Rocket Launches where rockets flew over or recovered over specators - past year?

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How many launches past year have you attended w/rockets flew/recovered over/in crowd?

  • 0

  • 1-3

  • 4-6

  • 7-9

  • 10+

  • I have not attended any launches this past year.


Results are only viewable after voting.
I had a MPR rocket land on a tent at NARAM this past summer under parachute. It weathercocked more than I expected. The launch pads had no means to angle them, except for wood blocks under the feet which I didn't know about until after the fact. As a newb I just figured they were set up properly, but people were stealing blocks from other pads to prop up their pads, not returning them, etc., so my pad may have been angled slightly into the wind and I just didn't notice.
 
I'll confess, this poll has me scratching my head, wondering exactly what the objective is, beyond possibly embarassing one, or both, of the national organizations?

Think about it. You're asking people to publicly document potential safety issues, making them public record, and providing documentation that could quite seriously potentially bite one of the organizations in the posterior in the future.

If you have concerns, fine. Express them to the respective organization.

But putting it out publicly, where it'll get grabbed by other sites, and archived for all posterity....imagine if one of the organizations has their insurance up for review, and the insurance company happens to catch wind of it. What do you realistically think is going to happen to the insurance premiums?

-Kevin (who won't be voting in this poll)

I just don't get this "ignore the problem and it'll go away" mindset... it just boggles the mind... you can't solve a problem that needs addressing by ignoring it. Yet, from what I've seen, it's a particularly pernicious and typical attitude, one I've seen especially from HPR fliers, who should be the MOST conscious about safety issues and addressing them quickly... (before they "bite someone in the butt"...) Again, I'm speaking from personal experience, YMMV...

We had some similar issues in the LPR only launches occurring on our farms... In fact the club had quite a brou-ha-ha after a former president of the now defunct Challenger 498 made a huge issue out of a Scissor Wing Transport that flew a somewhat low parabolic trajectory, ejected it's power pod on the way down, and entered a steep and fast semicircling dive that put it landing fast but level behind the cars/prep/spectator area... whereupon he had a typical "kneejerk reaction" and demanded in all future launches, the rods were "NOT allowed to be tilted WHATSOEVER". Needless to say this went over like a fart in a diving helmet...
After his cursing streak in front of the club members and their kids, and subsequently again on the club's discussion board group, read by many of the kids, he was removed and the club "reorganized"... (not that it lasted much longer anyway, mostly due to his kind of antics by similar minded folks).

At any rate, I could see that it COULD be a safety issue, and after doing a little research, I figured out probably the most realistic solution-- place the flight line parallel to the prevailing wind direction at the time the launch was set up. IOW, with the pads and prep/parking areas located in such a way that facing the pads from the vehicles, the wind would be blowing from either ones right or left side... NOT in one's face or at one's back. This would cause the rockets to weathercock over the other pads, not over the vehicles and spectators. The rods could be tilted as appropriate for the conditions, and usually tilted a bit AWAY from the flight line so that any non-deploys would be upwind and landing out BEHIND the flightline. Normal deployments would descend under chute or streamer back down parallel to the flightline, landing past the pads downwind in the pasture. I drew up some maps using printouts from Google Earth, drew in the appropriate setups for the TYPICAL prevailing wind conditions, and then scanned them back in and sent them to the club officers...

This required a slight change of mindset... instead of setting up the flightline aligned with the road or the fencelines or other "landmarks", instead the flightline was established parallel to the wind conditions AT THE TIME THE FLIGHTLINE WAS SET UP... so it would be at a "crazy angle" across the field, but much safer from a standpoint of overflights. The hardest part of the process was simply to get people to understand what the purpose was, that it made things safer, that it wasn't hard to do, and that it was worth the effort. Does it make things perfect?? Of course not... as I answered in the poll, we still have occassional flights that go over the prep/parking area, especially gliders, but then NO solution is 100% effective while still providing a practical flight path (IOW, tilting the rods hard over to the maximum deflection away from the flight line would probably ensure that NO rockets or gliders overflew the flight line, but it would also ensure probably near 100% of the rockets would be recovered half a mile away at best or completely lost, IOW, not a viable solution.) All in all, it's a practical solution (aligning the flight line parallel to the wind) that MINIMIZES the risks from overflights while minimally impacting the actual flight dynamics and recovery distances...

