Junior Level 1 Certification

[Orion14ed]

Hello! Orion here, and I am looking to get my Junior Level 1 Certification next year, since then I fit the age requirements. I figure, I might as well ask you who have your certification for advise. Currently, I am looking into rocket clubs that are NAR, so I am with the right group. Once I find this group, how might I be able to join? I can sign up for NAR on the website, but I am not sure if that actually counts.

Now, I have read up on what I need to do to get my Level 1 Certification. Launch a rocket with a H or I class. I have 2 years to reach my goal. I have looked into rockets that can hold a H motor, as well as lower levels. I have found one that fits my needs, it goes from an F class, all the way to a H. The rocket is called the Interrogator, and it seems to fit the bill just fine. My only concern is, if I were to build it sometime way before my certification test, will it still count as a valid entry? And can I have launched the rocket before? Because if I do get this rocket, I would use it to progress myself through higher-level classes. Currently, I have experience with A-E and a bit with F. I also have another concern with the rocket... the H class reload kit must be bought in pieces. If I do buy it, I would want to have everything that I would need. (If anyone has this rocket and would like to give me the links to what I would need, that would be great.) This is a 29/360 mount, but I must buy the aft and forward closures apart from eachother... that worries me a bit.
From what I understand I would need as follows for the motor:

Propellant Kit
RMS-29/360 Case
Forward Seal Disk

Aft Closure
Forward Closure

If you could be as kind as to answer my questions that would be awesome. I started rocketry when I was 5, and I have always wanted to launch high-powered rockets. I hope I can do this, and seeing that I have about 2 years to pull it off, I think I can.

Thanks!
Orion.

[jsargevt]

Orion,

Your enthusiasm is great!

Couple of points: you can build your cert rocket and launch it a few times before you attempt to level 1. In fact I think most people do shakedown flights before launching their cert.

Two years is a long time! Why don't you focus on your build techniques on the low and mid power rockets? The interrogator is a cool rocket for sure but I'd build some simpler mid power kits first to get a feel for the construction techniques. I know that my tastes have changed over time and when you are ready to go for your cert you might want something else.

Regarding the relodable motors. My advice is to not worry about it now. You can get a complete motor with all the hardware you need. If you choose a CTI motor it is even simpler than that. For now, read up on here. Go to a launch and check it out. Most rocketeers are happy to explain what they are doing!

[eggplant]

It is great to see another person ready to get their Jr. L1. I got my Jr. L1 on an H128 this spring. I will try to answer your questions in order. First off, yes, you can launch the rocket before using it for your certification attempt. You can also build it as far ahead of time as you would like to. Depending on where you live, you may want to choose a different rocket, as the one you have picked will go very high on that engine, and it would be very easy for it to drift a lot at that altitude. I would look for a rocket that is 4" diameter. Also, the engine that you picked fits the 29/180 case, not the 360 case. That means that you will not need the seal disk. You would need the 180 case and the closures only. I am sure someone else will be able to give you an even more in-depth explanation soon, but I hope this will help until then.

[Orion14ed]

@jsargevt Thanks! I do plan on sticking to the E-F range for a while, since that is where I am going to be able to launch most of the time. I just want to get my plan solid before then, so I dont run around buying the wrong things, and not being able to try.

@eggplant I see, I have read the sorta post-flight checklist that will be preformed, and for me to get it, the rocket must come down in very fine condition, I can see where getting a high altitude would cause an issue. Another reason I went for this one is that it can hold a F-H engine. I found this attractive because I would be able to progress through the classes well with it. I might just get a different cheaper rocket that can hold a F-G engine, and look into rockets designed for H classes.

[awseiger]

Definitely go with a bigger, simple rocket for your L1. I did what you plan on doing, and I'm still mad at myself because I don't have any dedicated HPR rocket...

Also, if you go on youtube and search "L1 Cert fails", you can see that alot of the time, People fail their L1 flights because they tried new techniques, or did complex rockets, etc. Go simple, elegant, and low/slow. Then throw an H in this beauty and send it sky high

I recommenced the LOC IV or the Hi-Tec. Both simple, low-flying, and cheap. Also, definitely get something with a 38mm motor mount. The number of HPR 29mm motors is very small compared to the 38mm and larger ones.

[Orion14ed]

Thanks for the suggestion. I was also looking into higher-diameter rockets. The one I originally picked would fall under the rocket-designed-to-look-awesome rather than to fly. (I am sure it would fly, but it looks more like a style rocket) I looked into another rocket that looks much more simple, it has a wider diameter, and is a 3 skill level. It is called the Phoenix Missile. Sure, it does not look pretty, but it has a 4'' diameter, as well as a through-the-wall fin design. It would use the same motor, but its projected altitude is 1,000 feet. Is that a good altitude for a level 1 cert flight? Seems a little low. :\

[Aksrockets]

If you dont like the look of the rocket why get it? Your cert rocket should be something that looks appealing to YOU. There are plenty of other kits besideds the phoenix that would make great cert kits.

