LDRS 32

I do not see the rules a being restrictive.

The rules we set so we do not have flyers showing up with the mindset that it is Black Rock and anything goes.

The issues with the do 50k and prove it if you want to do 100k is not really an issue, last year we had, IIRC, 2 rockets over 100 at BALLS. 99% of those that say they are going to do 100k+ are just talking. Those that really do it work up to that altitude and do not just throw a rocket up there.
No Class 3 Odd roc, does that affect anyone?
No Class 3 three stages, it is incredibly rare for one to work and the failures are potentially really bad.
The rest are just plan ahead and send in your info for approval. If you do not think it will be approved maybe you should not launch it anywhere.

We already have one M Odd rock approved.

We have charged everyone who attends BALLS since 1998.

Mark

MClark said:

We have charged everyone who attends BALLS since 1998.

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BALLS is different and spectators are discouraged. I think people are used to LDRS being free or minimal costs for non-participants. I don't blame Tripoli Gerlach for charging spectators. I do think it will result in less of a family type event although if someone is willing to spend hundreds or thousands for a family trip to LDRS the $30 spectator fee will be a minimal part of their expense.

Green Jello said:

It says $30 for spectators. Is there an age minimum for this? Are real little guys free or less?

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I'd say no, since the registration page says this "BLM FEE on Playa without a Wristband (all persons young or old) $30.00" Sounds to me like the BLM doesn't care if you're 2 months, 2 years, 20, or 90. They're gonna charge you the same fee, regardless. That fee is being passed on to the spectator.

-Kevin

Some questions, based on reviewing the website...

1) The $50 fliers fee appears to include the BLM fee for the flier. Is this accurate?

2) What will there be for pads, in terms of rods, rails, towers, etc? Nothing about this is mentioned.

3) Parking spots are identified on the flight line. Are they first-come at the time you show up at the range? Or do you reserve them in advance, somehow?

Thanks!

-Kevin

troj said:

Some questions, based on reviewing the website...

1) The $50 fliers fee appears to include the BLM fee for the flier. Is this accurate?

2) What will there be for pads, in terms of rods, rails, towers, etc? Nothing about this is mentioned.

3) Parking spots are identified on the flight line. Are they first-come at the time you show up at the range? Or do you reserve them in advance, somehow?

Thanks!

-Kevin

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Yes

The plan is for the usual suspects, Mod roc stuff, 1/4 & 1/2" rods, 1010, 1515, Unistrut. No rails over 8 feet. No towers.
If you need a long rail, tower or something else bring it or make arrangements with someone.
We have a wireless system to control all of the range including awaycells.

You need to contact TRA Gerlach. I have nothing to do with that side of the range. https://www.tripoligerlach.org/

M

I had questions about parking, too.... a mere 1000' of flightline - when BALLS and XPRS stretch for triple that - seems short. That and 15' wide spaces will make for a nasty density. (that means only 7' between RV's!)

I know "it's not BALLS" but there isn't a shortage of space here.


All the best, James

I looked at the website again and here is what it says about parking: Participant Parking/Prep Areas - Reserved areas are pre-defined for specific occupants and reasons. All other space in the parking and prep areas are on a first-come, first-grabbed basis. All Vendors areas will be pre-reserved on a first-come, first-reserved notification. (Italics added by me.)

This last BALLS we went to a point where the line thins out and paced it back to center. 500 feet. It may go 1000 each way the the cars are 50+ apart at the ends.
Typically at BALLS there is a single row except for a bit in the center, so 4 rows will be a lot more.
I had nothing to do with the layout other than the above pacing. The other members of Gerlach do not post here or anywhere.

On that map my spot is marked.

Mark

Fdog said:

I had questions about parking, too.... a mere 1000' of flightline - when BALLS and XPRS stretch for triple that - seems short. That and 15' wide spaces will make for a nasty density. (that means only 7' between RV's!)

I know "it's not BALLS" but there isn't a shortage of space here.

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Apparently the BLM is requiring the 1000 foot flight line. This was what was explained to me at BALLS last fall. I doubt they will limit folks with RVs to just one space, but you'll have to ask the organizers that question.

I don't typically go to LDRS in the west due to distance and the fact I go to BALLS every year, but Blackrock is a great place for rockets and my friend convinced me to go.

