What would you recommend?

[iqsy59]

It is finally time for me to start building my Level I Cert. rocket and I have four solid candidates in my build queue:

PML D Region Tomahawk
Madcow ARCAS (fiberglass)
Madcow Aerobee 150A (Kraft)
LOC Precision 3" Iris

My goal is simple...to build the kit that gives me the highest probability for success on my first attempt, based on ease of build, stability, etc.. Although I have all of the electronics that I need for DD, I plan to reserve that for my L2 Doug Stout ARCAS attempt later. This build will likely employ more of the KISS principle.

Any sage advice for me? Which bird would you recommend, and why?

Cheers,
Michael

[jpummil]

Did my L1 on a Madcow Little John (the pre-glass version). Madcow and LOC make great KISS kits. Can't comment on PML as I've never built one of their kits. Use a lot of their components (nosecones, body tubes, etc...)
I'll stand in for Troj here and say "build what makes you happy" because in reality, the better you like your choice, the better you'll build it

[troj]

I'll stand in for Troj here and say "build what makes you happy" because in reality, the better you like your choice, the better you'll build it

Beat me to it!

I'll be honest, KISS for certifications drives me batty -- a certification flight that isn't something you enjoy and would normally build/fly doesn't accomplish anything, other than a merit badge.

A rocket that makes you happy is something you're going to fly over again. And certifying with it demonstrates that you've got the ability to build and fly what you'll actually be flying.

Let's take it to an extreme...

I have a friend whose thing is sleek and fast -- high performance, all the way. If he were to have gotten Level 2 on a 4" rocket that went 3,000 feet, what would he have accomplished? Not much, since that rocket would then get tossed in the corner and forgotten, while he started building and flying the minimum diameter machbusters that he actually enjoys.

So, my opinion? Toss the poll. Build the rocket that makes you happiest.

-Kevin

[blackjack2564]

So, my opinion? Toss the poll. Build the rocket that makes you happiest.

-Kevin

A brownie rocket???

[jsargevt]

Agreed on the comments about what makes you happy! I voted for the arcas since you have a Stout for your L2. It would be cool to see a pair of carts on the same-ish rocket. Plus you can see the difference between the two kits and their styling this way.

Just my 2 cents.

[Dwatkins]

I assumed these were the 4 kits he liked! Of these the glass ARCAS would take the most abuse. Therefore he should be able to fly it more and for a longer period.

Dennis

[robertv2]

My aerobee waiting for L1 attempt. I replaced the forward airframe with a 3" longer piece and changed nose with a longer one. I have everything ready for dd after first flight.

[iqsy59]

I assumed these were the 4 kits he liked!

This!

Actually I buy into the troj philosophy completely. My dilemma is that I already own all four of these guys and like them all! It seems responsible to certify with a kit that will prove to myself and to those at the launch that I have the basic techniques down before I try to get too complex. That is why my multi-stage, dual-deploy, PML Terrier/Mini BBX isn't even on the list. So far, the poll is reflecting my own internal views fairly closely. The ARCAS would be almost bulletproof; the Iris stable; and the Tomahawk would fly low and slow, more like the real thing. Decisions, decisions...

Cheers,
Michael

[tsai]

I'm voting for the Arcas. 2 reasons. It's a great flyer, but that's secondary.

You're doing the Stout Arcas for L2... you should do a full scale (really not a lot bigger than the Stout) for an L3. All 3 certs with an Arcas. That'd be cool.

[cavecentral]

Voted Iris. Did mine with a Caliber ISP - similar size. I had bad luck with my first fiberglass build because I used 5 min epoxy. If you are familiar with fiberglass, go with the arcas, otherwise I say the Iris.

Stick to the one most similar to the others you fly successfully in the MPR range.

