Any aquarium buffs out there?

[chadrog]

Don't forget to check the hardness of your water as well, that was an issue for me with the limestone aquifer water in Wisconsin.

[Doggonewild]

I'm pretty sure it's kinda hard here. Damn, that test kit doesn't test hardness, there goes 5 more bucks. Thanks, man.

[Doggonewild]

I picked up a 24" Aquasun T5 HO hood, a 24w Flora Sun bulb at 5000K, and a 24w Ultra Sun bulb at 6500K. I hope it does the trick. I also picked up a bag of Flourite, a couple resin rock formations, a tank vacuum, and a hardness test kit. The water is 6 dKH, or 107ppm, not bad. A little hard for Neons though, won't get them for sure.

As soon as my other bag of Flourite and the test kit comes, I'll fill it up, and start cycling. I'm making a stand out of 4 8x12x16 inch concrete blocks with a length of bullnose shelving on them. I want it low to the ground, as that's where I am at my computer station. I'm excited!

[JPVegh]

I picked up a 24" Aquasun T5 HO hood, a 24w Flora Sun bulb at 5000K, and a 24w Ultra Sun bulb at 6500K. I hope it does the trick. I also picked up a bag of Flourite, a couple resin rock formations, a tank vacuum, and a hardness test kit. The water is 6 dKH, or 107ppm, not bad. A little hard for Neons though, won't get them for sure.

As soon as my other bag of Flourite and the test kit comes, I'll fill it up, and start cycling. I'm making a stand out of 4 8x12x16 inch concrete blocks with a length of bullnose shelving on them. I want it low to the ground, as that's where I am at my computer station. I'm excited!

Sounds really neat man. Post a picture or two once you get things set up.

[Doggonewild]

Sounds really neat man. Post a picture or two once you get things set up.

Will do, I'm fairly confident things will work out now. I also just noticed the kit has a bottle of live bacteria, that should speed things up.

I checked out that forum you mentioned. I may have gotten more help here actually, but I'm learning stuff there for sure. LED's seem to be all the rage now, but I couldn't afford that. That plant site is way cool, I can see giving them some business in the future. Quick shipping to WI as well.

Thanks for your help and interest.

[troj]

Will do, I'm fairly confident things will work out now. I also just noticed the kit has a bottle of live bacteria, that should speed things up.

Unless things have changed, I wouldn't bet on that bottle doing anything.

I picked up a 24" Aquasun T5 HO hood, a 24w Flora Sun bulb at 5000K, and a 24w Ultra Sun bulb at 6500K. I hope it does the trick. I also picked up a bag of Flourite, a couple resin rock formations, a tank vacuum, and a hardness test kit. The water is 6 dKH, or 107ppm, not bad. A little hard for Neons though, won't get them for sure.

Trying to remember; I think freshwater plants want a bit on the red sign, whereas saltwater is more accustomed to shallower water and blue lights. Your bulbs may be a bit on the blue side. Do some research on what color temp is recommended for freshwater plants.

Be careful with a gravel vac and plants -- you want to lightly vaccuum the surface, or you'll disturb the roots.

As far as the neons go, it depends on whether they're wild on aquacultured neons. Aquacultured fish are often more tolerant of "wrong" water chemistry.

-Kevin

[Marc_G]

One thing that I did, that wasn't in vogue at the time, but which worked fabulously for me, was to put the Flourite on top of an undergravel filter platforms (I had separate platforms on the left and right, as I recall). Powerhead on each, one which discharged near the top of the tank (but not right at the surface... didn't want to disturb it and lose my CO2), and one mid-height. KEep in mind, this was a 90 gal tank, so fairly large.

Main filtration was via an Eheim unit that drew from the hole in the bottom of the tank which was usually for ... I forget the name of the thing... but there was a sort of baffle in one corner that water would overflow into. From this area water got sucked down and into the filter. I had a sponge-head over the intake.

It was cool. I miss the tank. Once the carpets are in, I can consider restarting the tank.