Is there now zero risk?? NO, again, NO system is perfect, and every time a rocket is flown, there is a slight risk that something will go wrong, regardless of size/power. BUT, there is a principle in play called the GOOD FAITH EFFORT... IOW, making every reasonable and prudent measure possible to prevent any unforeseen problem from creating damage or injury... this is a method that has minimal impacts on the actual flights, yet enhances safety-- it's IRRESPONSIBLE NOT TO do things that enhance safety with little/no cost to the actual progress of operations... IF something happened and it came down to litigation, having made a demonstrable "good faith effort" to avoid the situation does help; it demonstrates one was actively trying to avoid the situation and put due care and concern towards that end, even if the solution was imperfect...

It's also IRRESPONSIBLE to REFUSE TO DISCUSS OR ADDRESS potential safety problems and their solutions... but then, like I said, it seems to be the modus operandi of lots of folks... bury your head in the sand, deny everything, and hope nothing happens... and as I've said before, "NO HARM, NO FOUL" is NOT a valid safety program...

Later! OL JR :)
 
Roger - I think you are correct that the vast majority of the time this is corrected or it's a fluke shift in upper winds no one knew about until it happened. My follow up is going to be to ask people to contact me with details about how the situation was handled and if the RSO noticed the problem or if others had to ask for it to be addressed.

This is true... the range can be set up correctly for the wind direction and conditions present AT THE TIME OF SETUP, and then have the wind direction change a few hours later in the midst of launches to create an overflight problem. That's where looking at forecasts can help, but it's not a 100% avoidable or predictable situation either, and asking everyone to pull up stakes for a total flightline realignment isn't particularly practical or feasible either...

Probably just best to "do the best you can" and then respond to conditions as they unfold... after all, one could set up the range based on a weather prediction for later in the day that then subsequently DOES NOT HAPPEN, or arrives late, and be in a non-optimal condition creating more problems than one would experience had they simply set up for the existing conditions... I've seen that too...

Later! OL JR :)
 
Just to be clear, the NAR safety code is a one page summary of key safety practices, all of which are covered in detail in NFPA 1127. Following the safety code is a requirement for NAR launches (and insurance!) but following NFPA is also a requirement in most states.

The relevant NFPA 1127 language (for HPR) is this:

4.17 Launch Operations.
4.17.1 No person shall ignite and launch a high power rocket
horizontally, at a target, or so that the rocket’s flight path during
ascent phase is intended to go into clouds, directly over
the heads of spectators, or beyond the boundaries of the
launch site, or so that the rocket’s recovery is likely to occur in
spectator areas or outside the boundaries of the launch site.


For model rockets, while it's not by any means best practice, it is not specifically covered in NFPA 1122, although there is a requirement to to comply with FAR 101:

§ 101.23 General operating limitations.
(a) You must operate an amateur rocket in such a manner that it:
...
(4) Does not create a hazard to persons, property, or other aircraft.


The committee deliberated a long time over the specific 1127 language. Our goal was to recognize "intent" (and forbid deliberate attempts), as well as "likelihood" (and thus, for example, not ding flier for random acts of bad luck, but to make people take action if something is making it "likely" that a launch would result in a recovery in a proscribed area--like, three rockets in a row just landed there, and you're going to launch a fourth without changing anything?)
 
I had a MPR rocket land on a tent at NARAM this past summer under parachute. It weathercocked more than I expected. The launch pads had no means to angle them, except for wood blocks under the feet which I didn't know about until after the fact. As a newb I just figured they were set up properly, but people were stealing blocks from other pads to prop up their pads, not returning them, etc., so my pad may have been angled slightly into the wind and I just didn't notice.

Interesting... that's a potential safety code violation right there... and at a national launch... tisk, tisk, tisk...

Launch rods are supposed to be designed so they can be tilted into the wind (usually) at up to 30 degrees of vertical... "propping up the pad with wood blocks" doesn't create any kind of "limit" (such as those built in to many pad rod tilt devices) to stop the rod from being tilted beyond 30 degrees of vertical. Not saying it CAN'T work, because it can and does-- BUT it requires knowledge and the willingness to follow the rules without constant supervision on the part of all flyers when using such a system. Hardly and ensurable situation with flyers coming in from all over... with differing safety consciousness and habits and attitudes.

