Short Hiatus Project

[closet astronaut]

While waiting on electronics for the Merc capsule I decieded on a quick hiatus project. As I have no experience with clusters and couldn't find a cluster rocket kit I was interested in I decided on the Little Joe, besides, it's free, just press a button and viola, instant rocket. I know..I know..I just built one of these a few weeks ago but I was so impressed with it's flight characteristics I thought it would be perfect for a cluster. Using a C-6 in the first it was way under powerd, I figure maybe 250-300' high.

I'm going to make a few changes on this one, first will be beefing up the fins and making them through mount, on the first they were the only thing I didn't double laminate, they've taken some beating with the four flights it's seen. I will also make the abort tower poles mount through the capsule into a small disc in the nose of the capsule. The engine mount rings are already different, I used Elmers foam board for those. I've also been experimenting with coatings, with paper mods any moisture causes ink fade and distortion. There's been discussion on PM about preserving mods from this problem using clear coat but it's application is sensitive, done incorrectly will cause the very damage you'r trying to prevent. I have already coated one of my stomp rockets with good sucess.

This has become one of my favorite in my fleet. I just made an order from HL and have some C-11's on the way for this and the sci-fi. Since I balanced the sci-fi the C-6 has also become too under powered.

Any way..can't sit around scratching my butt waiting on electronics, especially when there's more to learn..AND BUILD!

[vigilante]

A little off topic, but what do you mean by "just press a button and instant rocket"?

[UfO]

Nice start. I think a cluster rocket may be in order when my current builds are complete!

[les]

A little off topic, but what do you mean by "just press button a button and instant rocket"?

it looks like a card stock rocket to me. You can see the printouts in the first picture

[closet astronaut]

it looks like a card stock rocket to me. You can see the printouts in the first picture

Exactly..just press a button and instant rocket... but of course it has to be built. I don't have to buy kits, I just go through my files, pick one and print. I have so many mods on file I don't know which one to pick. On top of that I have ideas for designs that I can use my supply of towl tubes.

Some times I get the urge for a kit just because of the quickness of build time.

[closet astronaut]

She's a done deal

I didn't want to bore every one with the duplicate build pics, every thing's pretty much the same. Just a little more beef in the fins and cowles, a little different set up in the capsule, and of course a tri-engine mount. I still need the chute and to balance.

[Rocketbuilder]

Good Lord, you call that a hiatus project? It looks like a major undertaking to me.
I am in awe of your skill once again. I hope it's a good flier!

[JPVegh]

Absolutely beautiful work, really top notch paper modelling but the engine spacing is a bit concerning.

[AstronMike]

Man! Stuff like *that* only serves to make me look thin and puny....

[cwbullet]

Great job. I amazed at the workmanship. Hard to believe it is cardstock.

[gdjsky01]

So where was the initial thread? Thx. Nice build!

- Jeff

[closet astronaut]

Absolutely beautiful work, really top notch paper modelling but the engine spacing is a bit concerning.

I have thought the same thing. I had already built the mount when I did the search on cluster rockets here on the forum, I found in the search some pics of several clusters and they where all close together. We'll just see what happens, the whole point of this build is to just get familiar with controllers, igniters and getting every thing to fire at the same time, basically just drifting the learning curve.

[closet astronaut]

Man! Stuff like *that* only serves to make me look thin and puny....

MIKE ! Where ya been? Long time no hear. Did you get my PM?

[closet astronaut]

Good Lord, you call that a hiatus project? It looks like a major undertaking to me.
I am in awe of your skill once again. I hope it's a good flier!

Yea..it really doesn't take long to build this, especially after doing it once before. The biggest time consumer is the tower and building the drum for the capsule to fit inside the main body.

[closet astronaut]

So where was the initial thread? Thx. Nice build!

- Jeff

Here's the thread of the first build, there's also a video of the first three flights.

http://www.rocketryforum.com/showthr...Joe-1-48-scale

[closet astronaut]

Thanks for the kind words all, I'm glad every one enjoyed it. I'll get some videos of it on my next launch.

I just recieved my package from Hobby link. I got my first E engines! E-9-4's, Planning to use in the Explorrer and the Atlas. I also bought my youngest daughter the Moon mut kit with it's own launch pad and controller, I thinks it's not going to look like the moon mut though, I think it's going to come out pink with glitter.

Since I'm still waiting on the electronics I have found a rocket on the Fliskit site the I really like,


I believe it was around $28.00 so instead of buying it I downloaded the pictures of it and the pdf file of the blue print and plan to duplicate it from scratch. I think it's going to be a fairly quick build. I would like to get in one more launch before the weather changes and I with the cluster Joe, my daughter's new toy, a couple of E engins in my existing E capable rockets I would like one more new flier to launch , once fall and winter set in here in Fla. it's windy almost all the time.