Marc

[Doggonewild]

There were only three choices for bulbs at the store for this light, the one I didn't buy was for coral. I would think these flora and sunlight bulbs would be ok. They better be or Zoo Med is as ignorant as I am. What I've read people recommend anything from 5000k to 10,000k in various combinations.

After further research I'll have to mount the light from something with the included wires, on top of the aquarium will be too much light. A chart on Planted Tank Forum suggests a foot above for medium light, four inches for high. I don't want to go into the CO2 thing, so I'll have to figure out how I do this. I'll need some kind of glass or plastic top for the aquarium then, any suggestions?

The bottle with bacteria is API Stresszyme+. I have no idea if it works or not. I'll use it, but will make certain everything is right with testing before any fish are added. I'm still not certain when to put plants in, it would be easiest before the aquarium is completely full. I'm thinking of adding ammonia to 5 ppm to feed the bacteria from what I read. The test kit is getting delivered tomorrow, and then I'll know the PH and can start figuring out what I will really put in this aquarium. I want an Asian theme, but am having a hard time finding any bottom dwellers that don't get quite large here in town. And Cory's are so adorable.

My landlord wants to paint the room the aquarium will be in, and I'll have to mount the light, so this will be a few days yet. More time to learn.

Heheh, it will be interesting to me how many people fire up their vacant aquariums after participating in this thread. Go for it!

[pick1e]

Good advice so far. A few thoughts on what's been already written:

API makes good stuff, so does Seachem. I trust anything from Seachem. I have Flourite in several planted tanks and it's always been great. The instructions say to rinse it until the water runs clear- it never runs clear. Give it a rinse and call it good. It makes a mess when you put it in the tank or move it around, but the silt settles in a day.

Yes I'd get a glass hood and put the lights right on it. With high light, don't keep them on longer than 10 hours a day. On my 29gal I used to have two double strips each on different timers- one would be on 12 hrs, the second only 6hrs in the middle of the day.

You won't have any problems with Harlequin Rasboras nipping. They are actually part of the small genus Trigonostigma. If you can find T. espei (AKA Rasbora espei, Espe's rasbora, lambchop rasbora, copper rasbora, cooper rasbora, etc) or T. hengeli (Hengel's Rasbora, Rasbora hengeli) they are beautiful fish. One of my favorites that I've bred for years.

As mentioned before don't be afraid of neon tetras- they are almost never wild caught and are tolerant of most established aquariums. Get them from the LFS though, not PetSmart. In fact, don't get anything from the fish (outlets) for lots of reasons. (see next) They will get huge shipments of neons and 75% will die the following day. Your LFS will get them from a better source and will quarantine fish that don't look good. Also summer is the worst time to get fish- they get warm in shipment, leading to stress, and high losses. Long story short for the healthiest fish get chummy with your LFS and get fish they've had for at least a week. The longer the better as they will be well acclimated to your local water parameters.

Don't get any plants in those tubes from PetSmart. They are not actually aquatic plants and haven't been raised submerged. Once you put them in your tank all the leaves will fall off and they will rot. Anything at PetSmart is designed to get your money and get you out the door.

You will always have snails. It's next to impossible to have plants without snails. The thing is, they thrive if there is excess waste for them to eat. If you have a ton of snails, you are feeding too much or have too many fish creating waste. That is one reason why true planted tanks are generally very sparsely stocked with fish.

In Wisconsin your water is going to be fairly hard which is fine, but soft water is better for plants. There is a loose relationship between hardness and pH. I disagree with the advice to plan everything out before you start. Mistakes are how you learn, you will not get the balance right the first time between fish, plants, light, fertilizer, pH, CO2, etc. If you add one component at a time you'll see how that change affects things. I ran planted tanks for a long time with hard water before going to RO, before changing the lighting, before changing plants, before modifying fertilizer levels, etc, etc, etc. It's always a work in progress, that's what makes it fun.

For a 20gal, look into DIY CO2 with yeast and sugar (compressed C02 is the way to go for sure but the DIY method works fine for a small tank on a small budget). That's what I use in my 29. Seachem Excel is also great but don't use it if you have any species of Val.

