HPR noob trying to get a handle on dual deployment.

I'm seeing lots of mentions of the Adept22 as a great starter DD:

https://www.adeptrocketry.com/ADEPT22ds.htm

Your minimum list can be reduced by one ematch and one powder charge by using motor ejection for the drogue and the altimeter for the main. My first DD was with a Perfectflight Strattologger altimeter and wouldn't hesitate to recommend it. Super easy to use, set up and operate. As far as the charge containers go, there is a whole host of options ranging from home made charge wells to the fancy machined Blastcaps. My next DD rework is going to be the latex tube method where the charge is contained by zip ties inside a short section of surgical tubing, again there is many ways of doing this. I use GOEX black powder as do most of the fliers I have seen. DD is fun but a little nerve wracking as there is a lot more points of potential failure. The set up time is a lot longer as well but well worth it. I was butt pucker factor X10 on my first DD flight. Relying on a little computer to bring your trusted prize safely down takes some trust, now it's second nature.

I'm not really the authority to speak here, as I have my own questions about some of the finer points, but here's some of what I've picked up here and in the field:

If all you want is a dual deployment, and inexpensive/no-frills is the word of the day, https://adeptrocketry.com/ADEPT22go.htm#DDC22 has a $30 dual deploy board
e-matches are BATFE regulated, but quest Q2G2s will work just fine. Cheap, easy to obtain, and reliable.
Black powder is preferred. FFFFg will be the most common in gun stores. FF, FFg, FFF, FFFg, and FFFF will also work. The "g" means it's graphite coated. Can't remember the advantage, but it's better for use in actual firearms. Pyro guys prefer the straight stuff. Oh, and you probably won't run across FF/FFg -it's cannon powder and coarser, meant for larger charges. It's also most commonly used to lift fireworks shells.

I didn't know all of the options for DD altimeters when I started just a couple of years ago, and there's some crazy expensive stuff out there, so I bought a Parrot, and eventually upgraded to a Raven (featherweightaltimeters.com). Adrian is a frequent contributor here and at the old Rocketry Planet (when he's not in the middle of moving), an altitude nut, and an all around good guy. Raven's are neat because you get gobs of data to sift through and 4 (count 'em) 4 fully programmable high current outputs. That means that they can do up to 4 deploy events, or any combo of staging, airstart, deploy, and other event - including turning on a transmitter or buzzer and keeping it on until you turn it off or it runs out of battery.

Anything will work to "contain" black powder, but you should make sure that whatever you use you don't mind having embedded in your flesh in the event of a failure. Being an old pyro guy, PVC is as much of a no-no as glass, but most in rocketry use PVC cups all the time. I use masking tape - lay out a 2" x 2" piece on the digital scale, add BP until you get the charge size you need, then put the igniter on top and fold in the corners (modified burrito-roll technique). I usually add a second wrap of tape to make sure nothing leaks out.

Using a 3" AV bay for your first time is a good idea. I started with a 29mm min. diameter Blackhawk DD. Sonofab.tch that was hard (it was before Adrian made the super-elegant bays he now sells). I've got one that does a modified DD (engine @ apogee, altimeter at set height) in a streched Estes Eliminator (BT-56) with the electronics in the nosecone. My L2 was a DD with an audible buzzer I wired into a WildmanJr DD, which is a 2.1" kit. It seems like a lot of space until I actually had to make everything fit.

My lesson learned I will impart: use stranded wire for all of your interconnects. I used solid 24ga (might have been 22), and I found that with the bend radii necessary to make things fit I had some component connection solder joints fail while working due to bending stresses.

If you get one of those cool "Remove Before Flight" tags, here's a neat (and easy) way to make a switch to turn on/off the electronics: https://www.perfectflite.com/StratoLogger manual.pdf look on page 13. Just wire it between your battery + wire and your altimeter. Again: my suggestion is to wrap kevlar thread around the tube to old it to the switch, then put a light coat of epoxy over that to hold it in place. I had my Avionics roll off onto the floor with the pin in it and it broke the tube away from the switch.

I like my Strattologgers. I just ordered Adept22s, but have not tried them.