About the 1000ft: most cert flights are between 1000 and 2000 feet.

Whatever you do, get a rocket with a 38mm MMT

Alex

[RadManCF]

Orion, keep in mind that as a minor, you are not allowed to handle reloads, per NFPA 1127, both the NAR and Tripoli safety codes, and I believe, CPSC regs as well. If you choose to use a reloadable, you will need the assistance of an adult. The documentation I've read about the Jr. L1 cert is hazy on this, but I don't think that you are allowed to handle SU HPR motors either, like before, per NFPA et al. As I understand things, this applies to purchasing them as well. I don't want to discourage you, I just feel that you should be aware of the restrictions that will be placed upon you.
Also, with regards to cert flights, I don't really buy into the KISS at all costs approach. I would say use a rocket that you're enthusiastic about flying. If you go with a really simple rocket that bores you to death, it will fly once, then sit on the shelf collecting dust. All the advice I saw for L1 certs was to use a rocket with a larger diameter tube, say 4in. I like to minimize the difference between motor diameter and airframe diameter, in order to reduce base drag. With that in mind, I did my cert flight on a PML Calisto, which has a 2.2in airframe. It went about 3k feet on an H 128. With a 24in chute, I had to walk about 1/3 of a mile for recovery. Lastly, I would highly recomend taking a look at the PML kits. Many of their kits use an airframe material called Quantum Tube, which is a polymer similar in appearance to PVC. These kits also include G10 fiberglass fins. The result is a durable and waterproof rocket. The downside is that everything needs to be epoxied together, possibly adding weight. For you as a beginer, I would avoid the kits that use phenolic tubing for airframes, it is extremely strong, but extremely brittle; one hard landing could kill your rocket.

[Orion14ed]

I see, I would have to have a NAR member handle the motor, but somehow I still need to build it? That seems a bit difficult, I will look into it. So I am looking for a rocket that I like, so that it is not a 1 time thing, a strong body tube, a large diameter, and a low altitude flight. I will look into it more, I wouldn't be buying it anytime soon, probably around Christmas, so I have plenty of time to pick a rocket.

EDIT:
Found a rocket that I personal like. Its simple, something I love in rockets, diameter is 4'', had a payload section, so I could attach electronics to it, and it is big :3 Right now my internet is not letting me get to the apogee website, so I can not link it. Here is the MadCow link Super Dx3. My question with this rocket is... Do I have to use motor retainers? Or is the motor assembly built in? (What I mean is, will I have to buy motor retainers to keep the motor in place, or does the kit come with them?)

[Coop]

If memory serves, Madcows do not come with a retainer. Most HPR doesn't, anyways, so supplying/fabricating your own is usually part of the budget. I'm kind of partial to the Aeropacks, but there's other options available...


Later!

--Coop

[Orion14ed]

Yeah, they do not. However I have found some retainers that look great, and seem simple to add to the rocket.

[JimZNJ]

The Super DX3 is a great rocket. I don't have one but I have a couple of friends who do. I've built the Madcow Patriot and the Madcow Torrent (a dual deploy cousin of the Super DX3 sold through Apogee). Both of them fly phenomenally well.

A 4" rocket like the Super DX 3 will make for a straightforward cert flight. You'll probably be in the 1000-1200' range. The nice thing about the Super DX3 is that the 38mm motor mount will give you lots of potential once you are certified to have some really fun flights on H's and I's. The Super DX3 is also easy to modify later for dual deployment. So when the time eventually comes when you are able to try for your Level 2, the same rocket will really scoot on a 38mm J. For reference, the Madcow Patriot I mentioned also can do all of this. That is the rocket I used for my Level 1 and then Level 2.

On my rockets I've used the Aeropack retainers. Admittedly they can get a bit pricey if you are constrained on budget. Madcow sells a more basic retention system which is much cheaper. You can also learn from people here clever ways you can make your own motor retention system using parts you can pick up at your local hardware store.

Good luck! I admire your ambition.

Jim Z

[Coop]

How was that Torrent to build/fly? I was giving it some consideration as a potential build...


Later!

--Coop

[Orion14ed]

Right now, price is not an issue, I am trying to gather what I would need. I also would want to buy the best parts, something such as a rocket, you put the O ring in the wrong spot, you are in trouble. My point being that I would rather get the right parts, than the cheap ones that will only work once.

[RayGNJ]

The Mad cow rockets are easy to assemble, the parts fit very well.

I have the the Super DX3 and It flys great. Last flown on an AT J350.
The Torrent is basicly a Super DX3 with different fins. The kit is very complete aside from motor retainer and electronics.
The motor and the rocket are two separate pieces that are reusable.
If you are worrying about misplaced O-rings like in Aerotech motors try the ones from CTI.