Stay tuned...more to come

[Marc_G]

The Adfecta is a beauty, and I plan to buy one in the foreseeable future once my mountain of kits is whittled down. I don't clone at 100% scale any kit currently in production, because I'd rather support the companies, but this is one I'd love to clone as an upscale (after obtaining JF's blessing and permission to reproduce the decals in upscale) after building the original. Are you sure you want to scratch it? The nosecone is a bit odd, and 20 fins, nice decals... seems like a good use of $28 for a kit. But either way I'll subscribe your build with great interest. Keep us posted.

Marc

[closet astronaut]

The Adfecta is a beauty, and I plan to buy one in the foreseeable future once my mountain of kits is whittled down. I don't clone at 100% scale any kit currently in production, because I'd rather support the companies, but this is one I'd love to clone as an upscale (after obtaining JF's blessing and permission to reproduce the decals in upscale) after building the original. Are you sure you want to scratch it? The nosecone is a bit odd, and 20 fins, nice decals... seems like a good use of $28 for a kit. But either way I'll subscribe your build with great interest. Keep us posted.

Marc

I would rather buy the kit if for no other reason than the laser cut fins, but I just spent around fifty bucks on electronics for the Merc capsule project and another seventy or so engines, chutes and a kit for my daughter from Hobby link. And there are other expenses in the works so if I want it I'm going to have to build it with what I have on hand.

Actually the cone will be a piece if cake. The tough cones are the ones the have curves. Mine will be different from the original due to the transition. I won't be able to duplicate the inverted curves with paper so it will be a simple cone shape. With all the fins this thing has I'll experiment with single ply card board laminated with car stock. This is really a beautiful design. As with most of the Flis Kits they have that wild sci-fi look that I really like. This one looks simple enough so I figured it would be a good place to start. As far as the decals..I'll just have to improvise, I'll come up with some thing that will look cool. I did the same thing with the Estes Solar Warrior, after I got it together I couldn't satand all the blue so I wipped up a design using crome shelf paper, some automotive pin stripping and a paint, tape off and repaint gig, I thought it turned out pretty good for winging it.

[gdjsky01]

I think your builds are wonderful, and your skills tremendous! But please, don't clone Jim's work. Its not fair to him and his business. Besides, you are obviously talented enough to come up with a cool design.

If we were talking about out of production clones?? Sure! Why not!!? Even clones of designs that someone is already cloning like Semroc does, sure, go right ahead. Upscale or downscale sure! Or use as inspiration for something else, absolutely. But an exact clone of an original, unique design, that is still for sale, I'd not. IMO.

I don't wish to start a flame war, so I am trying to keep this completely respectful. And please don't think I am being nasty about it. My tone is meant to be completely conversational and friendly. And I'll NOT post again in this thread about it.
I've said my

[closet astronaut]

I think your builds are wonderful, and your skills tremendous! But please, don't clone Jim's work. Its not fair to him and his business. Besides, you are obviously talented enough to come up with a cool design.

If we were talking about out of production clones?? Sure! Why not!!? Even clones of designs that someone is already cloning like Semroc does, sure, go right ahead. Upscale or downscale sure! Or use as inspiration for something else, absolutely. But an exact clone of an original, unique design, that is still for sale, I'd not. IMO.

I don't wish to start a flame war, so I am trying to keep this completely respectful. And please don't think I am being nasty about it. My tone is meant to be completely conversational and friendly. And I'll NOT post again in this thread about it.
I've said my

This is an interesting post to say the least. I have ran into a similar delima in the paper modelers community. Although 98% of paper models are free, there are those who frown on passing a file by e-mail or PM. I thought it was a little over the top, I mean, what difference does it make if you aquire a file via e-mail or from the site it's posted on, aren't we splitting hairs here? But it was explaned to me this way: The designer has to pay for web hoasting and in many cases gets royalties from each hit on the site; ok..that makes sense.

So to get more education; there's a few things I don't understand. I'm going to ask a few questions, questions that would, to me, seem to be common sense questions. To make sure there's no misunderstanding, these questions are not meant to sound disrespectful or sarcatsic.

The first most obvious is: If I did build this and didn't post a build thread who's going to know?

Second: If I built this, flew it and posted videos of it, who would know wether it was a kit, or scratch build?

These first two are the knee jerk questions of the carnal mind.

Third: What if I scratch build this and post a good build thread that inspired some one, who's not able to build the way I do, to go to the site and buy the kit. This would be free advertising. I would not claim designer staus. I have ALWAYS given credit to those who are WAY more skilled than I in designing models and rockets. I have the utmost respect for those who put in the time, hard work and ingenuity required to make these works of art available.