I like the J-Tek ematches (local vendor?). You can also use Quest Q2G2s (no LEUP required to store).

I hot glue the ematch in a plastic tube prior to adding BP. Then measure on the field and fill empty space with wadding and tape shut to prevent leaks. Any tube used to keep the charge pointed up from the bulkhead plate will work. I had several failure with cardbaord due to sidewall blowout because of not using these. Copper tube / PVC / Old Estes casings/ bullet brass / Blast Cap Products all work.

If you have room put the battery on the oposite side of the altimeter, do so. If it comes loose in a crash, it is less likely to destroy your electronics.

Oh, and no matter what altitude you set your main to open at, you will begin to chant "please open, please open, please open" about 400 feet before it's supposed to, and the rocket will appear to fall significantly past that preset point. Your first successful DD flight will feel like a huge accomplishment, and likely result in a serious fist pump. It will likely be the case for the next few as well. :grin:

I'd recommend the PerfectFlite MAWD. Reasonably priced, easy to set up, and useful data.
J-Tek ematches from your field vendor or Quest Q2G2s for ematches.
I like using PVC caps screwed to the bulkheads. Just pour in your powder, insert the head of the ematch, fill the rest with dog barf, tape over with masking tape and make your electrical connections. The cap has the benefit of directing the charge towards the laundry, rather than the walls of the airframe. Think "shaped charge".

Once you've tested it on the ground, you'll grow to trust it more than built-in delays and ejection charges. It's reassuring to have it always "pop at the top".
-Ken

If you ever want a better altimeter in the future, get it now.

I greatly recommend the Raven: though it's "complicated" to set up, using checkboxes on a computer is far less infuriating than counting flashes and pushing buttons. Plus you have large amounts of flexibility.

For a charge holder, I used blue tape around a Q2G2, and an Archetype Rocketry cable cutter.

Or.... ya can follow along with my 3 in DS build. It will be my most complete to date with Av-bay construction, size & how to on charges, shock cord lengths', chute size, etc.

I may build the fincan a bit different than most[probably minimum dia.] but the rest will be same for any 3in DS.

It will start sometime next week after final vote tally.


But yes the Adept 22 [40.00]or for a bit more, much easier to hook up Stratologger[68.00] are perfect for first time DD users.

I will be using one of the above, and a MissleWorks new RRC3!

blackjack2564 said:

Or.... ya can follow along with my 3 in DS build. It will be my most complete to date with Av-bay construction, size & how to on charges, shock cord lengths', chute size, etc.

I may build the fincan a bit different than most[probably minimum dia.] but the rest will be same for any 3in DS.

It will start sometime next week after final vote tally.

Click to expand...

Trust me, I will be following that thread VERY closely.

blackjack2564 said:

...and a MissleWorks new RRC3!

Click to expand...

Yeah! :clap:

blackjack2564 said:

I will be using one of the above, and a MissleWorks new RRC3!

Click to expand...

I guess I understand redundancy, but what about this add on for the Adept22:
https://www.adeptrocketry.com/ADEPT22go.htm#DDC22

JordanT said:

Oh, and no matter what altitude you set your main to open at, you will begin to chant "please open, please open, please open" about 400 feet before it's supposed to, and the rocket will appear to fall significantly past that preset point. Your first successful DD flight will feel like a huge accomplishment, and likely result in a serious fist pump. It will likely be the case for the next few as well. :grin:

Click to expand...

I've already done that a few times and it wasn't even my rocket LOL

JordanT said:

Black powder is preferred. FFFFg will be the most common in gun stores. FF, FFg, FFF, FFFg, and FFFF will also work. The "g" means it's graphite coated. Can't remember the advantage, but it's better for use in actual firearms. Pyro guys prefer the straight stuff. Oh, and you probably won't run across FF/FFg -it's cannon powder and coarser, meant for larger charges. It's also most commonly used to lift fireworks shells.

Click to expand...

