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  1. #1
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    70 Motor 2 Stage Project > "HellBoy 70"

    Thread Update
    Second attempt at this flight adds 20 more motors to first stage to boost acceleration and fun.

    This project is now the HellBoy70

    Description of second flight starts on post #69.

    Background:
    The Hell Boy (sustainer for this project) is a PoleCat Rocketry 5.5" Fat Man kit modified for clustering. Design is a 2x upscale of the Estes Fat Boy.

    It has flown 6 times single staged on 19x 24mm motors, mostly Estes D12 and E9 engines. Each time fired by a flashpan and firing all motors.

    First pic below is it going up on 19x E9 engines at LDRS this summer. I love the bright glow of burning illuminated particles in the smoke trail and the quiet hiss of all those motors.

    TRF thread: http://www.rocketryforum.com/showthr...-motor-cluster

    Always wanted to stage this beast.......

    Time and Place: Planning to fly this 50 motor 2 stage project at the 11/3/12 CMASS Amesbury, MA launch.

    Details: Two stages, each fired by taped-on flashpan method I have used previously, 31x motors first stage, 19x motors second stage - pictured below.

    The sustainer is the Hell Boy on 19x C11 motors. (8.2 lbs with these motors)
    Stage 2 ignition and dual deploy recovery fired by Featherweight Raven Altimeter.

    Booster would be a one-time use part with tube fins built around 19x D11-P and 12x C11-0 motors. (estimated weight 3.3 lbs)
    Stage 1 ignition: Fired by flashpan at the pad

    Attached is a screen shot of a sim done at webalt.markworld.com. Other sims done on this site correlated well to actual past Hell Boy flights.
    Please note:
    > Distances are in meters and weights in grams
    > Staging is at 130+mph and 130+ft altitude
    > Apogee is about 1200ft and recovery is dual deploy

    Flight safety measures:
    > Safety person ready on fire extinguisher to hose down booster when it lands - this is a precaution due to the number of BP motors, as there are no delays or ejection charges smoldering should be minimized.
    > Another safety person on RC transmitter ready to fire an extra safety ejection charge to separate NC and deploy sustainer recovery system if flight is not nominal. No action would need to be taken by RC safety person unless sustainer trajectory became a concern. RC setup is the Hitec Optic 6, which is digital 2.4GHz. It's supposed to be immune to channel conflicts and has worked well in a number of RC flights. Have an RC relay for receiver which has successfully fired ematches repeatedly in ground tests.
    > Use of Raven logic to prevent 2nd stage ignition if safety criteria are not met. From the Raven manual: "A deployment channel is triggered when all of the checked flight events are true."
    1) Set timer to 1.8 sec
    The other three logic settings are the safeties:
    2) Vertical speed > safety threshold (80% of sim)
    3) Altitude > safety threshold (80% of sim)
    4) Baro pressure decreasing (going up)
    All four logic conditions must be true at the same time for the second stage to fire.

    This should be a very fun flight. 50 motors total, all BP, nearly a full I total impulse with two flashpans.

    Makes me smile thinking about it.

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    Last edited by delta22; 13th November 2012 at 03:00 PM.
    Boris Katan
    NAR / TRA L3
    Lots of fun cluster rocket pictures and video at: www.bpasa.com

  2. #2
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    That's nuts. Just.... nuts.

    What's the booster gonna look like?

    Several rocket motors burned this year.

  3. #3
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    Love it! I was just sketching out a "37-candle birthday cake" saucer a-la your 19-cluseter. And as soon as I calculate the total impulse, I see your thread! Looking forward to this monstrosity!

    I wonder, do you buy them in bulk from Estes? You probably go through more of them than some dealers.

    Ari.
    2013 impulse: 41,122 Ns
    2014 impulse: 27,030 Ns

  4. #4
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    I so completely want to see this flight!


    Later!

    --Coop
    "For although the nepenthe has calmed me, I know always that I am an outsider; a stranger in this century and among those who are still men." --HP Lovecraft

  5. #5
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    My first thought, when I saw the thread title was "Uh oh....", then I saw whose post it was.

    If anyone can pull this off, Boris, it's you!

    Should be a very cool flight.

    -Kevin

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by troj View Post
    My first thought, when I saw the thread title was "Uh oh....", then I saw whose post it was.

    If anyone can pull this off, Boris, it's you!

    Should be a very cool flight.

    -Kevin
    Actually, Kevin, from what I've seen, Boris is quite capable of making this simply a cool flight.

    Now, if I were to attempt something like this, it would be a very cool flight...