Fourth:" Upscale or downscale sure!" So it would be ok to build this as long as it's larger or smaller?

Fifth:" But an exact clone of an original," So if this was a little larger with slightly differen't fin and transition design this would be acceptable?

If this was my design offered on my web site I would have no problem with some one building it from scratch, how could I prevent it, as long as they wern't claiming it as thier own, offering it for sale, or trying to descredit it in some way. After all isn't imulation the sincerest form of flattery?

I don't know Jim, I don't know if he frequents this forum or if this would offend him but if he could be contacted to weigh in on this I would concede to his wishes out of respect.

I made a promise to Scott, the designer of the 1/4 Merc capsule to never sale the model, and I have never offered it for "SALE", and never will, even though all the materials, ink, labor time and much of the interrior is all mine. Out of respect for him and the fact he made it available to all for free.

BTW..I think this sort of post should have come via PM. Not through public build thread.

[JPVegh]

The rocket biz is so limited to such a small group of hobbiests that it is generally frowned upon to clone models that are in current production. As a community we tend to try to support those who have made the investment to supply our small hobby. That said there can be a certain amount of hypocrisy among folks who complain about people cloning rockets. For instance I saw a thread where one member(not mentioning names) stated that he bought a kit for the sole purpose of having a pattern to make future models as he lost them. Sure he paid for a kit but I guess the future models he plans to build from his pattern don't count as clones?

Anyway do what you want here but don't be too surprised if some give you grief over cloning models in current production. In fact there was a rather animated discussion here on the forum on just this subject not too long ago. I believe one of the participants of that discussion has since been banned, not because of the cloning but because he liked poking at another forum member.

[gdjsky01]

That was me. I admit it. Is it hypocrisy? I paid rob for his work. I think you are completely out of line. it's as if I crashed a kit and rebuilt it. Do you really think this is the same as literally cloning a work from scatch by copying the graphic? I'd expect better. And I don't hide behind my comments. Ever.

[JPVegh]

You pay for one kit and that gives you the right to zip off as many copies as you want? You paid for a kit, not the rights to the design and since when is rebuilding a lost anything analogous to making repairs? Call me a sucker but when I lose a rocket that I really like I usually buy another, I dont scratch one up and call it repairs. Then you call out Closet Astronaut who will be completely scratch building, in card stock, more of an homage than a real clone? Yes IMO that's hyposcrisy and I'm not hiding behind anything. Maybe you should expect better from yourself before commenting on what you expect from others. From my vantage point you don't look to be standing on the moral high ground.

[RWmarlow]

So If I order all the parts for a current kit (external airframe)....ordered a 29 as opposed to stock 24 mm, bulit my own baffle and used an exisiting chute from the same manuf. ....what kind of cloning "sin' am I committing?

[RWmarlow]

And I DO buy a lot of kits....they tend to stay in the package for some reason.....

[closet astronaut]

Do you really think this is the same as literally cloning a work from scatch by copying the graphic?.

Another question: Copying a graphic..What if I just LOOK at the picture and build one to match the picture?

Another question: I thought you said "And I'll NOT post again in this thread about it." It's pretty funny actually, I showed my daughter this and told her, "he'll be back, I guarantee he'll post again, and sure enough. If you're unable to keep you'r promise you could at least answer the five questions put forth..yes?

Marc G said pretty close to what you said, I had to go back and reread his post after answering you'rs but he did it in a very subbtle and unpresumptuous manner. JPVegh also laid out the reason in a very uderstandable and reasonable manner. There is a right way and a wrong way.

Besides, us poor, backwards, simplistic, and prehistoric country boys don't always have the means to aquire every thing we want, so we have to improvise, pick and choose. Besides I just put forth over a hundred dollars in support of our hobby in the past week alone, not counting what I've pent over the last six months.

Any thoughts and suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

[jflis]

Ok, I'll jump in

Bottom line I would rather you not scratch build one of my designs when I offer them for sale at very reasonable prices, *with* instructions and decals. I can't stop anyone from doing it and, as was mentioned, if I saw such a model in a flight or static photo there is really no way I could tell if it was made from a kit or scratch built.

What it comes down to is that this rocket company (FlisKits) and the products we sell are my bread-n-butter. Every time someone likes one of my designs and then builds it themselves without making a purchase it is one less kit I am selling. If I add up enough of the kits I *don't* sell because folks wish to clone them then I will eventually simply have to close the doors and go out of business.

And, believe me, there is *not* a whole lot of margin in those numbers

I got your PM, thank you. If you like the kit drop me a note. I have a box full of'em

warmest regards,
jim

[JPVegh]

Mr. Flis, I believe that not only are you the hardest working man in rocketry you are also the classiest.