I just visited one of the local huge sportsmans stores here in town. They carry a good 2000' of reload supplies, but the only black powder they have comes in FFG and FFFG type with and without sulphur. There is no FFFF or FFFFG. I have a Cabella's, Scheels and gun shops I can still try though

Green Jello said:

I just visited one of the local huge sportsmans stores here in town. They carry a good 2000' of reload supplies, but the only black powder they have comes in FFG and FFFG type with and without sulphur. There is no FFFF or FFFFG. I have a Cabella's, Scheels and gun shops I can still try though

Click to expand...

FFFg is fine.

Green Jello said:

I guess I understand redundancy, but what about this add on for the Adept22:
https://www.adeptrocketry.com/ADEPT22go.htm#DDC22

Normally I only use 1 altimeter in a rocket this size, but I know many would like to see 2.
I have both the Adept units [Tommy comes to our club launches] & the DDC22 is identical to the other one in every way BUT it does not give altitude readings. He saves an hour per unit programming & testing them that way and passes on the 10 bucks.





I just visited one of the local huge sportsmans stores here in town. They carry a good 2000' of reload supplies, but the only black powder they have comes in FFG and FFFG type with and without sulphur. There is no FFFF or FFFFG. I have a Cabella's, Scheels and gun shops I can still try though

Click to expand...

Many stores will order it for you if you don't mind the wait. 4f is used primarily for priming the "frizzen pan" of flintlocks so there is not much demand for it, where as 3F& 2F are used in caplock and cannons by many re-creators of civil war battles and black powder season hunting.

First of all, the bad news: as outdoorsy as you'd think our area is, there is no real black powder to be had. None. Really. Everything else is Pyrodex or handgun/rifle reload powder, not what you want.

We run over the hill to California all the time. There is a great black powder retailer in Auburn, Sierra Gun Supply, at 2131 Grass Valley Highway, Auburn, CA 95603. 1 pound of Goex 4f was ~$20 IIRC. Show your ID, sign the book, done.

I've been very pleased with J-Tek eMatches. Call Jack, it's about $55 for 50 eMatches.

As long as you're under ~20,000' MSL the surgical tubing is a great way to go. This method works very well with J-Tek matches, too.

All the best, James

+1 on the Adept22 !

Bought one last year from Performance Hobbies, and even though I have a Raven now - it is still getting used. Will risk it first before the Raven in a flight that may go outta site and recovery maybe questionable.

It was harder for me to find the 'accessories' than the altimeter. euro terminals, # 2 screws and nuts, nylon washer/standoff, two pluggable connections for the av bay lids, switch and connections... Even though I had G10 and brass tubing ended up making sled out of cheap door skin luan and 1/4 " LOC launch lugs - figured if I screwed up something I can hack out another in 5 minutes and not have to go to the store.

$5 should buy you some of your buddies stash of FFFFg (bring a container like a pill bottle or static bag) or whatever he is using. You need something to measure the charge, I use the medium sized centrifuge container that the AT reloads come in. You will get one of the charges needed from the motor reload that you will fly cause you won't be putting it in the motor case reservoir.

Will be redoing av bay when my switch band hits (thanks Wildman!) and should be easier to get prepped onsite when I am done - but it is functional in its current state.

Kenny

Green Jello said:

Is that correct, and if so some other questions I have are:

1 What is the best Altimeter for first timers than is good for smaller high power rockets? (I really just want the function of the dual deployment and altitude reporting. I don't really need fancy PC graphs etc.)
2. What are the best ematches to use?
3. What is the best container for the black powder. I've seen PVC cups, bullet casings, etc.

Click to expand...

I just started flying DD this past season. I'm a simple guy (not an engineer) and so my approach may be slightly different from a lot of what you see here.

1) The best Altimeter is the one that does what you need for a price you can afford. For me I have been very happy with my HiAlt45k (no longer available) and my Adept 22. They do Dual Deploy and beep out the peak altitude. What more does a Noob need?
2) The best e-matches are .... (Hmm, I don't know what are the "best"). I know what works for me and that's Quest Q2G2s. They are easy to get and have been highly reliable for me.
3) The best container for black powder is the one that you feel the most comfortable with. For me, I use the cardboard tube that the AeroTech ignighter comes in. I cut it in half and then hot glue a Q2G2 into the one end. BP goes in the other end and then I pack it with dogbarf. I cover the top with masking tape and I'm good to go. Lately I have been soldiering on extensions to the Q2G2 leads (strands from Cat5 cabling) so that I can put my charge at the bottom of the parachute bay.