Thanks for the replies!

The 3000' came out of our GPS when we walked the line last year. <shrugs> It is what it is, we'll attend and have a good time.


All the best, James

THE RULES for those that may not know as copied from the official web site.

www.ldrs32.com


Under Class 3

All O impulse rockets must be approved in advance (2) by LDRS Special Projects Coordinator.
Multistage over M total impulse must be approved in advance (2) by LDRS Special Projects Coordinator.
Flyer/Team must have a successful (1) track record with multistage rockets.
All stages must have a CG/CP of 10% + of length of rocket
First stage minimum 8 G's off pad.

Odd Rockets

All odd rockets over K must be approved in advance (2) by LDRS Special Projects Coordinator.
All odd rockets over K must have been launched successfully Full scale or Subscale (3).
Maximum decent rate is 30 ft/sec.

Mass Launches (Drag Races)
(3 or more rockets intended to be launched simultaneously)

Rockets will be launched from the complex distance for the total impulse of the group
Total impulse of the group shall not exceed O, 40,860Nsec
No more than 10 rockets will be attempted to be launched at one time. (Thought we set a maximum of four?) This means all the rockets in the first group have landed before a second group is launched.
No Odd Rockets.
All must have active recovery with a decent rate not greater than 30&#8217;/sec Flyers must have previously successfully launched and recovered a rocket of the same or great er impulse
No multi stage or clusters.
Drag races with any rocket in the group having L or greater impulse must be approved in advance (2) by LDRS Special Projects Coordinator.

Away Cells

Away Cells will be permitted on Saturday and Sunday only.
Must be approved in advance (2) by LDRS Special Projects Coordinator
No children under 18 are allowed at the Away Cells.
No non-Tripoli members are allowed in the Away Cells.

Photographers

All photographers not associated with a specific flight must be approved by the LDRS 32 Committee in advance and will be given identifying vests as clearance.

Notes:

&#8226;(1) Successful = straight boost, parachutes deployed and recovered undamaged. As in a good cert launch.
&#8226;(2) Advance = Must be submitted no later than 1 month before launch
&#8226;(3) Subscale = 25% (linear dimensions) or larger of rocket to be launched
&#8226;(4) Range Boss = Chief PM


now i asked a couple questions somewhere else and they got lost in the political mumbo jumbo.

1 registration fees for every one including kids not flying.

ANSWER: YES ALL FLYERS AND NON FLYERS HAVE TO REGISTER AND PAY TO ATTEND AND SPECTATE.

2 NAR MEMBERS not allowed at away cells on non research days. If a nar member wanted to participate either in a mass launch or has a complex project that would fall within their cert L3 (say a cluster or airstart with 20,000+ns requiring an away cell distance they would not be able to do so even on "everybody" fly days.

ANSWER. SEE POST 111 Dont bring your big projects unless your TRA period...

Just thought the masses would like to know

No non-Tripoli members are allowed in the Away Cells.
The regular pads will be out as far as 1000 feet.

I see no reason to discuss hypothetical cases.

Mark

txcple said:

not hypothetical. 1000 ft is not enough since min safe distance for a complex n is 1500 ft. but okay. thank you for making the decision for me on if i will attend.

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OK, you are welcome

Are you launching a complex N?
You are a TRA member, you can go to an away cell

Green Jello said:

I convinced my father in law to come, so I get an RV this time! Weeeeeeeeeeee!

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You rock! I am jealous !

Kenny

i was thinking about it. 8" dia x 13ft with 4 76mm loki M's (2 M1882 whites, then 2 M1200 Spitfires 1 sec post liftoff) max alt 15k. max velocity less than 1200 fps. still in the planning building stage.

so 2 M's = N
2 M's = N
4 M's equal complex O 22,851.2 or am i miscalculating something in the rules.

i may not be a member by the time LDRS rolls around TRA EXPIRED, and my NAR L3 is good till 2015

You need to add up the Nsec of each motor and then see the letter class it is. 4 M motors is going to fall in the O range
Of course complex because it is a cluster (or multistage in other cases)

Mark

atxcple said:

your right 22,851.2 total installed hense the need for the away cell.

