Project 60K: N5800 Contest Rocket

The Rocketry Forum

Help Support The Rocketry Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.

edwinshap1

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 17, 2010
Messages
2,131
Reaction score
3
Project 60K Failure Analysis

In May of 2012 Project60k was started as an attempt to break the “N” altitude record, and complete the CTI N5800 challenge. After much design and other collaborative work we had come up with a design that fit the goals and a reasonable timeline for completion. We then set off to find the money and other resources to put a project of this scale together. After speaking with many manufactures and vendors, we put together a full size budget for the project. After receiving many generous donations from vendors, and the community through donations, we were able to begin the build phase.

After leaping that hurdle, it was a matter of time before part started arriving for the project. We ordered nearly every component from small rocketry vendors. The entire rocket is actually made of purpose built amateur rocketry components, with the exception of the fin stock. Widely available body tube, nosecone, and electronics were used in this project.

The fins were designed in Solidworks. The bi-directional airfoil reduced the mass of the fin by half, and helped to reduce vibration at high velocity. The fin is machined from a ¾” thick piece of aluminum, and fillets are milled into the fin. The base of the fin was milled to be rounded so that the ¾” wide base could be seamlessly seated onto a 4” airframe. The fins were surface mounted onto the carbon fiber using Loctite 9430 Hysol Stuctural Adhesive, providing high hardness, tensile, and peel strength. Prior to adhesion, the fins were wet sanded using the epoxy to remove the oxide layer, as well as increase bonding surface area. The body tube and nosecone were coated in this adhesive as well, to be used as an ablative.

 
Points of Failure:

The source of failure was determined to be one of the fins. There was little to no epoxy on the first two inches of the fin, and air was able to lift the fin, peeling the tube apart. The area with no epoxy is circled in red, note that the rest of the fin, where the epoxy did sufficiently bond to the fin and tube, the top layer of the tube is torn off, and the tube and epoxy are still bonded to the aluminum.
178Ty


After the first fin released from the rocket, it made a sharp turn to the horizontal and both other fins were torn off. It has a large curve on the leading edge from how it was torn, and the trailing edge was bent up into an S shape.
178Uk


Pictured below is what we determined to be the last fin to be torn from the body tube. Below is the contour on the base of the fin. Note that body tube (black) is still attached to most of the fin. On the right is the shape of the fin post flight. The red line shows the contour of the fin after removal. This was likely the last fin to be torn off as it shows the least stress, so the rocket likely decelerated after the second fin was removed.
178Va
178Yg


The failure of the body tube is an interesting one. We have heard many times over that bonding aluminum to carbon fiber is very difficult due to oxidation, material incompatibility, and a few others. We wet sanded the fins with epoxy to inhibit oxidation, and then cured the fins at 180F to reduce cure time and increase strength. We found that the Loctite resin used to bond the fins has a higher peel strength than the resin used to wrap the tube. It tore large amounts of fibers away from the tube, leaving exposed carbon fiber visible both on the fin bases and the tube itself, as seen in the images above.

Once the first fin tore off, the rest of the rocket quickly followed. The two inches between the top of the motor and the base of the coupler, where the vent holes were drilled, collapsed. That collapse caused the 3/8” threaded rod to snap, leaving the recovery electronics in the open. The electronics were not found.
178VZ


The nosecone bulkhead was similarly destroyed, but it was not recovered for inspection. The bulkhead, ¼” threaded rod, and nose tip were not recovered, and they probably failed at the same time. We expect that when the bulkhead was stressed, it snapped, causing the nose tip to break its bond from the rest of the nose, leaving the cone and rod behind. The Garmin Astro was recovered intact inside the nosecone, and the Beeline transmitter was recovered 10 feet away, also intact, still recording.
178Wh


The electronics bay bulkhead, however, was recovered. It was complete with U-bolt, Kevlar, and a CD3 ejection charge, which was never ruptured, though the charges were lost. Shown below with 3/8” rod removed, though they were recovered as once piece.
178Wr


Additionally, the rocket was coated in the Loctite epoxy for an ablative layer. It was very rippled, and was sanded to a far smoother finish, though it was not smooth in comparison to the tubes found in many high performance applications. When recovered we found that the adhesive bonded so strongly to the nosecone that it actually pulled small chunks from the cone during ascent. We have recovered a filament wound cone recovered after coming in ballistic from upwards of 1000ft, but this pattern is not consistent with cracking from impact, and it was going far slower due to the lack of a tip.
178WG