I started out by using motor deploy at apogee to deploy the main chute. The altimeter would fire at 800' to open up the upper section with just a small chute. This was done to build up my confidence.

Since then I use the long delay in the motor as my backup to the apogee charge wired to the altimeter. 24" drogue at the top followed by the main at 800'. Once I worked out the bugs, it has been a pretty stable setup for me. Your Mileage may vary.

Fdog said:

We run over the hill to California all the time. There is a great black powder retailer in Auburn, Sierra Gun Supply, at 2131 Grass Valley Highway, Auburn, CA 95603. 1 pound of Goex 4f was ~$20 IIRC. Show your ID, sign the book, done.

Click to expand...

That's good to know. My in laws live in Auburn and I'm there all the time.

Lame that we don't have any in this town with all the huge shops we have for that kind of stuff.

Green Jello said:

That's good to know. My in laws live in Auburn and I'm there all the time.

Lame that we don't have any in this town with all the huge shops we have for that kind of stuff.

Click to expand...

That is the place here in NorCal to get the "special sauce" for your dual deploy burger. I seriously doubt that anyone else stocks it.

BTW you Nevada Rocketeers should come over the hill and fly with SARG out of Roseville off of Hwy 65 near Thunder Valley.

There's a launch this Saturday. Www.sargrocket.org for details.

Sent from my KFTT using Forum Runner

o1d_dude said:

BTW you Nevada Rocketeers should come over the hill and fly with SARG out of Roseville off of Hwy 65 near Thunder Valley.

There's a launch this Saturday. Www.sargrocket.com for details.

Sent from my KFTT using Forum Runner

Click to expand...

Ooh, good to know. We don't have regular launches here in the Reno area and Roseville isn't too far.

blackjack2564 said:

Or.... ya can follow along with my 3 in DS build. It will be my most complete to date with Av-bay construction, size & how to on charges, shock cord lengths', chute size, etc.

I may build the fincan a bit different than most[probably minimum dia.] but the rest will be same for any 3in DS.

It will start sometime next week after final vote tally.


But yes the Adept 22 [40.00]or for a bit more, much easier to hook up Stratologger[68.00] are perfect for first time DD users.

I will be using one of the above, and a MissleWorks new RRC3!

Click to expand...

Is the RRC3 on the market yet?

I'm new to DD myself.

I'm really happy with:
Adept22... cheap. easy to use. Considering my rocket ended up in a canal... I'm glad I went with this option. (just bought 2 more)
Wildman ejection lighters (with cardboard tubes). Really convenient.
Goex FFFg (3F). Works great. Was readily available locally.

here's another vote for stratologger. It's super easy to use, can be programmed and the best thing is that if you ever need to call them, they pick up the phone! They fixed a altimeter for me that I confessed to breaking. They only charged me $5! How do you beat that??

THier said:

Is the RRC3 on the market yet?

Click to expand...

The RRC3 is in alpha 2 testing, I did first stand alone firing & all control last weekend.It works fine and I believe it's pretty much finished. No problems have been found & works beautifully![ 68-78.00]
The LCD panel, to do on field settings is just about done and ready for it's alpha testing.[25-35.00]
So far the flight viewing package has been installed on Win 7 & 8 Vista but Xp was a real bugger, these have been harder to do than than actual altimeter itself.
Then there are the dongles to allow hooking up to computers for those that wish to do so.
One for Missleworks that powers the unit off USB, no battery needed for hook up and it's led lit to tell you it's functioning correctly! That's a first. [25.00?]
The 2nd will adapt the Strato dongle for all that already have one for a mere pittance of a price. [7-9.00]
After this, then igniter board must be tested.....then it will be ready for the street!

So the actual altimeter is ready.All the other peripherals are still being tested. Of course most of us will just fly it as is,[all basic setting by dip switches on board] but many will want the ability to hook it up to stuff & play. That's the hold up.

Then down the road will come GPS, Telemetry & possibly an accelerometer. All these things can be plugged into the aux port.