    G.D.
    Gregg Discenza
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  7. #7
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    I think there is an unexpected competition ongoing between US and Germany *lol*..see enclosed pictures of "Medusa 88+1", 6" airframe, 88 xC6 + 1 xCTI J410, created by Andreas Block of Leipzig, flown very successfully in May this year... but 2 stage is a real challenge !! ... we keep an eye on this great thread!

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    Last edited by legranddudu; 26th October 2012 at 02:57 PM.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by CarVac View Post
    That's nuts. Just.... nuts.

    What's the booster gonna look like?
    I prefer to think of it as very enthusiastic.
    Nuts would be doing this without careful planning and building up to it over many flights.

    Build will be completed over the next week with pictures posted as it happens.

    Quote Originally Posted by Coop View Post
    I so completely want to see this flight!

    Later!
    --Coop
    Flight 11/3/12 with pictures and video to be posted here.
    Boris Katan
    NAR / TRA L3
    Lots of fun cluster rocket pictures and video at: www.bpasa.com

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by legranddudu View Post
    I think there is an unexepected competition ongoing between US and Germany *lol*..see enclosed pictures of "Medusa 88+1", 6" airframe, 88 xC6 + 1 xCTI J410, created by Andreas Block of Leipzig, flown very successfully in May this year... but 2 stage is a real challenge !! ... we keep an eye on this great thread!
    Wow. That is very cool.

    Looks like a great liftoff.

    Is there any more info on this flight on the web?

    Google search on Medusa 88+1 gets some interesting results but nothing on this flight.
    Boris Katan
    NAR / TRA L3
    Lots of fun cluster rocket pictures and video at: www.bpasa.com

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by legranddudu View Post
    I think there is an unexepected competition ongoing between US and Germany *lol*..see enclosed pictures of "Medusa 88+1", 6" airframe, 88 xC6 + 1 xCTI J410, created by Andreas Block of Leipzig, flown very successfully in May this year... but 2 stage is a real challenge !! ... we keep an eye on this great thread!
    I love it! Please, keep us posted on efforts along this line!

    -Kevin

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by delta22 View Post
    I prefer to think of it as very enthusiastic.
    Enthusiastic in that twisted sorta way that fascinates us all.

    Big clusters are not easy -- I remember Larry Drake's attempts with his Maxi-D at LDRS 23. There was a lot of planning that went it; little things make a difference. What got Larry was not understanding the difference between real BP and BP substitutes.

    -Kevin

  12. #12
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    Subscribed!

    TA
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  13. #13
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    Boris,

    the full report is on our club server, a closed user group that does not give entry tickets to google robots...in fact I will ask Andreas if he is happy to post more details here.

    Quote Originally Posted by delta22 View Post
    ...

    Is there any more info on this flight on the web?

    Google search on Medusa 88+1 gets some interesting results but nothing on this flight.

  14. #14
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    Just thinking about this makes me drool!
    NAR 91107, Level 2

    It's better to buy a tool than to be a tool.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by CarVac View Post
    That's nuts. Just.... nuts.

    What's the booster gonna look like?
    After the flight it will most likely be a charred piece of cardboard.

    I'm really happy that our field is probably going to get a good soaking a few days before the launch.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by qquake2k View Post
    Just thinking about this makes me drool!
    No kdding!
    Last edited by troj; 27th October 2012 at 12:15 AM.

  17. #17
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    Are you at all worried about the -0 motors firing and igniting the the second stage, or is there some sort of bulkhead preventing that or ???

    Sweet project.

    "I" motor the hard way!

    Bryce Chanes
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  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by bandman444 View Post
    Are you at all worried about the -0 motors firing and igniting the the second stage, or is there some sort of bulkhead preventing that or ???

    Sweet project.

    "I" motor the hard way!
    Wadding above each motor and a bulkhead between stages.

    Both to prevent:
    1) A first stage C11-O from igniting stage 2 early and also
    2) In case a first stage C11 is not initially fired, to prevent is from being ignited at the wrong end at second stage ignition.
    Last edited by delta22; 26th October 2012 at 07:40 PM.
    Boris Katan
    NAR / TRA L3
    Lots of fun cluster rocket pictures and video at: www.bpasa.com

  19. #19
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    Boris, I'm sure conditions will play a part in this but I would imagine you plan on flying this sometime in the early afternoon.

    I just want to make sure I'm LCO at that time and we should give a heads-up to the USGS so they don't think there's something wrong with their sensors.

    Bill, make sure you get us good weather for that day. Do that first and then you can take on the RC for the recovery back-up.