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2000 feet out

your regular pads per the website go out to 1000 ft so wouldnt the need for 2000 be a away cell?

this is why i asked the question. not to be argumentative but so i can finalize details on if i want to complete this for LDRS this year. it really fits what LDRS projects are meant to be. (not super hi performance, not super fast, not extremly complex with EX motors). Light 2 airstart 2 way less of a headache than my past multi motor birds (try getting 8 to light on the ground...PITA)

Yes it does fit what we want for big rockets.
Being a complex O it would be launched from a away cell at 2000 feet per the safety code, both NAR & TRA.
The range rules are, we will have away cells on Saturday and Sunday and anyone at the cells must be a TRA member. You will need to pay your TRA dues or launch at another venue.

Man i miss the days when it didnt matter who your cert was with NAR, TRA, CAR your level was your level. not go here if you belong to this group.

thank you for the last straight forward answer pertaining to away cells. as i still dont get the reasoning as it is not a Balls event nor research days. but its their launch their rules

MClark said:

The range rules are, we will have away cells on Saturday and Sunday and anyone at the cells must be a TRA member. You will need to pay your TRA dues or launch at another venue.

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Mark,

Is this true? Looking at the LDRS 32 website it says that Saturday and Sunday will be flown under TRA Commercial rules which do not limit access to high power pads for NAR members.

If indeed this is true, why did the launch organizers put this restriction in place?

Bob Brown
TRA 6909

The rule for no non TRA at the away cells is from TRA Gerlach.

MClark said:

The rule for no non TRA at the away cells is from TRA Gerlach.

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any answer for why this decision to ban NAR and CAR members from the away cells on days that are TRA commercial days by the host club?

He's already said that the decision was made by Tripoli Gerlach, and that they don't post here. You would probably be better off emailing them directly.

This a TRA launch. And I don't see where their restrictions are a problem to NAR or CAR members.Just don't attend if it is a problem with your Personally chosen single organization.
I personally know a long time Florida BLM employee for Burning Man. This guy is employed a month before and after to clean up after the people that are using Black Rock..not just Rocket Flyers.
The BLM also charges Vendors at BM a percentage fee on retail sales...I don't think that is charged to TRA flyers ( I could be wrong)
Please folks ..understand how many idiots have made fools of themselves launching projects that were WAY beyond their experience and ability..Just because they could.
And it just turned into a big cato or shred.
Flyers not taking the baby steps into the record books and being impatient and just flying something they could just because these boundries weren't set.
In the past we didn't have these wealthy flyers like the Gates Brothers having a blank check book with Aerotech.
l.
Give these LDRS and BALLS guys a break and let them run a serious launch in a serious manner.
I'm sorry, but if you are this far into the hobby (or beyond with serious Altitude attempts)..maybe your wife and kids should stay at home.
If this is a serious problem with your family...Maybe you should not consider projects this big.
If you are doing an experimental or Research flight ...your family is just a Distraction.
Get your own private waiver.
If you do your research there have been TOO Many Clowns that could have damaged this Hobby...one that is brought to mind was a valuable member of a Cali or Nevada organization..
He put a rocket into a BLM owned vehicles tire.Through BOTH sidewalls!:y:
The tire wasn't one of our soft ones..more like a thick Jeep tire.

JStitz said:

If you do your research there have been TOO Many Clowns that could have damaged this Hobby...one that is brought to mind was a valuable member of a Cali or Nevada organization..
He put a rocket into a BLM owned vehicles tire.Through BOTH sidewalls!:y:
The tire wasn't one of our soft ones..more like a thick Jeep tire.

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This tire is a yard ornament in Gerlach. It sits in the front yard of either Bruno's house, or Bruno's daughter, can't remember which.
It's located between the motel and restaurant, keep an eye out for it.

R

AZ_Ron said:

This tire is a yard ornament in Gerlach. It sits in the front yard of either Bruno's house, or Bruno's daughter, can't remember which.
It's located between the motel and restaurant, keep an eye out for it.

R

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You mean this?

oint::surprised: WOW! That's the first picture of it I ever saw...just like the broom straw stuck through the palm tree in a tornado.

Forgive my rant about Balls.It had no political basis.:rant:

In the past several years there have been some awesome altitude flights that were done by flyers that truly did their homework and they deserve the praise.
It was directed at what Mark,Robin and the others have had to put up with.
I sometimes wonder how they do it without exhaustion.
John