So here's the first teaser, reveal & only one ya get for quite awhile. Showing that I already fit it with a Strato in the DarkStar 3 bay.

1 port for aux boards.
2nd port for hooking up on field LCD screen
3rd port for hooking up PC's

Remember ya still can change settings with just the dip switches [under the tape.lol]

Yes I know they're blurry....on purpose.

JordanT said:

If you get one of those cool "Remove Before Flight" tags, here's a neat (and easy) way to make a switch to turn on/off the electronics: https://www.perfectflite.com/StratoLogger manual.pdf look on page 13. Just wire it between your battery + wire and your altimeter. Again: my suggestion is to wrap kevlar thread around the tube to old it to the switch, then put a light coat of epoxy over that to hold it in place. I had my Avionics roll off onto the floor with the pin in it and it broke the tube away from the switch.

Click to expand...

Where do you get small "Remove Before Flight" tags?

These?:
https://aeroconsystems.com/cart/remove-before-flight-flags/rbf4-remove-before-flight/

Green Jello said:

I guess I understand redundancy, but what about this add on for the Adept22:
https://www.adeptrocketry.com/ADEPT22go.htm#DDC22

Click to expand...

That's the setup I flew in my DarkStar DD its maiden flight. Everything went off without a hitch! I agree that wiring and connecting the Adept stuff is REALLY easy! The DDC22 is just the Adept22 without altitude recording...same pin settings, wiring, etc.

I think Adrian probably has the coolest, classiest, most functional unit out there with the Raven's. Had one for awhile, but never used it because: A) Was afraid to lose it or destroy it. B) Required Windows computer and I am almost exclusively Linux (well...I finally had to add a Windows VM to run BurnSIM. Still not happy about that!)

And, I plan to be in line for the RRC3 when it finally hits the market!

Green Jello said:

I suppose if I wanted the altimeter reading without counting beeps, I could throw my Jolly Logic Alt2 in there as well.

Click to expand...

Ya know...I never even think about the beep counting. Just seems like you do it subconsciously or something...

This post won't add anything new that hasn't already been said, but rather reinforce some things. My own experience is by no means exhaustive, but I can tell you what has worked for me.

I use two different altimeters and would highly recommend either one. For cheap, easy, but reliable there's no doubt that the Adept22 is the way to go. For your purposes it would be an excellent choice - it simply does the job you need it to and does it well. If you want LOTS more options, flexibility, features/functions, and something you can grow into if you want to get much more indepth, the Raven3 can't be beat in my book. Excellent product and support, compact in the extreme (especially when paired with a FW altimeter bay), way more bells & whistles than you need but hey why not?

To make the spark, Q2G2s are somewhat of a no brainer. Absolutely reliable like nothing else out there, very-inexpensive and hassle free to obtain, will work with pretty much any type of battery or power source, etc. About the only thing that e-matches have over them is that they are often much longer which might a good thing in some cases. But in those instances, it's a simple thing to add wire to the Q2G2s.

Charge holder. Hmmmm, I've been using lots of different types. Some I've used plastic PEX tubing caps, some I've made myself by the hot glue and straw/centrifuge canister/cardboard tube method, and others I've used charge wells I've bought from Doghouse Rocketry. I like them all, and each has it's advantages and disadvantages depending on the rocket in question. The cleanest, simplest I suppose are the commercial charge wells, but they won't fit on some smaller rocket. This is one area where there's no clear winner.

Powder. I use real FFFFg from Graf & Sons. Yes, it was an enormous hassle and expense to get. But in the end, having one or two pounds in a can will last me for years. The hassle in getting it eventually fades back into the past and then I "just have it" without having to worry about it. The only real option for most of us these days (including myself) is to mail order it. I've only found two sources that will sell in quantities of less than 5 pounds (which is WAY more than you need). Graf & Sons will sell you 2 pounds, which is still an awful lot, but really - just accept it, place the order, spend the money and be done with it for a LONG time. You won't ever have to worry if you have enough, you can do multiple/redundant ground tests without having to fret about "wasting" small amounts, and you've got enough to experiment with.

Let us know which way you go, s6