    Everyone who can be there, bring your cameras and any video recording equimpent you have. This should be awesome.
    KENN BLADE
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  20. #20
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    Totally awesome! Make sure the cameras are all prepped for this flight!
    Dick Stafford
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  21. #21
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    Soooo... Is the booster gonna tumble down, or have a chute? Nothing for recovery?
    I don't always fly rockets,... But when I do, I get them back. (The most interesting man in the world TV commercial voice)

    Fleet...35
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  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by troj View Post
    My first thought, when I saw the thread title was "Uh oh....", then I saw whose post it was.

    If anyone can pull this off, Boris, it's you!

    Should be a very cool flight.

    -Kevin
    I had that same thought!'

    Awesome idea! I can't wait to see some footage!


    Right after this is your mass C motor flight in your 10" Bid Daddy, right?




    Braden
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  23. #23
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    This outta be good!!!

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by [POW]Eagle159 View Post
    Soooo... Is the booster gonna tumble down, or have a chute? Nothing for recovery?
    There is only a 1/4" of space between stages and the staging event will happen at about 130ft, so there isn't space for a chute and not likely time for it to deploy. Chute would get badly singed by second stage.

    Booster will tumble to the ground within the 200ft launch safety area, slowed by large ring fins, much like a saucer recovery.

    Quote Originally Posted by UPscaler View Post
    Right after this is your mass C motor flight in your 10" Bid Daddy, right?

    Braden
    I would like to do that next year.....127 motors are calling.....
    Boris Katan
    NAR / TRA L3
    Lots of fun cluster rocket pictures and video at: www.bpasa.com

  25. #25
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    Hell Boy's nose cone has a 54mm tube down its center to carry its adjustable nose weight.

    This is where the RC electronics for the safety ejection charge are installed.

    Pic1: Wired Hitec 2.4GHz digital receiver, relay and 6.V LiFe battery. Connections were soldered, wrapped with electrical tape and then masking tape.

    Pic2: Taped and packed RC electronics inside a 54mm spacer tube, which fit perfectly below nose weights.

    Pic3: RC wires poking through base of NC. Connect green wires and Rx electronics are powered up. Connect safety ejection charge between green and red wires.

    Successfully tested this setup twice firing ematches. First standing next to it, second from over 300ft away through my basement wall.

    To fire this two switches must be set on RC transmitter.
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    Last edited by delta22; 29th October 2012 at 06:17 AM.
    Boris Katan
    NAR / TRA L3
    Lots of fun cluster rocket pictures and video at: www.bpasa.com

  26. #26

    Thumbs up

    Not much to say except,


    SUBSCRIBED!!!


    I gotta see the results of this uh, event!


    Best of luck to the launch!

    See ya,
    Rod

  27. #27
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    Installed the amazing Raven Featherweight altimeter onto the HellBoy's electronics sled.

    This will handle second stage ignition, as well as drogue and main deployments.

    The Raven is capable of a wide range of complex programming options for up to four channels, but is less than 2" long and under $160.

    http://www.featherweightaltimeters.com/The_Raven.php

    Planned settings for this device are noted in the first post.

    Thanks to Bill Spadafora for suggesting I use the Raven for this flight.
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    Boris Katan
    NAR / TRA L3
    Lots of fun cluster rocket pictures and video at: www.bpasa.com

  28. #28
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    Booster is a very minimal, one-time use design.

    31 motors epoxied together, then bonded to thrust plate and 1.25" length of 5.5" tubing.

    This very short section of tubing has a build up of coupler tube sections and popcicle sticks that reach 2" inside base of sustainer.

    Pictured parts above motors have been painted with West 206 epoxy to fire harden them and further bond them together.

    Large ring fins will be added to complete the booster.

    Pic2 is a bunch of my rockets elevated off the floor of my basement in case of flooding due to storm/hurricane Sandy.
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    Boris Katan
    NAR / TRA L3
    Lots of fun cluster rocket pictures and video at: www.bpasa.com

  29. #29
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    A long time ago at one of the AHPRA Flagstaff launches we had a rocket with 300 D12s as a single stage. It got off the launch pad but was far from successful.

    The biggest issue, besides being under powered, was motors catoing in the middle of the cluster. The motors were all glue together to form a large disc that was retained to the flat aft bulkhead by screws with nuts and washers. When a few of the motors catoed it blew off large groups of still thrusting motors which landed in the grass. Fire were contained, debris picked up and the flyer was never seen again.

    Things learned,
    Use good motors that have been stored and transported properly
    Lots of fire fighting equipment.

    Mark

  30. #30
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    Perhaps fiberglassing the outside of each motor would reduce the chance of the cardboard splitting and setting off adjacent motors?

    Several rocket motors burned this year.

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