Why does nobody use Liquid-Propellant rockets?

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And another thought... Why is it that the "real rockets" (cause ours are real rockets) use Liquid motors, when a solid motor is far simpler to implement? I know that liquids have a lower thrust/longer burn time, but the added complexity for the gain of longer burn time seems silly. There's now way the thrust/weight ratio for a liquid can be anywhere near that of a solid.

Because liquid propellants have MUCH more energy than solid propellants and are MUCH more efficient. The main motivator in large rockets (IE "real" space cargo rockets) is SPECIFIC IMPULSE (ISP). This is basically a measure of fuel economy, but it goes beyond that... it has to do with how much energy the propellants can produce and how well that can be converted into propulsive effort... Thrust is only PART of the equation... ISP quickly becomes MUCH more important than thrust as the rocket ascends. High (maximum possible) thrust is only important basically at liftoff, as the rocket needs sufficient thrust to get up and moving and "punch through" the dense lower atmosphere (fighting gravity and aerodynamic drag and accelerating the rocket). As the rocket burns off propellant, it accelerates faster and faster, because the rocket engines have to push a lighter and lighter vehicle... Gee loads start building, and the rocket fairly soon either has to throttle down the engines, or shut down one or more of them to keep the acceleration gee forces in check. This can be done in several ways; for solids it has to be "designed into" the motor by using propellants with different burn rates in different parts of the motor, or by the design of the core cavity, or both. Some liquid engines, like SSME, throttle down, but this complicates the engine design since it has to be DESIGNED to be able to do this. Other engines like F-1 couldn't throttle, so the Saturn V merely shut down the center engine partway through the first stage burn to minimize the gee loads on the rocket. Once the rocket is through Max-Q (maximum aerodynamic drag and pressure on the rocket) it's mainly fighting gravity, as air drag starts falling off. At this point, ISP starts becoming more and more important to how the rocket performs, and how much payload it can lift. Usually about this time, the first stage burns out (be it solid or liquid) and the second stage takes over.

For the second stage, usually the engines have larger expansion ratios and larger engine nozzles, to make better use of the propellants at higher altitudes, since usually by the time the rocket stages, the engines are then operating basically in a vacuum for all intents and purposes. (Using larger nozzles at ground level isn't an option, as they'd be over-expanded and suffer flow separation inside the nozzle from the air pressure pushing inward on the rocket exhaust flow, creating turbulence. Likewise, nozzles optimized for sea-level operation are under-expanded in a vacuum and don't capture as much of the propulsive energy as they could from the rocket exhaust, which expands much more at altitude than at sea-level. SSME's used on the shuttle are a tradeoff between underexpansion and overexpansion; they're over-expanded at sea level and under-expanded in a vacuum). Note also that the thrust/weight ratio doesn't have to be anywhere NEAR as high on "real" space rockets as on our model rockets... thrust/weight ratios on liquid propellant large space rockets are usually in the 1.10:1 to 1.25:1 ratio. Typically thrust/weight ratios (T/W) is about 1:1 on second stages, maybe a little higher. Going too low on the T/W ratio actually loses energy and efficiency to gravity losses on ascent (remember the force of gravity is pulling everything down with an acceleration of 32.2 ft/sec squared, so if the T/W is less than 1:1 on an upper stage (flying perfectly vertical, which most do not-- that's where proper trajectory modeling and good guidance comes in) will actually DECELERATE until the T/W>1:1. SO, thrust isn't AS important, because the rocket is already MUCH lighter (since the first stage and it's propellant weight is long gone) and is getting lighter all the time, since it's constantly burning off propellants. ISP, on the other hand, becomes MUCH more important! Once a vehicle is in space (in orbit or in deep space on some kind of transfer trajectory) ISP is KING, and thrust is relatively unimportant... That's why upper stages (like the S-IVB on Saturn V, or Centaur on Atlas) can have relatively low-thrust engines compared to their weight (including payload)-- at that point, ISP is the most important, because the lower the ISP, the more propellant it takes to do the same amount of work, and the larger and heavier the tanks have to be to hold that propellant, and the stronger the stage structures have to be to handle the loads... which all equates to LESS DELIVERABLE PAYLOAD! (Plus, it "back-ripples" down the design of the rocket; larger upper stages require larger first and second stages to lift them, larger (or more) booster rocket motors or larger liquid engines to lift it, etc.) In fact, in-space propulsion stages are INCREDIBLY sensitive to ISP, because each additional pound of weight required for propellants and stage dry mass (tanks and structures) subtracts 1:1 from payload... IOW, every additional pound of weight in the in-space stage equals a pound less payload you can carry! (the lower the stage, the less sensitive the stage is to weight, and therefore ISP, from a payload capabilities standpoint... IIRC, on Saturn V, shaving a pound of weight off the third stage got you an extra pound of payload to the moon-- for the second stage, you'd have to shave off about 3-4 pounds to get an extra pound of payload to the moon, and you'd have to shave off like 11 pounds on the first stage to get an extra pound of payload... This is why having solid rockets on the FIRST stage (or booster rockets) isn't particularly critical, but you DO NOT want solids on upper stages (if you can help it!)