I was at a national sport launch where a LPR/MPR rocket bounced off the tent we were standing under (my nephews and I) conversing with Jim Flis... the rocket slid down the tent canopy straight into the trash can not three feet from Jim and I, which was fortuitously placed right under the edge of the tent canopy... talk about a million to one shot... Thank goodness it was a fairly small rocket with a blunt nose or I could have gotten pile-drived by it right there (or one of my nephews, or Jim... )

So, yeah, this is something that SHOULD be looked at and addressed, BEFORE a problem happens... ESPECIALLY with large rockets and highly attended launches, BOTH of which increase the risks of damage or injury SUBSTANTIALLY...

Someone else mentioned "tilting the rods causing more problems than they solve"... this seems to demonstrate to me a shocking lack of knowledge of the purpose and effects of various tilts of the launch rod for various wind conditions...

Later! OL JR :)
 
Just to be clear, the NAR safety code is a one page summary of key safety practices, all of which are covered in detail in NFPA 1127.
Not trying to start an argument, but if this is truly the case, it would be nice if the safety code said so directly. As is, the only reference it makes to NFPA 1127 is "When conducting a simultaneous launch of more than one high power rocket I will observe the additional requirements of NFPA 1127."

Unfortunately AFAIK it's not possible to get a copy of NFPA 1127 without paying for it or at least registering on the NFPA website, which makes it pretty difficult to comply with it IMHO.
 
It has been my experience that the flight/ recovery into the crowd phenomenon is nearly exclusive to low and mid power flights. I belong to Tripoli, a high power rocketry club and recognize the need for allowing low power flights to continue to expand the hobby and provide fresh membership thereby increasing the viability of the club. I do however prefer the research days when the kids and wannabees are refused participation. I prefer to fly with seasoned fliers who have demonstrated their skills. I quickly tire of the contant "heads up" shouts during 1/4a wizard flights or when some old duffer wants to crank his Estes SaturnV on a D-12 for that slow realistic liftoff to 87 feet. I know this attitude is unpopular with many on the forum but, since I rarely come here for reliable info, I won't hear you all lambaste me for my insensitivites. You are all correct and everybody elese is wrong. Now commence shouting into the ether, I'll be laying up some 3" carbon fiber motor mounts.
 
Gee, thanks for clearing up what Tripoli is, my little LPR/MPR mind has been wondering about that for ages.
 
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Launch fever. Very contagious. Causes otherwise rational people to throw caution to the wind, literally. The bigger the rockets and the bigger the event, the more intense the fever becomes. And the longer the interval between launches the greater the impetus for high fever.

The names and events have been omitted to protect the guilty. Is this a great hobby or what?
 
I've seen bad decisions from NAR folks, I've seen bad decisions from Tripoli folks. I've seen downright stupid behavior from all parts of the hobby.

I've never understood the need to look down on one part of the hobby, regardless of who you are and what you fly.

Elitist/snobby attitudes about any aspect of the organized hobby are counter-productive and totally unnecessary.

-Kevin
 
I've seen bad decisions from NAR folks, I've seen bad decisions from Tripoli folks. I've seen downright stupid behavior from all parts of the hobby.

I've never understood the need to look down on one part of the hobby, regardless of who you are and what you fly.

Elitist/snobby attitudes about any aspect of the organized hobby are counter-productive and totally unnecessary.

-Kevin


I was going to post about this tolerance myself but Trip seems to have done a good job for all of us and Kevin your on target as well. My own local club gets excited over 1/4A all the way up to K motors in the same NAR launch. We're TRA affiliated but run our range using NAR for esoteric reasons unrelated to this thread. The whole club tends to be a little nuts in aggregate about rockets and we're suckers for kids launching as well as for big kids launching!

As for anyone upset about 1/4A heads up; don't fly on those days or form your own club with minimum power requirements for launches. It's pretty simple to see that most of the clubs like LPR as well as MPR and HPR so it's a bit hard to imagine finding much sympathy here or anywhere really but in the spirit of tolerance I say - you have the right to enjoy the hobby too - just find venues that make it easier and don't whine about it to those uninterested in hearing it.
 
We routinely fly at the <location redacted>. It is truly a pleasure to fly with <club redacted>, since they are amazingly safety conscious and skilled. And, near the end of summer, we have a great time at <event redacted>.

