,they are more or less the same overall.I`ve flown mine on plenty of CTI Js ,cannot off hand give you exact altitudes ,but it`s fine for 1 and I would expect no problems for level 2 whatsoever.

Madcow kits are fantastic ,and build really nice.


Paul T

Macky said:

Has anyone flown the Madcow 4" Patriot on the Aerotech J350W (38/720 case)? I was wondering what the expected altitude might be with this load? I want to use this rocket for my L1 but thinking maybe L2 as well. probably fly stock with no electronics so deploy would be at appogee.

Thanks,
Mike

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I also have the 4" PML Patriot. Mine sims to 3,900 feet with that motor. Depending on your field, that might be pretty high for apogee deploy even on a calm day.

I was hoping to be under 3000'; sounds like it might be best to use a dual deploy set-up if I chose to use it for my L2? :wink:

Thanks,
Mike

I have a scratch built but the same dimensions and weight... It goes over 4000' on a AT J350.

Although you can certainly fly your Patriot with a J350W for a L2 cert, why?

When you get your L2 on that, you still won't have a rocket you can really fly L2 with. Why not build a true L2 rocket to do your cert on? Something with a 54mm or 75mm MMT and in the 10 - 15 lb range. Then when you get your L2, you'll have something you can fly real L2 with.

Handeman said:

Although you can certainly fly your Patriot with a J350W for a L2 cert, why?

When you get your L2 on that, you still won't have a rocket you can really fly L2 with. Why not build a true L2 rocket to do your cert on? Something with a 54mm or 75mm MMT and in the 10 - 15 lb range. Then when you get your L2, you'll have something you can fly real L2 with.

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Good point, even if use it for my L2 I probably would not fly it regularly on L2 motors especially without electronics and the predicted altitudes i'm seeing around 4000'. I'm sure the 4" Madcow Patriot structurally can handle the forces of L2 motors as they offer a 54mm mmt option but I think now based on the feedback i have got that a better option is to just use it to get my L1.

Thanks all,
Mike

First off, I think it would probably work. I too have the PML Patriot and have flown it several times on J350s. I don't have any nose weight in mine and I often get some coning on the way up. But nothing too bad.

Having said that I would also like to encourage you to make more rockets on your way up the certification ladder. I think each one is a different opportunity for learning and experience. And that is very important. Plus it's more fun!

Whatever you choose to do good luck and enjoy yourself.

cvanc said:

First off, I think it would probably work. I too have the PML Patriot and have flown it several times on J350s. I don't have any nose weight in mine and I often get some coning on the way up. But nothing too bad.

Having said that I would also like to encourage you to make more rockets on your way up the certification ladder. I think each one is a different opportunity for learning and experience. And that is very important. Plus it's more fun!

Whatever you choose to do good luck and enjoy yourself.

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Second that!!!

I would highly recommend building a true L2 rocket to do your L2 cert with. Not only will you learn more while building the L2 bird, you'll have a rocket you can fly L2 motors in regularly.

Not to derail the thread, but can you define "true L2 rocket"?

Thanks to all for your feedback, I truly believe you have to walk before you run in most everything and research is key. I have been into rocketry for a few years and am very interested in obtaining high power certification. my current fleet consists of low and mid-power rockets and for the last year or so I have been reseaching high power kits.The Madcow kits seem very robust and the Patriot rocket is one of my favorites; the first rocket in my fleet was the Estes Patriot and it still flys great!

Mike

DeeRoc29 said:

Not to derail the thread, but can you define "true L2 rocket"?

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I'll have a go... A rocket that you can fly and recover safely at your chosen field on J, K, and L motors.

Macky,

I have to jump in... I think the 4" Patriot will make a fine Level II Rocket. Especially if you have a connection to it... I am really not trying to be argumentative, however the last time I looked, you get a LII with a J Motor. I am confused by the comments above - "true L2"?

If you can safely fly the 4" Patriot and land it on the field where you fly - then it is a very acceptable LII Rocket. I know and have signed off on several LI & LII Certs that were flown with the same rocket. Nothing wrong with that at all!!!

Best of luck with the build and the flight! I can't wait to read of your success!

Todd

Hogan3276 said:

Macky,

I have to jump in... I think the 4" Patriot will make a fine Level II Rocket. Especially if you have a connection to it... I am really not trying to be argumentative, however the last time I looked, you get a LII with a J Motor. I am confused by the comments above - "true L2"?

If you can safely fly the 4" Patriot and land it on the field where you fly - then it is a very acceptable LII Rocket. I know and have signed off on several LI & LII Certs that were flown with the same rocket. Nothing wrong with that at all!!!

Best of luck with the build and the flight! I can't wait to read of your success!

Todd

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Merry Christmas Todd. I don't think anyone disagrees with you (I edited my post after a brief refresher course in ABC's!). As it reads now was my intention.

My interpretation of the comments by others was based on the premise that a rocket flown once on a minimum J, just to accomplish a cert level, but above what most would consider sensible for a field isn't "really" a level 2 rocket, i.e., an intentional deployment at 4k' where I fly would raise eyebrows.

I don't think anyones saying it should be accepted as a level 2 flight... Just that if a rocketeer wants to obtain a Level 2,... it just makes sense to have a rocket that he/she will fly on level 2 motors.

Are we talking about the fiberglass Patroit from MC or the paper kit. I flew my fiberglass single deploy FG Patroit on CTI J reloads many times with no problems.
gp

crossfire said:

Are we talking about the fiberglass Patroit from MC or the paper kit. I flew my fiberglass single deploy FG Patroit on CTI J reloads many times with no problems.
gp

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The 4" Madcow Patriot is a paper kit see spec's below copied from Madcow's web sight:

Length: 52.5”
Diameter 4.0”
Weight: 44oz
Motor Mount: 38mm (Optional 54mm)
Fins: 1/4” Plywood

FYI- They do have a new 5.5" Dia. fiberglass fit that i'm drooling over, it's on my future wish list.