[lab man]

I love PML kits. I built a PML Ariel for my level 1 and 2 certification. They have a nice kit.
However, since then I have gotten the Wildman bug. I would recommend the Wildman Jr. it is built like a tank and will take any 38mm motor that you can buy. He has awesome kits made out of spiral wound fiberglass and are built like tanks. Which is important for someone learning all the facets of high power. Most failures are recovery related. I have had numerous occasions where my drogue separated but my main did not. Except for paint damage the rocket was in perfect condition.

[MarkII]

Either the Aerobee or the Iris would be my choice, but not due to any certification reasons. I just like how these rockets look. And that's the only criterion that I would use. For my Level 1 cert., I scratch-built an upscale of a classic Estes rocket from the past -- IOW, exactly what I am into. In fact, I started the project before I ever thought about using it for a certification flight. As others have said, think about what kinds of rockets you like to build, and then build one.

In my case, after I built mine, I used RockSim to pick an H motor that would give it the performance that I wanted while insuring that it deployed its parachute safely and stayed within the field. It was a great flight.

[MarkII]

This!

Actually I buy into the troj philosophy completely. My dilemma is that I already own all four of these guys and like them all! It seems responsible to certify with a kit that will prove to myself and to those at the launch that I have the basic techniques down before I try to get too complex. That is why my multi-stage, dual-deploy, PML Terrier/Mini BBX isn't even on the list. So far, the poll is reflecting my own internal views fairly closely. The ARCAS would be almost bulletproof; the Iris stable; and the Tomahawk would fly low and slow, more like the real thing. Decisions, decisions...

Cheers,
Michael

Remember that this doesn't have to be the flight to end all flights, the flight of the century. If you have flown any of these already on big Gs, they have done well, and they have come back undamaged, then going up to an H won't be that big of a step. The rocket will go appreciably higher and will get up there much quicker, but otherwise the flight will seem to be quite typical of other rocket flights that you have been making lately. If you haven't launched any of them, then pick one whose flight sims look especially nice to you, and (very important) will stay under the waiver and land within the launch field. In all likelihood you'll eventually launch them all on high power, so it almost appears to just be a matter of which one is ready first, or is coming up next in your launch rotation. That's quite an enviable position to be in, by the way.

[iqsy59]

Either the Aerobee or the Iris would be my choice, but not due to any certification reasons. I just like how these rockets look.

I have to agree that these are two beautiful rockets. The Aerobee is definitely going to test my painting skills to make it scale. Of the 26 unbuilt kits that I own, only the PML Sudden Rush stands out as not being at least a sport scale of a sounding or space rocket...and I got that one 14 years ago before I took a long hiatus from the hobby.

I think I am going to go along with the majority so far and give my Madcow ARCAS the first shot at certification. The idea of doing all my certs on different versions of the same rocket is appealing. Plus the added strength of the glass should provide a little insurance against unfortunate landing situations and it should finish up nicely. If, for some reason, I'm not successful on my first attempt, I'll load the Iris into the chamber...since it is one of the most elegant designs that has ever flown.

Of course, I reserve the right to change my mind!!!

Cheers,
Michael

[glenbo]

Arcas for sure! Good ol' Mad Cow FG kit will be around awhile for you to enjoy after your L1 if you don't loose it first. Good simple build. Good introductory FG kit.
Also being FG you are adding quite a bit of weight to that rocket which is good for L1 as far as keeping your altitude in check.

[MarkII]

I have to agree that these are two beautiful rockets! The Aerobee is definitely going to test my painting skills to make it scale. Of the 26 unbuilt kits that I own, only the PML Sudden Rush stands out as not being at least a sport scale of a sounding or space rocket...and I got that one 14 years ago before I took a long hiatus from the hobby!

I think I am going to go along with the majority so far and give my Madcow ARCAS the first shot at certification. The idea of doing all my certs on different versions of the same rocket is appealing. Plus the added strength of the glass should provide a little insurance against unfortunate landing situations and it should finish up nicely! If, for some reason, I'm not successful on my first attempt, I'll load the Iris into the chamber...since it is one of the most elegant designs that has ever flown!

Of course, I reserve the right to change my mind!!!