Lastly is the parachute. It was in a tether, which was recovered, but at the high speeds it was released at, it was pulled out almost immediately. The parachute was torn in many different spots, but the most interesting problem happened at the swivel. When shown to Gene of Fruity Chutes we got a reaction that we did not expect. The swivel was rated to 1500lb strength, and it was bent straight. Gene had never seen that kind of damage before, which says a lot about the stresses of this motor.
178XH



Possibility for Improvement:

• Reassess our bonding technique, and practice before making another attempt. I believe that if the first fin to fail had been properly glued, it would have survived to the end of the boost, barring a nosecone or coupler failure.

• Determine a better way of drilling vent holes for electronics and pressure. The current method of drilling into composite tubes causes inner layers to be pulled from the wall, reducing strength, and exposing every layer of composite to the supersonic flow.

• Find high quality ablatives to coat the tube and nose with. The Loctite is far too strong, and when it does tear it tears the tube and cone with it. We may use Loctite in acetone for a good ablative due to the lower strength properties when dissolved.

• Find a stronger tube and nosecone. The filament wound tubes are strong, but every fiber is exposed due to the grinding of the tube to create a uniform finish. This leaves the fibers exposed to heat and aerodynamic drag, which reduces the velocity it can be flown in low altitude. We have a composites expert testing pre-preg carbon fiber tubes for durability, and we will run strength tests of our own when the tubes arrive.

• Test all components to flight stresses. This stems from the industry itself. Parts can be remade to close tolerance, but once a part is destroyed the issue can be far harder to resolve. We intend to test every part we receive to the maximum stresses it will encounter during the flight. If parts are broken they can always be replaced, and it will be far cheaper than rebuilding the rocket from the ground up.


 
Final Notes:

According to the rocket’s purpose, this flight was a failure, as we did not make it to 60000 feet, and we did not recover successfully. However we proved some hypotheses that had been doubted for a long time. We flew surface mounted aluminum fins to mach 3 at 10000ft MSL before a failure, though we believe that the failure was due to reduced adhesion on the leading edge of the failure point, not a failure of the fins or of the adhesive themselves.

It is also important to note that the epoxy did hold the aluminum to the tube, even when the fins were no longer attached to the body. This shows that bonding aluminum to carbon fiber does work as intended. Note that we did groove the base of the fin for increased adhesion, and we did mill the fins from ¾” plate to get aluminum fillets on both sides of the fin without welding and compromising the annealing properties.

We would like to thank all of our donators, as well as Wildman Hobbies, Rouse-tech, Fruity Chutes, CTI, Tender Rocketry, Whats Up Hobbies, Beeline, and any others I am forgetting at this moment.

Also, a special thanks to Kurt Gugisberg, who signed off on our flight, Tony Alcocer for his advice and assistance, and finally Aeropac for allowing us to launch.



Additional Materials:

High Speed Liftoff
[video=youtube;mBeYUV8wlW8]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mBeYUV8wlW8[/video]
Video by Carlos Rodriguez-Santiago

Launch View 1
[video=youtube;mrGn2gpkdGE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mrGn2gpkdGE&feature=plcp[/video]
Video by Jared Shapiro (edwinshap1)

Launch View 2
[video=youtube;GdJAiXuDnbo]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GdJAiXuDnbo&feature=player_detailpage#t=29s[/video]
Video by Carlo Vaccari (Carvac)

PDF file of report below.

View attachment Project 60K Failure Analysis.pdf
 
Last edited:
Could you have a removable, waxed stud sticking out of the mandrel when the airframe is wound or wrapped? This would then be the vent hole/static port and not require any drilling. In fact, the fibres would clump around it slightly making it stronger.
 
Nice writeup!

Filament wound tubes are made by winding the filaments on a mandrel, and curing it. The surface of the tube is not smooth, and a grinder is then used to grind the surface of the tube, so that it's smooth. In the process, this cuts fibers, which I wonder if isn't part of the problem you experienced.

Would it perhaps be better to lay up your own tubes, using cloth or sleeve, so that you don't end up with cut fibers? You would then need to do preparation on the area where the fins get bonded.