ISP isn't JUST determined by how much energy the propellants produce when they burn (how energetic the reaction is) but ALSO by the weight of the byproduct gases in the rocket exhaust. A lighter byproduct molecule from the burned propellants, like a lightweight car with a big motor in it, can accelerate MUCH faster and to a higher speed than a heavy car can with the same motor. That's part of the "theoretical ISP" of different propellant combinations... hydrogen and oxygen burning together give one of the highest theoretical ISP's available, because it produces a LOT of energy when burned, and the byproduct molecules can accelerate easily to higher velocities. Hydrocarbon based propellants like kerosene, on the other hand, have carbon atoms, which are heavy, in their exhausts, and thus accelerate less and are somewhat less energetic and less efficient in combustion, meaning lower theoretical ISP. Propellant combinations of various storable propellants are either even less energetic, or less efficient in combustion, therefore accelerating their exhaust gases less and resulting in less ISP. Solid propellants have the LOWEST ISP of ANY of the propellants... their combustion is usually pretty inefficient, the byproduct gases are heavier and slower to accelerate, and thus produce less energy per pound of propellant than other propellant combinations.

There are other factors to propellant choices than just thrust and ISP, important as they are. Part of it deals with the complexity of the system, the requirements of the system, and the characteristics of the propellants themselves. For instance, solid propellant rockets are EXTREMELY heavy... they must have their propellants mixed and poured or cast in a special factory, and be moved FULLY FUELED and ready to burn, from the factory to the launching pad. Liquid propellant rockets are transported EMPTY and are therefore MUCH lighter and safer than solids. All this can have HUGE effects on your supporting infrastructure. For instance, the VAB at KSC in Florida, where the Saturn V's were assembled, used to have offices inside with large staffs. When shuttle replaced Saturn, with its large SRB's, those offices had to be put elsewhere, due to the safety dangers of handling the large SRB's. The crawlers, which moved huge Saturn V's empty (but complete with cargo) were stressed to near the limits hauling the extremely heavy shuttle SRB's fully fueled to the launching pads, so much so that putting the cargo into the shuttle was done at the pads (well, that's PART of the reason anyway). Making an even LARGER rocket than Shuttle using even larger (or more) SRB's requires an all-new six-truck crawler, and even IT will be nearly maxed out... so the rocket won't be able to grow much in the future for additional power when it's needed. Liquid rockets, being moved empty, don't have these limitations (not anywhere near as limited anyway) and thus can EASILY grow in the future with larger stages, longer stages, or add-on liquid (or even solid) boosters if necessary later on.