They are very easy to setup .Just slide the reload in the case an your done. The cases are reuseable as are the Aerotech ones.

I use the aeropack retainers on my rockets. what with the cost of motor cases and the possible loss or a rocket its worth the extra money spent.
Besides it looks very professional looking.

Either way you go its not wasted money on the items in the post. Good luck.

[Orion14ed]

Now that I know that the rocket I have chose is a good one, I feel much better going forward. And with the O-rings, that was just an example, I am not worried about them, I feel I can assemble the motor by memory. It was just an example, I want to get the correct parts, and high quality for the first flight.

[RayGNJ]

No problem man!

But just for the record, don't ever assemble your reload by memory.
I've done quite a few and still double check the instructions before assembly.

Anyways good luck and happy flying.

[karlbaum]

One thing to consider with a 4 inch rocket is the ejection charge size. Here is an article. http://www.info-central.org/?article=303 . You may need an extra gram or so of black powder.

[Orion14ed]

...That may be difficult.

[karlbaum]

You can borrow BP from someone at a launch. Another option is to make the parahute chamber smaller. One way to do this is to make the motor mount longer and move the forward centering ring forward.

[RayGNJ]

If you are using just the motors ejection charge for deployment, the standard load that comes with the reload kit is more than enough to do the job.

You would only need extra black powder if you were doing dual deployment.
I use about the same amount of black powder as in the ejection charge to do my dual deploy.

[Aksrockets]

Plus, you cant do DD since you are a JR.

Alex

[Orion14ed]

I see, that had me a bit confused as well. I am slated to build the rocket, and the motor, but legally I am not allowed to handle the motor of the rocket?

[Dr. Quigley]

Well, the motor bit is hazy. You can buy them, you can hold them, you can store them, but you can't assemble the HPR reloads. I'm sure you can find someone willing to help you out- the people of the hobby are generally very friendly and would love to help further the hobby by helping you out. I'm gonna be going for Jr. L1 sometime this year, on a H165 sitting in my range box... ...whispering... "...whoosh......*pop*..." ...over... ...and over...

There's a reason why I'm downright insane... I just can't put my finger on it...

...all the other psychologists went insane as well...

[Orion14ed]

Hahaha
I am sure once I join a club I could find someone to help me. Thanks ;D

[Nerull]

I don't think you are allowed to touch the motor, ever. No buying, no storing, no assembling, and no loading them in your rocket.

[blackbrandt]

Thanks, I have been following this thread, and learned a lot!

[Orion14ed]

This thread has a ton of views as well... I never expected it to get as much attention as it did. My current plan is to get the Super DX3. I will get the extra altimeter bay, as well as the chute protector. I will also get the MadCow retainers, they look very attractive to say the least. I have a few questions about what to use as an adhesive. (or glue I guess) From what I understand, I will use a thicker glue if lets say the centering rings do not fit onto the motor-tube. And epoxy should be used on the outside of the fins, while wood glue for the rest? I want to make sure I have the right glue before I buy the rocket. And one last question, can I have some one help me paint it? Because I want it to have a sick paint job, its going to be a very well looking rocket when I am done with it. I guess I could do it, buts I have people who have experience with spray-paint and airbrush stuff.

And one last thing, thanks for all the support. You guys here are great! Every question that has been asked has been answered kindly, and in simple enough terms for me to understand.

Thanks!

-Orion

[Aksrockets]

This thread has a ton of views as well... I never expected it to get as much attention as it did. My current plan is to get the Super DX3. I will get the extra altimeter bay, as well as the chute protector. I will also get the MadCow retainers, they look very attractive to say the least. I have a few questions about what to use as an adhesive. (or glue I guess) From what I understand, I will use a thicker glue if lets say the centering rings do not fit onto the motor-tube. And epoxy should be used on the outside of the fins, while wood glue for the rest? I want to make sure I have the right glue before I buy the rocket. And one last question, can I have some one help me paint it? Because I want it to have a sick paint job, its going to be a very well looking rocket when I am done with it. I guess I could do it, buts I have people who have experience with spray-paint and airbrush stuff.

And one last thing, thanks for all the support. You guys here are great! Every question that has been asked has been answered kindly, and in simple enough terms for me to understand.

Thanks!

-Orion

I wrote a blog post on what adhesive to use where.
http://www.aksrockets.blogspot.com/2...se-part-1.html

Yes, you can have someone help you paint it but I would just do it yourself. You have a few years till you build this thing, right? That should give you well enough time to learn how to finish rockets correctly.

Alex

[Orion14ed]

Well I have the rest of this year, as well as the next. I would get the rocket this January, and have as much time as I want. I would want to shoot for it before I turn 15, but hey, if it needs more time, I have nothing but. I do feel confident that I will be able to finish the rocket within a few weeks of getting it. I will read that post!