-Kevin
 
From one of my "other sports", have you considered a vibrator wand?

These are used to assist with pouring epoxy into holes in pressure housings, and allows the epoxy to settle nicely. You can watch the bubbles come to the surface. Perhaps this might allow the epoxy to flow completely under the root of the fin.

All the best, James
 
Jared,
Thanks for posting the failure analysis. I agree that there is lot to be learned from each of these projects, and from the summation of all them.

Can you post before-flight pictures of the finished fins and their airfoil? Those looked to be very well done, and I know that airfoiling aluminum is no easy task.
 
Can you post before-flight pictures of the finished fins and their airfoil? Those looked to be very well done, and I know that airfoiling aluminum is no easy task.


First step is milling the bottom.
image-1878533233.jpg


Next is milling the first face.
image-1717852157.jpg



image-2984611292.jpg

After milling the mirror image on the bottom. We run a cut out file.


Just placed on. (note the trailing edge is at the case)
image-2162213481.jpg


Final attachment. (trailing edge 2" from bottom of tube.)
image-2289617626.jpg
 
We really need someone to build a 4" bird that is reinforced to the ends of the earth and just get this over with. To me, it appears that these things are just being tossed together using archaic methods expecting them to be sufficient. I always read "that will be sufficient" and it never is.

Model rocket techniques CAN NOT be used in these flight environments. Your epoxy didn't contact the entire fin root? Come on, man!
 
We really need someone to build a 4" bird that is reinforced to the ends of the earth and just get this over with. To me, it appears that these things are just being tossed together using archaic methods expecting them to be sufficient. I always read "that will be sufficient" and it never is.

Model rocket techniques CAN NOT be used in these flight environments. Your epoxy didn't contact the entire fin root? Come on, man!

I think saying they're being "tossed together" is a bit extreme, and inaccurate.

The epoxy contact issue just provides reinforcement of the fact that even when you're worrying about all the big things, such as how to prevent oxidation from causing bonding issues, you can't forget the little things, like making sure you use enough adhesive, and have a full bond.

-Kevin
 
We really need someone to build a 4" bird that is reinforced to the ends of the earth and just get this over with. To me, it appears that these things are just being tossed together using archaic methods expecting them to be sufficient. I always read "that will be sufficient" and it never is.

Model rocket techniques CAN NOT be used in these flight environments. Your epoxy didn't contact the entire fin root? Come on, man!

Really? Model rocket techniques? Ever heard of CTI's Hyperion sounding rocket?
https://www.rocketryplanet.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=14014&d=1336688146
 
Your epoxy didn't contact the entire fin root? Come on, man!

First of all a "model rocket" technique held till Mach 3".

"c'mon man".

Think of our feeling when we found out how close we were.
We all agree that that cause shouldn't have been the failure, but we tried and learned from a technique that most would have said wouldn't have held on through Mach.

As Jared said before we have no evidence that says that had the leading edge been fully adhered we could have made it through the burn. Who knows? Give me 6months and I will tell you if surface mounting will hold to Mach 3+.


And just incase it wasn't clear. There were no outer signs of the failed attachment preflight.


Sure build a rocket with 10 layers of tip-to-tip, win the prize, and tell us what you learned? It is my opinion that the people who have tried (and failed) deserve a lot more respect for their efforts because anybody could sit at your computer and type ideas for the greatest rocket ever, but until you put it on the pad and press the button. It's all talk.

"You learn more from failure that you do from Success"

I personally have learned so much from this project, I am currently making changes on the projects I have coming in the next year to reflect what we have learned last week. I hope when the next time someone is planning a Mach buster they might think about this project and think that maybe its possible with the right surface mount to keep the fins on.

I know I will.

Bryce
 
Can you explain how exactly the adhesive didn't contact the whole root on that one fin only? The other two fins were fine, but what seemed to be different?
 
Thanks for the pictures. Those fins look awesome! Its too bad it didn't work. This was a valiant attempt.

Just a matter of semantics I think. But the fins worked great.

However people will notice how different our fins look from the Lubin's and both Chris's. Our design requires a much longer root edge. Which forces other design constraints too.

I think ours was the most statically stable though.
 