The propellant choice also greatly depends on the demands and operating conditions of the system. For instance, say manuevering engines, like the SPS on the Apollo, the LMDE (descent engine) on the LM, or the LMAE (ascent engine) on the Lunar Module, or the OMS engines on the shuttle... or RCS thrusters on Apollo, the LM, or Shuttle-- these engines need to be EXTREMELY reliable, and as simple as possible (for lighter weight, but mostly for reliability); their absolute efficiency isn't as important, so a lower ISP is less important than high reliability and simplicity. That's why these engines use storable liquid propellants like hydrazine, nitrogen tetroxide, hydrogen peroxide, etc... things that, while highly toxic, can remain liquids without boiling off in space like cryogenic liquid propellants like liquid hydrogen and liquid oxygen do, and which are usually HYPERGOLIC, meaning they burst into flame and combust on contact with each other, eliminating the need for ignitors or other devices to start the engine up when needed. Sometimes it's a tradeoff, because the LM could have hauled MUCH MUCH more cargo had it been designed to use LH2 (liquid hydrogen) and LOX, BUT, the problems associated with storage and handling of these propellants in deep space during the three day transit to the moon (and accounting for propellant boiloff, which must be vented to prevent the tanks from exploding from the excess pressure, which means you have a more complex system and have to carry more fuel than you need to account for boiloff) would have made the already incredibly complex LM design HUGELY more complex... so the choice was made to just use lower-efficiency storable propellants that were much simpler and safer... but which couldn't deliver as much performance or as much cargo to the moon's surface... but which also didn't need a complex storage system or complicated engine-startup to get the astronauts back off the moon, either... the LMAE actually had a backup system in case the main engine start system didn't work, which basically just popped the valves open to the engine, allowing it to start instantly-- can't do that with a hydrogen engine!

A lot of times you'll see solid "kick motors" used to boost satellites or space probes to their final transfer orbits or trajectories... this is where the simplicity of a solid motor outweighs its natural inefficiency. That's why Von Braun used clusters of Sargeant solid rocket motors to inject the first US satellite Explorer I into orbit in 1958, and why some satellite launchers still use small final "kick motors" even today. Of course, for LARGE propulsion jobs like accelerating a lightweight vehicle over a long period of time, the incredibly high ISP benefits of ion engines, Hall-effect electric thrusters, solar-electric propulsion, nuclear-electric propulsion, and such REALLY shine because of the incredibly efficient usage of the propellants, meaning only relatively very small amounts of propellants are required (and even then, some propellants are more efficient than others, and some tradeoffs come into play... different propellants include LH2, ammonia, argon, etc...) The problem with these extremely efficient engines is, their thrust is TINY compared to chemical rocket engines burning propellants and expelling them out the back... so the acceleration force they can provide is tiny, though they can operate continuously for MONTHS and over time, that tiny acceleration adds up! They don't scale well, though, which limits what they can be used for... also, it limits the size of the spacecraft you can use them on... for instance, a manned spacecraft needs to quickly traverse the Van Allen Radiation Belts surrounding Earth, so a high-thrust chemical engine is needed to quickly accelerate the vehicle to the moon (or elsewhere). An unmanned cargo vehicle, lander, or spacecraft probe, however, can take MONTHS spiralling out to the moon or elsewhere in the solar system under the low but incredibly efficient thrust of ion or electric propulsion, so long as the electronics are designed to handle the radiation. The ultimate in high-thrust, high-efficiency (high ISP) rocket engines are nuclear thermal propulsion, which has been successfully developed and tested in the US and Soviet Union (our NERVA engines of the 60's were successful but canceled). The hazards of radiation contamination make them unsuitable for use in Earth's atmosphere, and the risks of a rocket malfunction spreading radioactive materials in the event the rocket blew up during launch draws the ire of the environmentalists, plus nuclear propulsion in space is a political hot-potato due to the treaties we have in place against nuclear proliferation in space...

Hope this clears it up for you!

Later! OL JR :)
 
The tanks can derive their structural rigidity simply from the pressurised liquid, so they don't need much in the way of mechanical support. Blue Streak's skin was not much thicker than a Coke can.
At 1:20 in this film
https://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/films/1951to1964/filmpage_rocket.htm
you can see the chap shoving it with one hand.
I believe Atlas was similar.

Ah, Blue Streak... England's version of "Atlas"... :) Neat looking rocket... they even looked alike (Blue Streak sorta looked like an Atlas and a Titan got frisky behind a barn somewhere, and that's what they produced 9 months later :))

Had a buddy who was an Atlas missile tech in the late 50's early 60's... he told me about their "ritual" with the newbs... you had to smack an Atlas with a rubber mallet, and try not to knock yourself out when it bounced back... Atlas's skin, which doubled as it's propellant tank walls, was stainless steel thinner than a dime... they were kept constantly pressurized to prevent them from collapsing like a balloon and destroying the missile... (unless they were in a special cradle that supported them halfway around the diameter of the rocket on its side, making the upper half into a self-supporting arch). The rubber mallet would bounce back off the skin of the missile with pretty good THWACK! because the pressurized skin would pop right back out when smacked...

Later! OL JR :)
 
With modern materials, there isn't really enough advantage to this to make up for the handling and transport issues a balloon tank has. The Atlas V has changed to a rigid self-supporting structure.

This is true, to an extent. A large portion of the strength of a rocket's propellant tanks, even today, is derived from pressurizing the tank to make it more rigid... I don't know of a single liquid propellant rocket flying today that doesn't use the pressurization of the propellant tanks to "stiffen up" the structure enough to fly... it's sorta like a car tire... a tire can remain "self supporting" sitting on a rack, but it can't support any EXTRA WEIGHT until it's correctly inflated. Same thing with rocket tanks. Once you "inflate" a rocket tank with 30-40 PSI of pressurant gas (nitrogen or helium, depending on the propellant, usually) the tanks become INCREDIBLY strong and rigid and can support enormous loads and weights above them. Plus, pressurizing the tanks increases the propellant flow into the turbopumps, reducing the line size requirements and minimizing cavitation at the turbopump impeller face, which can be a HUGE design issue. Of course, like a tire, the higher the pressure, the thicker the walls have to be... so usually you keep it below about 50 PSI, usually considerably less. Pressure-fed rockets don't require turbopumps at all, BUT require MASSIVE, thick tank walls to contain the couple hundred PSI of head pressure required to inject the propellants directly into the rocket engine, and thus aren't usually suitable to large rocket designs (plus lower injection pressures and lower combustion chamber pressures (which must be lower than the tank pressure for the propellant to flow into the combustion chamber usually mean a poor-performing, lower thrust, LOW ISP rocket engine, meaning poor efficiency and poor payload capabilities). This, coupled with the use of inefficient lower ISP storable propellants on their upper stages, was why the Soviet N-1 Moon rocket was SO huge that it was larger than Saturn V but could only lift a fraction of the weight Saturn V could... the lower stages were designed using SPHERICAL propellant tanks, which are the most efficient and easiest to design and engineer when it comes to pressure vessels, (much simpler than designing dome-ended cylindrical tanks like those used on Saturn V's, especially in the size tanks that were needed for rockets the size of the Saturn V and N-1.) These spherical tanks, while structurally efficient and easier to design, were also much larger in diameter and thus gave the N-1 it's peculiar shape, and required larger and heavier intertank structures to connect the fuel and oxidizer tanks together into a stage, making the stage much larger and heavier than it needed to be were harder to design and build but more structurally efficient overall domed cylindrical tanks like those on Saturn V were used... The hypergolic storable propellants on the upper stages of N-1 were FAR less efficient ISP-wise than the high-ISP liquid hydrogen and oxygen propellants used on the upper stages of Saturn V as well, which meant N-1 needed four stages to propel a much smaller 2-man lunar Soyuz and 1 man Korabl lander to the moon, than the Saturn V which could propel a larger 3 man Apollo and 2-man LM to the moon.

Modern Aluminum-lithium isogrid tankage is FAR more lightweight and stronger than the aluminum alloys used in the Apollo days, and improvements like friction-stir welding make lighter and stronger tanks than old robotic arc-welded tanks like those used on Apollo... even composite tanks are being used in some applications and hold significant promise for the future...

Balloon tanks have sort of fallen out of favor, but upper stages STILL are designed on the hairy edge of what's possible as "self-supporting" (meaning that the stage wouldn't collapse into a heap of twisted metal if the pressurization system fails, as Atlas would (and the original Centaur-- BUT, IIRC, the modern Centaur is still only "partially" self-supporting-- it will not collapse if it's UPRIGHT without pressurization, but must be HANDLED pressurized to maintain rigidity... or be in a special cradle when horizontal).

Interesting topic... personally I LOVE balloon tank designs...they're the most structurally efficient ones out there, and if you do the design work right, they work perfectly (as Atlas well proved!)

Later! OL JR :)
 
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So I've started looking into this on a *slightly* more serious level. I do not plan on constructing this, do not fear. Although, if the opportunity arises, I would like to develop it out of sheer "awesome" factor. And if it were cheap enough, just think about what you could do with it! Alas... I've learned my lessons with dangerous/complex things in the past, and this will not be undertaken anytime in the foreseeable future. Oh, and my wallet can only really support the purchase of a few L1 motors twice a month :D

Anyway, the designs involving a third tank of helium (the pressure cycle) seems the most viable for a hobby rocket. (sort of) no major moving parts except for valves. But then there's the problem of cooling the nozzle/combustion chamber. The temperatures here are at a point where our paper body tubes would simply auto-ignite. Ouch.

Oh, and LOX looks like delightful stuff. I'd rather not play with that. A few youtube searches have earned it 2nd place on my "nasty chemicals" list, pure Hydrogen peroxide being the first, and third to the stuff they used to start the SR-71 engines...

Sigh... :flyingpig:
 
Unfortunately "nasty chemicals" pretty much covers the entire spectrum of practical liquid rocket fuels. It's often their nastiness that makes them good fuels in the first place. Kerosene and LOX are probably the safest combination in regular use, and making that work is a major engineering challenge. "Simple" engines tend to use things that are so nasty they will happily explode without much prodding. Hydrazine, Hydrogen Peroxide, Nitric Acid, etc.

PR11.jpg


I'd hate to imagine what would happen if that guy dropped that bottle or some of it splashed on him.

PR11.jpg
 
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Luke, thanks for the very nice posts!

I've always thought the challanges of a liquid engine and support systems would be a lot of fun, provided one had the place to do it and to test it.

Our hybrids are often fairly close to a liquid monopropellant system, where the fuel grain is really more of just an igniter and ablative chamber liner. Any N2O hybrid working with an ISP not much over 170 likely fits in this category. Anyway, kudos to the Rattworks people for their fairly simple tribrid design, and getting what is essentially a liquid propellant motor through the certification process.

Gerald
 
kudos to the Rattworks people for their fairly simple tribrid design, and getting what is essentially a liquid propellant motor through the certification process.

Do they still produce hybrid motors? I have not seen a hybrid, outside of hypertek, in ages.
 
Unfortunately "nasty chemicals" pretty much covers the entire spectrum of practical liquid rocket fuels. It's often their nastiness that makes them good fuels in the first place. Kerosene and LOX are probably the safest combination in regular use, and making that work is a major engineering challenge. "Simple" engines tend to use things that are so nasty they will happily explode without much prodding. Hydrazine, Hydrogen Peroxide, Nitric Acid, etc.

PR11.jpg


I'd hate to imagine what would happen if that guy dropped that bottle or some of it splashed on him.

Doesn't look particularly safe... most of the time if you're handling common rocket fuels, especially room-temp storables and hypergols, you'd be wearing a hazmat suit...

Read the stories about the pilots of the ME-163 Komet... they were rocket powered, using C-stoff (a mixture of hydrazine, methanol, water, and a poisonous catalyst) and T-stoff (rocket grade peroxide, which is HIGHLY concentrated hydrogen peroxide, which is quite unstable and can automatically degrade in a hyperthermic reaction into water, oxygen, and STEAM at high temperature!) The two propellants are hypergolic and burst into flames on contact.) The rocketplane was lightly built, and used skids for landing instead of wheels, so they landed very rough-- broken or damaged fuel lines leading to leaks could be deadly... as well as the constant risk of combat damage-- a stray bullet piercing a propellant line or the tanks or leaks could end up poisoning the pilot (with the highly toxic hydrazine, made worse by the cyanide catalyst) or getting the peroxide dripped on you was capable of dissolving the flesh off the bones of the body...

If you've ever seen the movie "Thirteen Days" where the Russians are preparing the Cuban IRBM's for launch, you can see them wearing NBC suits while fueling the SS-4 Sandals with RFNA (red fuming nitric acid) oxidizer... nasty stuff...

Later! OL JR :)
 
Alex,

As you're right in the same town as the other UNH, check out what they have in their engineering facility for such R&D. It couldn't hurt. :bangpan:

Kenn
 
Alex,

As you're right in the same town as the other UNH, check out what they have in their engineering facility for such R&D. It couldn't hurt. :bangpan:

Kenn

I'm sure this would make a great joint senior project... I do know we have a GIANT wind tunnel. I'm going to use this to test out my idea of active stabilization with control surfaces before I fly it. Depressingly, I'm an EE planning to go into the wide world of uWave communications and control systems. The ME's don't let me play with their toys :(

I'll bounce the idea around with some people. If there's enough of an electrical aspect, this would make an absolutely killer senior project.
 
I'm sure this would make a great joint senior project... I do know we have a GIANT wind tunnel. I'm going to use this to test out my idea of active stabilization with control surfaces before I fly it. Depressingly, I'm an EE planning to go into the wide world of uWave communications and control systems. The ME's don't let me play with their toys :(

I'll bounce the idea around with some people. If there's enough of an electrical aspect, this would make an absolutely killer senior project.

Offer to help some MEs get through their required EE courses (I had to withdraw from one and take it as a night class) and you may get access to the cool kid's stuff. You can certainly work all kinds of electrical ideas into many rocket projects; Scott is saving up for more launch equipment for MMMSC - some home-made may allow him to get rails, rods and pads. Just begging. :wink:
 
Offer to help some MEs get through their required EE courses (I had to withdraw from one and take it as a night class) and you may get access to the cool kid's stuff. You can certainly work all kinds of electrical ideas into many rocket projects; Scott is saving up for more launch equipment for MMMSC - some home-made may allow him to get rails, rods and pads. Just begging. :wink:

I'd love to construct Y'all a launch controller, if that's what you're talking about :D

And a bunch of my friends are ME's just as obsessed with rockets as I am (Although I have the job, so usually they just watch me launch mine). I could convince them...
 
Offer to help some MEs get through their required EE courses (I had to withdraw from one and take it as a night class) and you may get access to the cool kid's stuff. You can certainly work all kinds of electrical ideas into many rocket projects; Scott is saving up for more launch equipment for MMMSC - some home-made may allow him to get rails, rods and pads. Just begging. :wink:


I've heard that even an ME can build a launch controller.
 
Doesn't look particularly safe... most of the time if you're handling common rocket fuels, especially room-temp storables and hypergols, you'd be wearing a hazmat suit...

Read the stories about the pilots of the ME-163 Komet... they were rocket powered, using C-stoff (a mixture of hydrazine, methanol, water, and a poisonous catalyst) and T-stoff (rocket grade peroxide, which is HIGHLY concentrated hydrogen peroxide, which is quite unstable and can automatically degrade in a hyperthermic reaction into water, oxygen, and STEAM at high temperature!) The two propellants are hypergolic and burst into flames on contact.) The rocketplane was lightly built, and used skids for landing instead of wheels, so they landed very rough-- broken or damaged fuel lines leading to leaks could be deadly... as well as the constant risk of combat damage-- a stray bullet piercing a propellant line or the tanks or leaks could end up poisoning the pilot (with the highly toxic hydrazine, made worse by the cyanide catalyst) or getting the peroxide dripped on you was capable of dissolving the flesh off the bones of the body...

If you've ever seen the movie "Thirteen Days" where the Russians are preparing the Cuban IRBM's for launch, you can see them wearing NBC suits while fueling the SS-4 Sandals with RFNA (red fuming nitric acid) oxidizer... nasty stuff...

Later! OL JR :)
If that stuff is T-Stoff, a bath full of water should be standard equipment as it was for fuelling Blue Steel. Straight in before you caught fire.
 
I am pretty impressed with what some folks come up with. It is just not a skill I have.

Nor I. That's the EE to whom I was referring. Technically, my degree is in EE, but that's only because the computer stuff was taught by the EE department. I couldn't design a circuit to save my life and I could do serious harm to myself with a soldering iron in my hand.
 
The wiring on one of our club sailboats was done by a retired EE professor. Which is to say, it wasn't done very well. :wink:
 
Reading some of the RRS reports, they had to heat 85% hydrogen proxide to 137F during fueling. Hydrogen peroxide undergoes rapid decomposition into oxygen and a lot of heat (A very dangerous combination) at 140F. :y:

Hydrogen peroxide of that concentration will also immediately burst into flames if it comes into contact with your skin or clothing.

That's not true, I got 90% H2O2 on my skin. It turns it kind of white, very quickly. Your skin dries out over the next couple of days, then it disappears like nothing happened. As long as you have a nearby water source and proper pressure relief valves, the danger of H2O2 is heavily negated. All I had to do was run water over my skin to dilute it when I got it on my arm.
 
That's not true, I got 90% H2O2 on my skin. It turns it kind of white, very quickly. Your skin dries out over the next couple of days, then it disappears like nothing happened. As long as you have a nearby water source and proper pressure relief valves, the danger of H2O2 is heavily negated. All I had to do was run water over my skin to dilute it when I got it on my arm.

At LDRS, there was a demonstration of the Go-Fast rocket belt. Later, that evening at the banquet, one of the original Bell pilots gave a presentation of the history of the program. His slides included pictures of burns that a couple of the pilots had gotten when H2O2 had gotten on their skin. It was NOT pretty.

178024_3401507759559_1586312785_o.jpg
 
At LDRS, there was a demonstration of the Go-Fast rocket belt. Later, that evening at the banquet, one of the original Bell pilots gave a presentation of the history of the program. His slides included pictures of burns that a couple of the pilots had gotten when H2O2 had gotten on their skin. It was NOT pretty.

Doesn't that take almost pure H202?
Awesome device by the way. I want one :cool:
 
90%



Getting the belt itself isn't an issue, from the sounds of it. Getting the fuel, however, is -- apparently the government watches those who have 90% H2O2 very closely.

-Kevin

So, how difficult would it be to distill 90% H2O2 from a lower concentration?
 
My recollection is that left to itself, high concentration H2O2 will increase in concentration as the H2O evaporates faster. Don't anybody trust my recollection on this one though!

One doesn't need 90% H2O2 though of course that is better than lower concentrations. I believe I've read about motors being made down to around 50%. Not very efficient at the lower concentration of course. Were I doing it, I'd probably aim somewhere around 70% as it is likely much easier to get than 90% as well as being a little bit safer.

Gerald
 
That's not true, I got 90% H2O2 on my skin. It turns it kind of white, very quickly. Your skin dries out over the next couple of days, then it disappears like nothing happened. As long as you have a nearby water source and proper pressure relief valves, the danger of H2O2 is heavily negated. All I had to do was run water over my skin to dilute it when I got it on my arm.
For a drop of two that's correct. Over several square inches you have a permanent scar. Over a larger area, you are in serious trouble.

The solution to peroxide is dilution, immediate dilution. If you had a fitting burst and dump a tank on you, I hope there is someone near by to direct a stream of water on you immediately because within a half a minute or so, your clothes and shoes will be on fire.
At LDRS, there was a demonstration of the Go-Fast rocket belt. Later, that evening at the banquet, one of the original Bell pilots gave a presentation of the history of the program. His slides included pictures of burns that a couple of the pilots had gotten when H2O2 had gotten on their skin. It was NOT pretty.
I was able to talk to Bill Suitor twice during LDRS, and sat with him at the banquet, and had dinner with Nick each evening at LDRS. You are absolutely correct, 2nd and 3rd degree peroxide burns are not pretty.
Doesn't that take almost pure H202?
Awesome device by the way. I want one :cool:
Yes. They use 90% peroxide only and get an isp of 120 s. Anything less concentrated does not provide sufficient thrust, and anything more concentrated generates too much heat and will melt the silver catalyst deciompostion chamber.

The last rocket pack sold for $250,000. A single fuel load costs $2,000, the cost of CTI O motor reload. You get 22 seconds of flight time. That about $100 per seconds, or the average per second cost of a M-impulse rocket flight. It takes about 15-20 tethered flights before you are skilled enough to attempt a free flight, so plan on burning $30,000 to $40,000 of peroxide while you are restrained by ropes. Maybe you could post the project on one of those websites that help folks raise money for their pet projects....
90%

Getting the belt itself isn't an issue, from the sounds of it. Getting the fuel, however, is -- apparently the government watches those who have 90% H2O2 very closely.
-Kevin
Homeland Security to be precise.
So, how difficult would it be to distill 90% H2O2 from a lower concentration?
In theory it's not that hard, however in practice, since peroxide really wants to be H2O and O2, after your first explosion, you really don't want to do it again.
My recollection is that left to itself, high concentration H2O2 will increase in concentration as the H2O evaporates faster. Don't anybody trust my recollection on this one though!

One doesn't need 90% H2O2 though of course that is better than lower concentrations. I believe I've read about motors being made down to around 50%. Not very efficient at the lower concentration of course. Were I doing it, I'd probably aim somewhere around 70% as it is likely much easier to get than 90% as well as being a little bit safer.

Gerald
Hydrogen peroxide is inherently unstable. It decomposes in storage in storage, and all storage containers are vented. Heat, metal ions, and organic matter all increase the rate of composition. As perioxide reacts with various materials, the decomposed materials also catalyze the decomposition. An the higher the concentration, the higher the rate of decompositon, the hgher the temperature rise in the solution and the shorter time to explosition.

Pure Hydrogen Peroxide explodes at 150C. Contaminated peroxide explodes at lower temperature. Pure silver, and other heavy metals, and most organics will cause a near instantenous explosion even at room temperature.

High test peroxide is 98% or greater. It is the stuff used in the most efficient peroxide rockets, however for many reasons, many propulsion applications use 90% because it is slightly easier to handle and decomposes at a slightly lower temperature so less exotic materials can be used for the catalytic cracker. Peroxides below 70% concentratioon are not useful in monopropellant systems as ther is too much water and too little peroxide to make an efficient thruster.

The highest concentration available to the general public is 30%. At this concentration you will not get violent decompositions, although it still will generate chemical burns. For sanitary industrial applications, you can purchase 50% peroxide if you can show a need, but this is the highest concentration where surprise violent decomposition will not occur. Any higher concentrations are considered to be sufficently dangerous for storage and use by untrained professionals, and as such are not available to the general public, including hobby rocket folk.

Bob
 
ISP isn't JUST determined by how much energy the propellants produce when they burn (how energetic the reaction is) but ALSO by the weight of the byproduct gases in the rocket exhaust. A lighter byproduct molecule from the burned propellants, like a lightweight car with a big motor in it, can accelerate MUCH faster and to a higher speed than a heavy car can with the same motor. That's part of the "theoretical ISP" of different propellant combinations... hydrogen and oxygen burning together give one of the highest theoretical ISP's available, because it produces a LOT of energy when burned, and the byproduct molecules can accelerate easily to higher velocities. Hydrocarbon based propellants like kerosene, on the other hand, have carbon atoms, which are heavy, in their exhausts, and thus accelerate less and are somewhat less energetic and less efficient in combustion, meaning lower theoretical ISP. Propellant combinations of various storable propellants are either even less energetic, or less efficient in combustion, therefore accelerating their exhaust gases less and resulting in less ISP. Solid propellants have the LOWEST ISP of ANY of the propellants... their combustion is usually pretty inefficient, the byproduct gases are heavier and slower to accelerate, and thus produce less energy per pound of propellant than other propellant combinations.

I'm not sure I agree with your explanation of the mechanics behind the effect of molecular mass on specific impulse. Although I agree that smaller particles are easier to accelerate on a particle by particle basis one could argue that for a given rocket motor the mass flow on a macroscopic scale could be the same reguardless of the individual molecular weight ie: a dumptruck full of sand is still heavy. Even if the more massive particles did result in a lesser velocity their larger mass might net them an equivelent momentum to an equal effect.

Inspection of the thermodynamics of combustion shows the molecular mass is an input to the specific heats of a given gas, and is indicative of a gases ability to store energy. This exposes the importance of a low molecular weight (other than its in the denominator!). Gasses with less molecules (lower Mol weight) do not have the ability to store as much energy as those with more; those with more can store more energy in more degrees of freedom available thanks to the number of molecules. Although my thermo is rusty I believe storing energy in the translational mode is beneficial in the expansion cone as the conversion of heat to kinetic energy is easier than the other modes. I could be mistaken about that part however.

Further, M appears in the more complicated form of c* which is a characteristic independant of the physical aspects of a rocket motor - another clue to its real effect..
 
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