Cryptocorne has such a multitude of species nobody really knows what they have. Best is to go by "green" strain, "purple" strain, "ruffled" strain, "tall" strain, etc.

I'll post more if I think of em

[pick1e]

Here are some Espe's rasbora in a small breeding tank. Pictures and video don't do them justice- their color doesn't really pick up on film. Another favorite of mine is the Furcata (or forktail) rainbowfish. Again not a true rainbowfish, but a blueeye. Pseudomogil furcatus as I recall. Both great small, active, mid-water fish for planted tanks.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bA1Lo2s_zJ8

[Doggonewild]

Thanks pick1e, it sounds like you have lots of experience and your advice will be used. Very cool video. This is what I've been using for advice on lighting: http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/li...t5-t12-pc.html According to his tests my 2x24 watt T5 HO light will be too bright mounted on the 16" tall aquarium, and needs to be raised.

This is what I've been using for cycling the tank: http://www.aquariumguys.com/freshwat...Fishless_Cycle

I don't have much choice on where I get my fish or plants in Eau Claire. No real LFS, and limited selection. I'm definately thinking of getting my plants from http://www.aquariumplants.com/ since I will have to wait anyway for painting and such. I'm at an impasse until I do a PH test.

[pick1e]

This is what I've been using for advice on lighting: http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/li...t5-t12-pc.html According to his tests my 2x24 watt T5 HO light will be too bright mounted on the 16" tall aquarium, and needs to be raised.

Interesting- I guess I've never heard of having too much light before I'd point out that you will also be losing some intensity from the glass top... Not only the glass itself but it'll have condensation diffracting the light and crud like algae and mineral deposits growing on it after a while.

Good information on cycling. The BEST way to begin a cycle is to throw in a used filter from an established tank. If you have friend that can supply you with aged water and a used filter you can cycle in 24 hrs! A couple other things I'd point out- tap water has chlorine to keep microbes from growing in the water pipes. It also prevents them from growing in your tank. Don't wash/rinse things like your filter in tap water. It is detrimental to the bacteria bed. Some people always want to keep their filters "clean" which is actually what you don't want. You want them gunky as long as they're not restricting the flow of water. When they're too gunky, rinse them in some water siphoned off the top of the tank when you do a water change. Adding tap water to an established tank isn't detrimental as long as you aren't changing more than about 25%. If you're doing more, fill up buckets and let the water sit out overnight, the chlorine evaporates.

Filters- manufacturers tell you how often to change the filter media- so they can sell you more media. The only time you need to change it is if it's falling apart. Much better to just rinse the gunk out of it and reuse. Activated carbon is different, it only lasts so long, but you don't want to use carbon anyway with a planted tank- it soaks up your fertilizers!

Another thing about pH and hardness, people get all wrapped up in them but by their nature freshwater fish/plants are quite tolerant of different water parameters. This is because they live in streams or pools where water chemistry can vary greatly from day to day or location to location. Upstream, downstream, dry spell... A small body of water will change drastically from a dry period then all of a sudden a heavy downpour and lots of runoff, you see my point. This isn't the case for marine fish where they are accustomed to a stable water chemistry.

A lot of the "likes soft water" or "likes hard water" can be misleading. Sure neon tetras like soft water but they are just fine in hard water too so long as they are acclimated and not just thrown right in. Will you be able to breed them in hard water? No- but keep them healthy yes. There are some species that won't live long in the wrong type of water but trust me you won't find them at PetSmart

My fishy mentor who owned a fish store for 40 years and bred everything there is to breed always said "fish don't read books!"

[wayneta]

To answer your original question:
1. No. Yes.
2. Yes. No.
3. Once your tank is fully cycled, you could get 2 dwarf guoramis, 12 neons, 6 corys without overcrowding.

Snails are a good food source for those fish. Just mash them between thumb and forefinger. Clown Loaches will freely dine on snails.

Please research live plants. There are some types which require high light and others low light - just like land plants. By "light", I mean lumens. Most aquarium bundles come with insufficient lighting for live plants. Java Moss and Java Ferns don't require a lot of light.

I have several tanks, heavily planted, all running close to 10 years now.

-Wayne T. Anthony

[Doggonewild]

Interesting- I guess I've never heard of having too much light before I'd point out that you will also be losing some intensity from the glass top... Not only the glass itself but it'll have condensation diffracting the light and crud like algae and mineral deposits growing on it after a while.

Good information on cycling. The BEST way to begin a cycle is to throw in a used filter from an established tank. If you have friend that can supply you with aged water and a used filter you can cycle in 24 hrs! A couple other things I'd point out- tap water has chlorine to keep microbes from growing in the water pipes. It also prevents them from growing in your tank. Don't wash/rinse things like your filter in tap water. It is detrimental to the bacteria bed. Some people always want to keep their filters "clean" which is actually what you don't want. You want them gunky as long as they're not restricting the flow of water. When they're too gunky, rinse them in some water siphoned off the top of the tank when you do a water change. Adding tap water to an established tank isn't detrimental as long as you aren't changing more than about 25%. If you're doing more, fill up buckets and let the water sit out overnight, the chlorine evaporates.

Filters- manufacturers tell you how often to change the filter media- so they can sell you more media. The only time you need to change it is if it's falling apart. Much better to just rinse the gunk out of it and reuse. Activated carbon is different, it only lasts so long, but you don't want to use carbon anyway with a planted tank- it soaks up your fertilizers!

Another thing about pH and hardness, people get all wrapped up in them but by their nature freshwater fish/plants are quite tolerant of different water parameters. This is because they live in streams or pools where water chemistry can vary greatly from day to day or location to location. Upstream, downstream, dry spell... A small body of water will change drastically from a dry period then all of a sudden a heavy downpour and lots of runoff, you see my point. This isn't the case for marine fish where they are accustomed to a stable water chemistry.

A lot of the "likes soft water" or "likes hard water" can be misleading. Sure neon tetras like soft water but they are just fine in hard water too so long as they are acclimated and not just thrown right in. Will you be able to breed them in hard water? No- but keep them healthy yes. There are some species that won't live long in the wrong type of water but trust me you won't find them at PetSmart

My fishy mentor who owned a fish store for 40 years and bred everything there is to breed always said "fish don't read books!"

I hadn't heard of too much light either. It sure would be easier to just have the light on top, I just want to do the right thing. The light has individual switches for each bulb, I could use that somehow perhaps. Does anyone think having just the flora light on while I was at work, and then turning the sunlight bulb on for a few hours before bed would be OK? It might be bad for the plants, but I could see the fish being ok with it, especially if they are getting fed then. Lots of conflicting information out there, but I have a few more days to research. Thanks much for your help.

[Doggonewild]

To answer your original question:
1. No. Yes.
2. Yes. No.
3. Once your tank is fully cycled, you could get 2 dwarf guoramis, 12 neons, 6 corys without overcrowding.

Snails are a good food source for those fish. Just mash them between thumb and forefinger. Clown Loaches will freely dine on snails.

Please research live plants. There are some types which require high light and others low light - just like land plants. By "light", I mean lumens. Most aquarium bundles come with insufficient lighting for live plants. Java Moss and Java Ferns don't require a lot of light.

I have several tanks, heavily planted, all running close to 10 years now.

-Wayne T. Anthony

Thanks, Wayne. It would be nice to have more Cory's if I go that route, as they like to hang out in groups. They can get pretty big though, and I was worried about overcrowding. I'm not sure there are six of them in town though.

[Doggonewild]

I got the API test kit today, and I tested the PH. It came in at 7.6, so I figured I better use the high range test. It came in at 8.2, that's quite alkaline. Hmmm. Fun test kit though, and very easy to use. So the water is 100 ppm hardness, 8.2 PH before anything happens.

Oh yeah, those big concrete blocks were too heavy, I chose 6 4x8x16 inch blocks instead, with a 16x36 inch laminated board on top of that. Low to the ground which I need, but can hold a ton and was only 15 bucks.

[pick1e]

I got the API test kit today, and I tested the PH. It came in at 7.6, so I figured I better use the high range test. It came in at 8.2, that's quite alkaline. Hmmm. Fun test kit though, and very easy to use.

That's what we have here in Michigan too. And me loving South American fish that prefer soft, acidic water!

There are pygmy corys if you can find them. They remain small so you can keep a nice group.

[Doggonewild]

Cryptocorne has such a multitude of species nobody really knows what they have. Best is to go by "green" strain, "purple" strain, "ruffled" strain, "tall" strain, etc.

It sounds like this plant can look different wherever it is grown if I remember correctly. It also sounds like a great beginner plant and I will probably get one. So I should get maybe 4 different plants, and propagate the offspring in the long run?

[Doggonewild]

That's what we have here in Michigan too. And me loving South American fish that prefer soft, acidic water!

There are pygmy corys if you can find them. They remain small so you can keep a nice group.

I must have been editing when you replied. I figured I'd just add to my posts as I think of things instead of posting a million times. It must be all the limestone under us for that PH. There are only 4 Bronze Cory's in town that I know of, much less pygmy's. Oh woe is me. I could always make a trip to the Twin Cities, a 90 minute drive depending where a good fish store is, if I can find one online.

[Marc_G]

Don't sweat the hard water. I'm not a fan of chemically treating water to change its characteristics, but if you get a bale of peat at the hardware store, and store your water for water changes in a big trashcan or something, you can add some peat in a stocking or somesuch and it may soften and acidify the water a bit.

Whatever you do, don't try the oldschool route of adding acidification powders. Those aren't worth the money.

[troj]

Too much light -- yep. Too much light, and the plants will outgrow their CO2 supply. This is why CO2 injection is used.

As far as water chemistry goes, if you start with pure tap water, the water has buffering in it. Adjusting the pH requires breaking that buffer, then adjusting the pH, and rebuffering it where you want it. It's easier to start with RO water, which has very little (almost no) buffering, and work with it, if you want to work with the pH. You'll get greater stability.

A stable but wrong pH is better for the fish than one that swings wildly.

Also, remember to always check your pH at the same time of day -- CO2 in the water acidifies it; during the night, the plants aren't using CO2.

-Kevin

[pick1e]

Too much light -- yep. Too much light, and the plants will outgrow their CO2 supply. This is why CO2 injection is used.

That's true, I didn't think of it that way. Any time the system is out of balance (light, fertilizer, CO2) you're asking for an algae bloom. Kept in balance, the plants out-compete the algae. I guess as long as you kept up with fertilizer and CO2 you'd probably be OK though. If the bulbs have separate switches you can probably get away with them right on the hood with one on for most of the day and the second on only for a portion. If you can get in there and wire them to timers that would be awesome, but you'd probably have to add a ballast- it's probably a single ballast with two outputs.

As far as water chemistry goes, if you start with pure tap water, the water has buffering in it. Adjusting the pH requires breaking that buffer, then adjusting the pH, and rebuffering it where you want it. It's easier to start with RO water, which has very little (almost no) buffering, and work with it, if you want to work with the pH. You'll get greater stability.

A stable but wrong pH is better for the fish than one that swings wildly.

Also, remember to always check your pH at the same time of day -- CO2 in the water acidifies it; during the night, the plants aren't using CO2.

I'll second all of that. The buffering capacity has to do with TDS which affects the buffering capacity and thereby the pH. TDS (general hardness) is linear whereas pH is a logarithmic scale. So if you mix tap water 1:1 with RO water your TDS or GH will be about half that of straight tap water. pH probably won't change much but then it's much easier to buffer since you don't have to overcome all the buffering capacity of the minerals in the tap water. My magic mix that I use is 1 part tap water to 3 parts RO water. If you want to go that route, check out the drinking water refill station at your local grocery store. Often times those Culligan dispensers are RO. Expensive for a big tank but good enough to get started with a small tank.

Way more info than you need but food for thought.

P.S. Should this thread be renamed "Planted Tank Primer" and be sticky? hehe

[troj]

P.S. Should this thread be renamed "Planted Tank Primer" and be sticky? hehe

No, it should be rooted....

[Doggonewild]

It would be a little odd to have a sticky thread about aquariums on a rocket forum, but there is a ton of information here. (Not any of my doing of course.)

That lighting thread is 48 pages long, but I found someone who tested the same bulbs as I have, but in a different fixture. A lot depends on the reflector it sounds, but I think I can get away with a glass top with the light on it, and using just one bulb most of the time to get me to medium-high light. So do you just go to a window store and have them cut you a slightly bigger piece of non-tempered glass with room for the heater and filter? I suppose I could maybe cut down the reflectiveness of the reflector, it is mirror-like polished aluminum.

The light actually has two ballasts, I thought about what you suggested pick1e. They probably are wired in parallel to the power cord, I'm not sure what would happen if each had it's own power cord. I just don't know anything about ballasts. I need a little robot to click the switch. One of those light meters sure would come in handy, but they are pricey.

Thanks again everyone for the continued help.

[pick1e]

A lot of people just use a scrap piece of glass or plexiglass. It's cheap but I get annoyed moving it all the time... Petsmart does carry glass hoods, they are pretty standard. There is a plastic strip at the back that can be nibbled away to accommodate your filter, heater, etc. as well as a hinge across the middle so the front section lifts up for access. It sits inside the rim of the aquarium on the lip so condensation drips inside

http://www.petsmart.com/product/inde...uctId=11252588

That's promising with the two ballasts in your fixture- You should easily be able to bypass the second ballast's input to a separate power cord.

[Doggonewild]

Thanks, man. I looked around at the store for something like this, but didn't see anything. I'll have to ask someone. I could easily rewire the hood as long the ballasts can take it, I'm good at wiring and soldering.

I've been checking into peat, and the Asian fish I've been talking about all seem to like it. It does make sense though that the fish are pretty tolerant for the most part. My last aquarium was a 38 gallon fake planted one, and the Blue Gourami's did fine in this water, as well as some Giant Danio's. The Danio's were very active, and if I'd catch a fly and throw it in, it was gone in the blink of an eye. I need to check more into plant PH and hardness tolerance now before I make my final selections.

[Doggonewild]

No, it should be rooted....

hehehe, that's pretty funny.

[Doggonewild]

I'm quite certain I want a low-tech tank. A nice balanced ecosystem that the plants grow fairly slow but are healthy. The light is overkill for that probably, but choices are few for a 20 gallon tank. At least I have many options on how I mount the light. To be safe I should probably hang the light over the tank four inches to start. I need a shelf in that alcove to hang the light from which my landlord is all for installing. There will be a 48" space to display my rockets above it. After I start cycling the tank for a couple days, I'll probably introduce some kind of local pet store plant. I'll test and observe until the tank is cycled. If I go with the mail order plants for the rest of them, I'll plant them all and hope for the best. If I go local, I'll add plants and fish starting with the bottom dwellers periodically over the next few weeks.

If I can find a Crossocheilus of some kind in town, I may get just one of them with two Dwarf Gourami's and a dozen Harlequins, as well as a Mystery Snail. What I've read they go to the surface to breathe and lay eggs, that should be easier to control. I'd like to find a female Gourami, but have only seen males. If no Crossocheilus are available which is likely, 4 Cory's of some kind will have to do, to my delight. I don't like the Albinos, but I'll see what is available in a few weeks.

I'd like to get a floating plant, Riccia Fluitans sounds like the best bet. Some kind of Marsilea for a foreground plant, and perhaps Cryptocorne Wendtii, Anubius, and Java Fern in some combination that I haven't decided yet.

Am I on the right track? Only time and you experts can tell.

[Doggonewild]

The alcove is painted. I'll buy shelf stuff, some kind of glass hood hopefully, and something about four inches thick to go underneath my concrete blocks tomorrow. The tank will be too low for my taste otherwise. I think a couple patio blocks or some 4x4's should be good enough. It will have a rustic look. I've decided that Anubias is out of the running for being a plant in my tank. Woo hoo, almost ready to fill 'er up.

[chadrog]

How ya' coming along on that rocket?