Sure build a rocket with 10 layers of tip-to-tip, win the prize, and tell us what you learned? It is my opinion that the people who have tried (and failed) deserve a lot more respect for their efforts because anybody could sit at your computer and type ideas for the greatest rocket ever, but until you put it on the pad and press the button. It's all talk.

I respect it, sure. I also semi-understand the feeling you have of "we tried, you didn't, so shut it." Had I the funding, I could also tack some fins to a tube and launch the rocket and be in this club.

Now, that being said, you went to great lengths on your fins. You contoured them nicely with an airfoil, and even went so far as to contour the root to maximize surface area to attach to. My hat is off to you for thinking of that. My next step would be to assure that the provisions I made for adhering the fins would not go for naught and apply the fins in such a manner that I was SURE that there was ample epoxy contact. And by that I mean apply an excessive amount of epoxy and applying it in such a manner to prevent any voids. There is no mechanical bond between the two parts, purely adhesive bonding, so you need to be 100% confident that ever last bit of fin root area is covered in epoxy and adhered to the tube. A bit of Non-destructive evaluation would have been very valuable in this case.

I am no longer focused on critiquing your methods, but there is much to learn from this. You must be methodical in everything that you do with these projects, every component has a purpose. Additionally, each component must be sufficient for the job. In your case, everything seems sufficient except for the epoxy. All those attempting this or similar adventures, take heed.
 
Just a matter of semantics I think. But the fins worked great.

However people will notice how different our fins look from the Lubin's and both Chris's. Our design requires a much longer root edge. Which forces other design constraints too.

I think ours was the most statically stable though.

Do you think its possible the body tube could have had a slight depresion prevented full contact?
 
I personally have learned so much from this project, I am currently making changes on the projects I have coming in the next year to reflect what we have learned last week. I hope when the next time someone is planning a Mach buster they might think about this project and think that maybe its possible with the right surface mount to keep the fins on.

I know I will.

Bryce

I know I will too, Bryce. Thank you for sharing what you learned with us. Precisely because we all approached this from the perspective of starting with a N motor build and working up, instead of starting with a Class 3 build and working down, the rocket community will learn a great deal about pushing the limits of composites, about creative ways to enhance their strength and usability and about ways that metal can and can’t be used to supplement them. What has been tried so far may not have worked for the N5800, but it is certainly usable under slightly less rigorous demands. I think the sum total of these projects has been a great learning experience for the whole community.
 
Just a matter of semantics I think.

My apologies – that was semantics. What I meant was: the fins look great. Its too bad that the effort as a whole failed. Ex post, it is easy to find the one small thing that led to a downfall. The problem is that, ex ante, its hard to know where that one small thing is lurking. Great effort!
 
My apologies – that was semantics. What I meant was: the fins look great. Its too bad that the effort as a whole failed. Ex post, it is easy to find the one small thing that led to a downfall. The problem is that, ex ante, its hard to know where that one small thing is lurking. Great effort!

My bad if that came of harsh.
 
I see surface mount fins and know they are the weak point, it comes out of my brain ex nihilo.
 
Do you think its possible the body tube could have had a slight depresion prevented full contact?


Here should maybe be a better picture of the leading edge of the failed fin.

Its open for better analysis, but perhaps we had plenty of epoxy. The little alien looking indention is what held on to the fin. But there is more epoxy under that too.
Maybe there was plenty of epoxy. But it was such a thick layer of epoxy that it was trying to act as part of the structure? It was clearly a thicker layer there, because where we ripped off the tube there is no visible layer of epoxy.

The plot thickens. (or is it the epoxy...)


image-2452096948.jpg
 
What about just milling the fin can out? Fins and all? Or is that forbidden? Or impractical? Or too costly? Or some combination thereof. Anyway Bryce, Jared, and team 60k, great job... holy crap that thing was moving. :y:

- Jeff
 
Jeff if I understand what you are saying mill the whole can from one piece of a 14" diameter piece of aluminum?

I would classify that as unpractical.
 
What about just milling the fin can out? Fins and all? Or is that forbidden?

- Jeff

It would be the strongest solution, but really costly. Welding or bolting fins to a metal can is more than enough.
 
Milling out a fincan is possible. I immediately envision a milling machine that is used to make custom car rims. May take forever, but it can be done.

I'd consider that "Doing it right."
 

Latest posts

Back
Top