What all these events have in common, is the density of high-altitude launches. The sheer altitude makes it a certainty that occasionally portions of flights and recoveries will occur over the participants and vehicles and RVs, despite almost triple (or more) launch pad distances than are required. And the flight line is set up parallel to the prevailing winds.

Nobody has us sign a piece of paper that indicates we acknowledge that stuff can fall from the sky on us, but, everyone that attends these particular events seems to understand that it can happen and is willing to acceccpt the risk. This, of course, will have no weight in the hands of an attorney...

No answers here. Just ruminating on the difficulty of bringing the chances of an overflight to zero, so to speak.


All the best, James
 
It has been my experience that the flight/ recovery into the crowd phenomenon is nearly exclusive to low and mid power flights. I belong to Tripoli, a high power rocketry club and recognize the need for allowing low power flights to continue to expand the hobby and provide fresh membership thereby increasing the viability of the club. I do however prefer the research days when the kids and wannabees are refused participation. I prefer to fly with seasoned fliers who have demonstrated their skills. I quickly tire of the contant "heads up" shouts during 1/4a wizard flights or when some old duffer wants to crank his Estes SaturnV on a D-12 for that slow realistic liftoff to 87 feet. I know this attitude is unpopular with many on the forum but, since I rarely come here for reliable info, I won't hear you all lambaste me for my insensitivites. You are all correct and everybody elese is wrong. Now commence shouting into the ether, I'll be laying up some 3" carbon fiber motor mounts.

This is exactly the attitude that turns people away from a hobby they might otherwise enjoy. I've seen it happen too many times in other hobbies. Someone shows up at the RC field with an inexpensive plane they got as a gift and instead of getting help they get told what a cheap piece of junk it is and that it isn't welcome there - they leave and are never seen again. Or a young family comes to a public star party, one of the young children reaches to touch an unattended scope and they hear "DON'T TOUCH THE F------ SCOPE!!" yelled from 50 feet away - they turn away, take their now crying child to the car and leave. In both cases there was the opportunity for outreach that could lead to a lifelong devotion to the hobby rather than being turned off. Elitist attitudes have the power to make any hobby look bad.

FYI even though I am and plan to remain a primarily LPR/MPR flyer I do plan to join Tripoli. The only club i have easy access to (unless I want to drive several hours, that is) is a Tripoli prefecture. Oddly enough every time I go there tend to be far more LPR/MPR launches than HPR - and everyone there seems to have a blast watching them all. I haven't heard a single derogatory comment about anything launched, be it 1/2A or K or anything in between (or smaller or larger for that matter). If being free of those of us who enjoy smaller rockets is so important to you then by all means feel free to stay away because for darned sure I'll be launching what I want to launch, not what you feel is appropriate for me to launch in your august presence.

Thank God for an ignore list.
 
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It has been my experience that the flight/ recovery into the crowd phenomenon is nearly exclusive to low and mid power flights. I belong to Tripoli, a high power rocketry club and recognize the need for allowing low power flights to continue to expand the hobby and provide fresh membership thereby increasing the viability of the club. I do however prefer the research days when the kids and wannabees are refused participation. I prefer to fly with seasoned fliers who have demonstrated their skills. I quickly tire of the contant "heads up" shouts during 1/4a wizard flights or when some old duffer wants to crank his Estes SaturnV on a D-12 for that slow realistic liftoff to 87 feet. I know this attitude is unpopular with many on the forum but, since I rarely come here for reliable info, I won't hear you all lambaste me for my insensitivites. You are all correct and everybody elese is wrong. Now commence shouting into the ether, I'll be laying up some 3" carbon fiber motor mounts.
Wow. Just wow.


This is exactly the attitude that turns people away from a hobby they might otherwise enjoy. I've seen it happen too many times in other hobbies. Someone shows up at the RC field with an inexpensive plane they got as a gift and instead of getting help they get told what a cheap piece of junk it is and that it isn't welcome there - they leave and are never seen again. Or a young family comes to a public star party, one of the young children reaches to touch an unattended scope and they hear "DON'T TOUCH THE F------ SCOPE!!" yelled from 50 feet away - they turn away, take their now crying child to the car and leave. In both cases there was the opportunity for outreach that could lead to a lifelong devotion to the hobby rather than being turned off. Elitist attitudes have the power to make any hobby look bad.