Merry Xmas and Happy Holidays,
Mike

They have a FG one also. I have one. Sorry Mike I just looked a MCs site and the 4"FG is not on there. I wonder why?
gp

crossfire said:

They have a FG one also. I have one. Sorry Mike I just looked a MCs site and the 4"FG is not on there. I wonder why?
gp

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No need for apology, I Have not seen the 4" FG Patriot only 2.6" and 5.5", I believe I found Madcow kits around a year or so ago doing research for high power rocket kits on the internet. Maybe the 4" FG was offered before that? Eitherway it sounds like yours flys well on J motors.

Merry Christmas and Thanks,
Mike

Macky said:

No need for apology, I Have not seen the 4" FG Patriot only 2.6" and 5.5", I believe I found Madcow kits around a year or so ago doing research for high power rocket kits on the internet. Maybe the 4" FG was offered before that? Eitherway it sounds like yours flys well on J motors.

Merry Christmas and Thanks,
Mike

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If you want to, fly it. If you think that 5.5 is on the list, I'd keep the 4" pat for G/H/I flights. I used a Wildman Jr for my L2 cert flight to 6000', and I'll admit I lost more sleep than was warranted over worrying about getting it back. You should learn dual deploy, but probably not learn it on your L2 flight - it's just that much more nerve-wracking!

I think this was my second summer flying the 4"FG Patriot. I will have to ask Mike the next time we talk what happened to the kit.
GP

Macky said:

Has anyone flown the Madcow 4" Patriot on the Aerotech J350W (38/720 case)? I was wondering what the expected altitude might be with this load? I want to use this rocket for my L1 but thinking maybe L2 as well. probably fly stock with no electronics so deploy would be at appogee.

Thanks,
Mike

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Hey Mike,

I have the 4" Madcow Patriot Kit with 54mm mmt... You can access the build thread here: https://www.rocketryforum.com/showthread.php?43643-Madcow-Patriot-Build-Thread

I launched it for the second time Dec 15th on a J275W. Open Rocket predicted 3,575 ft but it reached 3,802 ft. O.R. predicts 3,149 ft on the J350W. Based on previous flights, I'm guessing it would reach 3,300 ft. Keep in mind; I added 2 wraps of fiberglass to the body tubes and 12 ounces of weight to the Nose Cone. Plus, it has an e-bay with redundant electronics. The rocket weighed 8lbs 9oz on the pad.

If you build yours stock without nose weight, I am guessing it will weight 4-5 lbs on the pad. Assuming a straight stable flight, you would easily exceed 4k.

Here's my flight on the J275W...

[video=youtube;TfotVroskH8]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TfotVroskH8[/video]

DeeRoc29 said:

Not to derail the thread, but can you define "true L2 rocket"?

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Most rockets can be flown with motors outside the level they're designed for, but each one has a "sweet spot" for its range of motors. IMHO, that's 1K to 4K for L1, 2K to 6K for L2 and 3K to 8k for L3.

To me, a true L2 rocket can fly with at least J & K motors, or K & L motors, preferrably J, K & L, and most of those motors will keep it in the 2K to 6K range. That means a 54mm MMT at a minimum.

IMHO, if the rocket has a 38mm MMT and a J is as big as you can fit, to me, that's a L1 rocket, not a L2. That doesn't mean you can't do a L2 cert with it. Any J motor flight is a L2 flight.

Handeman said:

Most rockets can be flown with motors outside the level they're designed for, but each one has a "sweet spot" for its range of motors. IMHO, that's 1K to 4K for L1, 2K to 6K for L2 and 3K to 8k for L3.

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So Tfish or Burner or Butalane's N flights to 30-60kft aren't "true Level 3 flights" because they go more than 8,000'?

Your East Coast is showing

daveyfire said:

So Tfish or Burner or Butalane's N flights to 30-60kft aren't "true Level 3 flights" because they go more than 8,000'?

Your East Coast is showing

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I flew to 9k on an I motor. Does that make it a “true" level 4?

gdjsky01 said:

listen... build the #&^@$* thing, shove a motor in it, and FLY IT.

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:clap:

My vote -- if it fits and flies and survives and you get it back, it's a "true Level X" rocket. Shove in the J350W and let 'er rip. If that works, try a J420R or a CTI J290WH or any of the myriad of 5G/6G/6GXL 38mm J options. Aerotech J510W or CTI J530IM would be insane. Tons of fun to be had here.

daveyfire said:

So Tfish or Burner or Butalane's N flights to 30-60kft aren't "true Level 3 flights" because they go more than 8,000'?

Your East Coast is showing

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Absolutely the East Coast is showing. Highest waiver I ever flew with was LDRS in New York.

Those altitudes are not what determines the level, that is just what most of those levels reach on the EAST COAST.

The point is that a 38mm rocket that can take a baby J isn't what I call a L2 rocket, even if it can hit 15K. To me that's just a well built, overpowered L1 rocket. You can certainly get a L2 cert with it, but after that, you still have to build something else if you want to fly K or L motors.

daveyfire said:

:clap:

My vote -- if it fits and flies and survives and you get it back, it's a "true Level X" rocket. Shove in the J350W and let 'er rip. If that works, try a J420R or a CTI J290WH or any of the myriad of 5G/6G/6GXL 38mm J options. Aerotech J510W or CTI J530IM would be insane. Tons of fun to be had here.

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I like "If it fits, it flies... " There are several people here that fit that moniker... :wink: :dark: