Kosdon TRM Motors ??

[deandome]

Details below & on Rocketry Planet, but here are the questions.

What are TRM motors..in particular, the 24 & 29mm sizes? Is this system/hardware new, or are these new reloads for old Kosdon/AMW-type hardware (like the Aerotech/Kosdon motors)? Is all this Kosdon...he actually makes & sells them...or is it Kosdon/Aerotech (I can't find any Kosdon Enterprises website)?

I thought Kosdon motors were snap-ring, but I've never seen snap-ring 24 or 29mm stuff. It sounds kinda like these are new loads for an old hardware system..but I can't imagine that they''d rely on that; they'd have to sell new hardware, too.

What gives?



Legend for all lines:

Official Name, TMT Designation, Class metric, Case OD, Length, Total NS, Average, BurnTime, Weight

S = Slow, F = Fast, DH = Dirty Harry

24 MM
H200S-13, H207, 55% H, 24, 383, 247.4, 207.4, 1.2, 117.8
H365F-15, H382, 62% H, 24, 383, 259.1, 381.7, 0.7, 122.3
H470F-P, H511, 84% H, 24, 489, 293.7, 511.2, 0.57, 151

29 MM
H155F-7, H172, 0% H, 29, 203, 160.8, 171.9, 0.97, 80
G40S-P, G37, NAR, 29, 206, 110.56, 37.35, 2.96, 48.4
G75S-7, G75, NAR, 29, 206, 142.11, 75.19, 1.89, 67.5
G65DH-11, G72, 71% G, 29, 206, 136.6, 71.6, 1.9, 93.6
H105DH-P, H116, 35% H, 29, 289, 216.3, 116.1, 1.87, 143.5
H70S-P, H73, NAR, 29, 291, 179.53, 73.28, 2.45, 81.7
H135S-11, H134, NAR, 29, 291, 170.09, 133.6, 1.73, 112
H255F-9, H261, 66% H, 29, 292, 266, 260.5, 1.03, 125.3
I385F-12, I439, 2% I, 29, 384, 326.3, 438.5, 0.77, 154
I560F-20, I551, 26% I, 29, 597, 404.2, 550.9, 0.73, 246.1

38 MM

I300F-P, I319, 22% I, 38, 254, 390.7, 318.8, 1.2, 181.2
I145DH-9, I145, NAR, 38, 258, 357.47, 144.72, 2.47, 182.7
I170DH-11, I167, 66% I, 38, 314, 433.21, 167.26, 2.59, 287
I220S-9, I224, 67% I, 38, 314, 534.4, 224.3, 2.4, 253.7
I420F-12, I438, 66% I, 38, 314, 532.9, 437.7, 1.2, 244.6
J280S-11, J297, 5% J, 38, 368, 671.1, 296.5, 2.27, 314.1
I255DH-10, I273, 88% I, 38, 368, 602.8, 273.4, 2.2, 353.3
J450F-10, J619, 5% J, 38, 368, 673.3, 619.4, 1.1, 308
J345S-18, J361, 19% J, 38, 476, 761.2, 361.8, 2.1, 380.5
J630F-20, J659, 23% J, 38, 476, 787.4, 659.5, 1.17, 374.5
J675F-20, J710, 27% J, 38, 476, 814.5, 710.5, 1.17, 386.6
J850F-21, J884, 41% J, 38, 576, 899.9, 883.8, 1, 450
J530S-10, J549, 55% J, 38, 737, 991.7, 549.4, 1.8, 561.7
J975F-23/P, J1018, 61% J, 38, 740, 1033.4, 1018.5, 1.03, 552.7

54 MM
I120DH-P, I120, NAR, 54, 251, 571.47, 119.81, 4.77, 393
I150S-6, I145, NAR, 54, 251, 632.37, 145.37, 4.35, 339
J340F-10, J433, 23% J, 54, 251, 787.3, 432.8, 1.88, 361.3
J180DH-13, J193, 38% J, 54, 326, 884.2, 193.4, 4.57, 605.5
J230S-8, J232, NAR, 54, 326, 945.89, 231.84, 4.08, 500.8
J480F-17, J523, 79% J, 54, 326, 1144.2, 523.2, 2.2, 522.5
J295DH-17, J306, 94% J, 54, 403, 1243.2, 306, 4.03, 792.8
K350S-9, K344, NAR 54, 403, 1317.62, 344.93, 3.82, 682
K700F-18, K692, NAR, 54, 403 1426.69, 692.57, 2.06, 682
L850S-12, L951, 3% L, 54, 727, 2643.2, 950.7, 2.8, 1265.4
L1860F-23, L2018, 3% L, 54, 727, 2643, 2017.6, 1.3, 1254.8

76 MM
J130S-15, J162, 75% J, 76, 244, 1118.1, 161.8, 6.9, 610
J250F-7, J274, 82% J, 76, 244, 1166.9, 274.4, 4.27, 596.5
K410S-13, J424, 89% K, 76, 368, 2420.4, 424.5, 5.7, 1195.9
K777F-10, K809, 97% K, 76, 368, 2524.9, 809.3, 3.13, 1168.7
L585DH-8, L609, 21% L, 76, 495, 3093.8, 608.6, 5.1, 1929.8
L630S-7, L644, 34% L, 76, 495, 3429.9, 643.6, 5.33, 1661
L1175F-30, L1205, 39% L, 76, 495, 3567.1, 1205.1, 2.97, 1667
L1500F-11, L1548, 85% L, 76, 622, 4730.5, 1548, 3.07, 2222.7
L820S-15, L845, 75% L, 76, 623, 4469.9, 845.2, 5.27, 2222.7
M1130S-P, M1170, 12% M, 76, 775, 5763.6, 1169.5, 4.9, 3069.1
M2240F-P, M2350, 16% M, 76, 775, 5947, 2349.8, 2.55, 3057.8
M1015DH-P, M1059, 3% M, 76, 781, 5282.7, 1059.2, 5, 3547
M1845S-P, M1952, 46% M, 76, 1038, 7512.8, 1952.2, 3.83, 3882.2
M3200F-P, M3202, 48% M, 76, 1041, 7565.7, 3201.6, 2.35, 3895.8

There are a few additional motors to add to this list, but are withheld until further verification can be made of the cert data. If there are any questions about the list or a possible omission/correction, reply off-list.

H. Paul Holmes
Chairman, Tripoli Motor Testing

[troj]

What are TRM motors..in particular, the 24 & 29mm sizes? Is this system/hardware new, or are these new reloads for old Kosdon/AMW-type hardware (like the Aerotech/Kosdon motors)? Is all this Kosdon...he actually makes & sells them...or is it Kosdon/Aerotech (I can't find any Kosdon Enterprises website)?

Kosdon motors have been around for a long time. AMW started out life as Kosdon East, before getting their own motors certified, but keeping basically the same hardware.

I thought Kosdon motors were snap-ring, but I've never seen snap-ring 24 or 29mm stuff.

Nothing new.

Heck, SkyRipper has 29mm snap ring hybrids.

-Kevin

[deandome]

Thanks..that's kinda what I figured...AMW and/or Gorilla hardware will work w/38mm & up.

But like I said, I can't see coming out with all the 24 & 29mm stuff unless someone plans on selling new hardware in those sizes...there's only so many "nostalgists" out there, and people would love an alternative to the 24mm AT hobbyline options.

Any word on that?

[MarkII]

Performance Hobbies has most of the hardware and quite a few of the reloads. No delay kits right now, though.

A 24mm (1") H!!!

MarkII

[5x7]

Performance Hobbies has most of the hardware and quite a few of the reloads. No delay kits right now, though.

MarkII

Note that Performance hobbies lists the small motors as 1". The TMT announcement lists them as 24mm. However it was always my understanding that they really are 1", so will not fit in a 24mm tube.

[daveyfire]

(I can't find any Kosdon Enterprises website)

Frank has been around for a long time. I don't have accessible my old copy of HPR with the pictures of the first TMT session in it (I think it was Jan/Feb 1992? the one with Lovett Reddick and his Electronic Bruiser on the cover...) but Frank's there static firing an M3700. AHPRA has a good writeup on their website about one of Frank's more famous motors: http://www.ahpra.org/o10k.htm

I scanned the latest Kosdon catalog a while back. It's still the latest one. You can always call Frank directly with questions, too.

[THarrison]

I would encourage all the curious new guys to call Ken at Performance and give Kosdon a try... you won't be disappointed. While I am strictly an EX flier now, this is the one manufacturer that can get me to buy commercial.

Todd Harrison

[MarkII]

Let me repeat: a 25.4mm dia. H! Put that in your Eggscaliber!



MarkII

[deandome]

Wouldn't that be kinda hard, seein' that the MM is 24mm?

Let me repeat: a 25.4mm dia. H! Put that in your Eggscaliber!



MarkII

[MarkII]

Wouldn't that be kinda hard, seein' that the MM is 24mm?

Toss motor tube, engine block, engine hook and centering rings. Substitute a length of ST-10 for the motor tube and use Semroc CR-10-13's to center it in the airframe. You could argue that these components would be too light for the motor, but then, so is the rest of the kit.

Or else just substitute the kit of your choice that would be absurdly over-powered by a Kosdon TRM H200-250. A Big Daddy, perhaps? A Liquidator? A Blue Ninja? You would have to customize any existing kit, because no one makes one with a 1" diameter motor tube. But this is a side issue. (Details, pesky details... )

MarkII

[FlyBoy]

Are the cases for the Kosdon TMR the same as the ones used for Kosdon by Aerotech?

[troj]

Are the cases for the Kosdon TMR the same as the ones used for Kosdon by Aerotech?

I believe so, but the forward closure and nozzle may well be different.

-Kevin

[FlyBoy]

I believe so, but the forward closure and nozzle may well be different.

-Kevin

Thanks I'm going to have to check this out, what is really stupid is that I just bought a new nozzle from Frank and forgot to ask him.

[blackjack2564]

Depending on what motor you are talking about:

The shoulder on the Kosden nozzle is shorter than the AMW nozzles by about 1/4 in. therefore reducing the total interior length when using AMW nozzles. Thus you must trim off about 1/4 of a grain to make it fit, depending on who's load your using with what nozzle. If I remember correctly the forward closure shoulder on MOST of sizes are the same, but of this I'm not sure because I'm not familiar with all the size cases. Other than the shoulder length the nozzles are the same.

The cases are the same lengths, but some Kosdens do NOT have a external thrust ring, and your on your own for retention. Most just make a thrust ring with tape.

Remember at one time there was Kosden East and Kosden West.......then East became AMW...they still used the same dimensional hardware.

No big deal, it's done all the time. Trimming to fit is common with his loads.

[bobkrech]

All NAR certified Kosdon motors were decertified as of 12/31/2003 and will remain decertified until they are retested under NAR and NFPA 1125 rules.

The following motors listed in the TMT announcement are not certified and may not be flown until they are recertified.

S = Slow, F = Fast, DH = Dirty Harry

29 MM
G40S-P, G37, NAR, 29, 206, 110.56, 37.35, 2.96, 48.4
G75S-7, G75, NAR, 29, 206, 142.11, 75.19, 1.89, 67.5
H70S-P, H73, NAR, 29, 291, 179.53, 73.28, 2.45, 81.7
H135S-11, H134, NAR, 29, 291, 170.09, 133.6, 1.73, 112

38 MM

I145DH-9, I145, NAR, 38, 258, 357.47, 144.72, 2.47, 182.7

54 MM
I120DH-P, I120, NAR, 54, 251, 571.47, 119.81, 4.77, 393
I150S-6, I145, NAR, 54, 251, 632.37, 145.37, 4.35, 339
J230S-8, J232, NAR, 54, 326, 945.89, 231.84, 4.08, 500.8
K350S-9, K344, NAR 54, 403, 1317.62, 344.93, 3.82, 682
K700F-18, K692, NAR, 54, 403 1426.69, 692.57, 2.06, 682

For further information please read the following.

R130: Kosdon Motor Announcement

As you may have heard Tripoli Rocketry Association has reinstated Dr.
Frank Kosdon as a TRA certified manufacturer. Tripoli Motor Testing
has also recently granted a one-year interim certification for all
Kosdon Enterprises motors that retained approved status at the time
of his decertification in April 2001. TRA has declared these motors
are only interim certified for Tripoli members, essentially giving
them a portion of the burn period they did not receive at the time of
censure. The interim certification will end on June 30, 2010, with
full certification to be granted for each reload kit going through
comprehensive TMT or NAR S&T testing prior to that date.

When the motors are tested and certified the NAR will add them to the
certified motor list. But we will not be giving interim
certification to the Kosdon motors that were certified in 2001. The
reason is that our requirements and Tripoli's were slightly different
at that time. Instead of decertifying the motors with no consumer
burn time the NAR left them on the certified motor list giving people
the burn time needed to use old motor stock. So the burn time that
Tripoli is now giving their members, the NAR gave their members in 2001.

Also, such certification would be against policy stated in our Motor
Testing Manual which is available at
http://www.nar.org/SandT/docs/ST-MotorTestingManual.pdf.

NFPA Code 1125 requires the successful completion of static testing
before any rocket motor can go from being "uncertified" to
"certified". Kosdon rocket motors have been "uncertified" for
several years. Until the static testing required by NFPA 1125 is
done by Tripoli Motor Testing or some other recognized testing
authority, the NAR does not regard Kosdon rocket motors as being
certified. In accordance with our Safety Code, these motors may not
be flown on any range where NAR insurance is in effect until this
testing is successfully completed.

But we do look forward to seeing Frank back making motors and will be
delighted when we can start burning his newly certified stock.

Jack Kane, Chairman
John Lyngdal, Chairman