FYI even though I am and plan to remain a primarily LPR/MPR flyer I do plan to join Tripoli. The only club i have easy access to (unless I want to drive several hours, that is) is a Tripoli prefecture. Oddly enough every time I go there tend to be far more LPR/MPR launches than HPR - and everyone there seems to have a blast watching them all. I haven't heard a single derogatory comment about anything launched, be it 1/2A or K or anything in between (or smaller or larger for that matter). If being free of those of us who enjoy smaller rockets is so important to you then by all means feel free to stay away because for darned sure I'll be launching what I want to launch, not what you feel is appropriate for me to launch in your august presence.

Thank God for an ignore list.

Thank you! You saved me a great deal of typing.
 
I think it is important to remember that tolerance cuts both ways folks. If someone doesn't want to see or be around a bunch of LPR's they are welcome to feel that way. I do think that many here would rise up and riot if there was a movement towards that attitude in any of the national clubs. I don't think it's inappropriate for a local club to setup rules like "nothing under K" for specific launches. Isn't BALLS like that?

Man... I'm derailing my own thread. LOL...
 
dont talk to me about rockets into spectator areas I own the green van that had the upclose and personal meeting with the Fat Boy but its all good
 
See what I mean. Lotta people here are real quick to get a red ass if somebody doesn't tow the whole "we are all the same and of equal value... blah, blah, blah." I said that most of the time people are dodging the little rockets as they careen into the crowd or parking areas. My point is, in all my years of flying, it is quite rare to see a high power bird that doesn't fly straight and true and recover downrange. I still go to nearly every launch, give out estes motors to the cub scouts and spend hours helping noobies with getting their birds prepped for rso. People throughout the club know that they can ask me for anything and shall receive what I can give, everytime, often to my own detriment. Unfortunately this hobby, and this forum, is filled with self important people with short fuses and long opinions. Your false outrage over the simple expression of an opinion is an indication of failed character development somewhere along the way.
 
"Can't we all just get along?" - Rodney King :)



See what I mean. Lotta people here are real quick to get a red ass if somebody doesn't tow the whole "we are all the same and of equal value... blah, blah, blah." I said that most of the time people are dodging the little rockets as they careen into the crowd or parking areas. My point is, in all my years of flying, it is quite rare to see a high power bird that doesn't fly straight and true and recover downrange. I still go to nearly every launch, give out estes motors to the cub scouts and spend hours helping noobies with getting their birds prepped for rso. People throughout the club know that they can ask me for anything and shall receive what I can give, everytime, often to my own detriment. Unfortunately this hobby, and this forum, is filled with self important people with short fuses and long opinions. Your false outrage over the simple expression of an opinion is an indication of failed character development somewhere along the way.
 
Not trying to start an argument, but if this is truly the case, it would be nice if the safety code said so directly. As is, the only reference it makes to NFPA 1127 is "When conducting a simultaneous launch of more than one high power rocket I will observe the additional requirements of NFPA 1127."

Unfortunately AFAIK it's not possible to get a copy of NFPA 1127 without paying for it or at least registering on the NFPA website, which makes it pretty difficult to comply with it IMHO.

That is because they are an association of people who provide a buisness of selling standards. they are smart enough to get authorities to use thier standards, so others have to "Pay" to get the standard.

The faultering of 1127, is that this association deems its standard a proprietary infromation.

for Tripoli and Nar standards, it just just mean that we "meet or exceed" this standard, or "knowingly" move beyond it.

For local promugulation, if you must comply with 1127, the laws must be made public record, and thus firemarshal, or legislature will have to provide you with the necessary documents. They typicaly cannot force you to join an association, when you are not engaged in interstate commerce.(IE pay NFPA for thier standards.)
 
everyone has seen a rocket kill something but its all part of the hobby , when i started my new job 5 yrs ago they had everyone do a 5 min speech about themselves , i took a 1/2 hr on my hobby of rocketry and showed the video Flaming Rockets and wowed them all. like i said before its all good and everyone has fun
 
A couple of years ago I designed a rocket arresting shade canopy.
 
dont talk to me about rockets into spectator areas I own the green van that had the upclose and personal meeting with the Fat Boy but its all good

Are you referring to that MONSTER FatBoy I saw long ago on America's Funniest Home Video's? I remember it hitting a van but I don't recall the color. That thing was something!
 
no the rocket was a friend of mine and Ill have to dig up some of the pics of the roof that the fin ripped a 3 ft slice in it dont ask about $$$ insurance covered it. it was pretty high with roof replacement and all the other things that were damaged , it was funny trying to explain to the dodge dealership what really happened because they had never seen damage like that :wink:
 
Hmmm... strange direction this thread has gone.... I've had a large rocket land on my easy up, I've had some of my rockets drift over the spectator area. In each case, it was not intended, and precautions were in place, but it happens. It will be impossible to completely eliminate the possibility, but I can see how taking precautionary measures could possibly reduce the chances.

But some of the nasty remarks here, geeze people.......
 
See what I mean. Lotta people here are real quick to get a red ass if somebody doesn't tow the whole "we are all the same and of equal value... blah, blah, blah."
And what, exactly, do you mean to insinuate? That you are of greater value than those who either do not choose or cannot afford to fly rockets as large as yours? I seriously doubt that that was your intention, but it is definitely a viable interpretation of your post.


I still go to nearly every launch, give out estes motors to the cub scouts and spend hours helping noobies with getting their birds prepped for rso. People throughout the club know that they can ask me for anything and shall receive what I can give, everytime, often to my own detriment.
Well then, I applaud your generosity, which seems to me to be entirely contradictory to the attitude which you have previously conveyed. Never having encountered you in person and knowing nothing about you except what you yourself have posted on the Internet, I am certainly in no position to pass judgement on the quality of your character, and that I readily admit.

Unfortunately this hobby, and this forum, is filled with self important people with short fuses and long opinions.
Well, I'm beginning to believe that... :wink:

Your false outrage over the simple expression of an opinion is an indication of failed character development somewhere along the way.
Virtually any opinion, no matter how absurd or offensive it may be in the opinions of others, can be expressed simply, and simplicity of expression does not mitigate the opinion itself. As far as I could tell no one was outraged, but I'd say that you did manage to offend at least few people here with what came across as a dismissive, cavalier attitude.
 
The harsh reality is that the only way to entirely prevent rockets from landing in a spectator area, or flying over it, is to not fly them at all. We cannot control things 100%.

That said, there are things that can be done to mitigate risk, including adjusting launch angles, based on the wind speed and direction, as well as adjusting motor selections, and not flying with low thrust:weight ratios when it gets windy. Using increased safety distances can sometimes help, as well.

I will admit, one of my biggest beefs in terms of "normal" conditions is how close the safety codes allow people to be to model rockets -- 15/30 feet (Less than 30Ns, lmore than 30Ns) is just too close at a large launch. When it's just a couple people, and they're paying attention to what's going on? Sure. But at a large launch, that's too close to provide time to react, when something goes wrong -- low power, to me, needs to be at least 50 feet out, if not 100, to allow reaction time.

I'm also a big believer in moving new/unproven/unusual designs further out for high power, as well. You can never move a rocket out too far, but you can have it too close.

-Kevin
 
I will admit, one of my biggest beefs in terms of "normal" conditions is how close the safety codes allow people to be to model rockets -- 15/30 feet (Less than 30Ns, lmore than 30Ns) is just too close at a large launch. When it's just a couple people, and they're paying attention to what's going on? Sure. But at a large launch, that's too close to provide time to react, when something goes wrong -- low power, to me, needs to be at least 50 feet out, if not 100, to allow reaction time.
-Kevin
I am sorry Kevin in advance...

But, please do tell how the increase in number of people decreases an individuals reaction time to move out of a moving rockets path.

I would believe, there would be no Drt, only Dpayingattention....

This would be indicative to any rocket activity as pertains to large launches, not the physics changing. Ballistic re-entry, cato's, shred's.... Not just a MR coming back over the flight line.

My opinion is the criticism of the large launches would do more for the hobby, than the "beefs" within their activities. Having been nearly given the cheese touch from a few re-entrys, and having my own "WTH" moments, i realize.... theres no 100% . By attending, i am increasing my risks on two fronts, the acceptance of what others are doing, and the risk of what i am doing. This has really really, put a downer on my "want" to even go. After all, who wants to cringe for 100 seconds wondering (where is that P motor forward closure) or where is all that debris landing from that 5 rocket cato failure of a drag race. By in large the larger launches have much more risk going on than just some teeny MR's that only affect a 100' radius at best. The current trends are damning to the hobby.
 
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