Cheers,
Michael

Sounds like a great plan. Good luck!

[iqsy59]

Remember that this doesn't have to be the flight to end all flights, the flight of the century. If you have flown any of these already on big Gs, they have done well, and they have come back undamaged, then going up to an H won't be that big of a step. The rocket will go appreciably higher and will get up there much quicker, but otherwise the flight will seem to be quite typical of other rocket flights that you have been making lately. If you haven't launched any of them, then pick one whose flight sims look especially nice to you, and (very important) will stay under the waiver and land within the launch field. In all likelihood you'll eventually launch them all on high power, so it almost appears to just be a matter of which one is ready first, or is coming up next in your launch rotation. That's quite an enviable position to be in, by the way.

Ahhhh...but you make a really good point, Mark. Of these four kits, the Iris would be best suited for test flights on a G motor before certification. The others would likely have their maiden flight as the certification flight. I may have to rethink my decision...

None of the kits are built, and I really want to certify on one before starting the others...just in case I don'know what I don't know, you know? It is true that I'm in an enviable position. I fully realize that. In the past 6 months, I have amassed an excellent collection of scale kits ranging from the BMS Astrobee 1500 to the DFR Delta IV Heavy, a very cool version of the Kappa 7-1 from ASP that Ken @ Performance stumbled across for me, and dozens more. My only problem is that I need to stop building for awhile and start flying! Orangeburg or Midland, I'll be in your neighborhood soon!

Cheers,
Michael

[Zeus-cat]

I'm with troj too. I used a LOC Iris set up for dual deploy on my first L1 attempt. I flew seven dual deploy flights on other rockets using E and F motors to get used to dual deploy before my L1 attempt. For the L1 attempt I used an H123 in the LOC Iris and the flight went well (about 1,200 feet) except my motor retention wasn't good enough. I ejected the motor case. I found it after searching for about an hour. On my second L1 attempt I stuffed an I211 in the rocket and sent it to 3,415 feet and certified. I am really glad that I used an I211 to certify instead of trying an H123 again. If you are gonna do it, then you might as well do it right and have a blast! It will be a flight you remember for a long time so make it one that you want to remember.

[MarkII]

Well, the rocket that I used for my certification, an upscale of the #0815 Estes Javelin Mini Brute, was only completed the evening before the launch. I gave it a quick coat of gray primer out on my deck at around 10pm, and attached the rail buttons about an hour before leaving for the launch field. But I had simmed it dozens and dozens of times over an extended period of time, refining the RockSim design to reflect the actual construction and then re-simming it on many different motors. So when I finally made the flight, it went exactly as expected from a technical standpoint. On an H165 the 2.25" rocket went to right around 2100 feet (exactly as RS had predicted), and drifted about 1/3 mile downrange, again exactly as predicted. What wasn't predicted and I hadn't anticipated was the mixture of thrill and awe that I felt when it launched, and the almost dreamlike feeling that I had as I walked down the range to retrieve my rocket... because everything had gone just right.

Thirty minutes earlier I had sat on the ground and assembled the motor on top of my motor box right at the site immediately before the launch; it was the first time that I had used my brand-new RMS 29/240 motor, and the first time that I had used the new AeroTech Reload Adapter System. So lots of firsts that day. But I had rehearsed nearly every aspect of that flight over and over again in simulations and through visualization for an extended period of time beforehand, so when the time came, the final preparations felt just like another mid power launch.

The only fleeting moment of anxiety that I felt was when I heard the LCO shout,

Five!
Four!
Three!
Two!
One!...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cWM8_tPpO5E


Michael, this is going to be you, next time.

[tsai]

Ahhhh...but you make a really good point, Mark. Of these four kits, the Iris would be best suited for test flights on a G motor before certification. The others would likely have their maiden flight as the certification flight. I may have to rethink my decision...

Cheers,
Michael

The Madcow FG Arcas will fly on G, no problem. I flew mine on the AT 29/40-120 case using G64 and G76 loads. Goes to ~1000. I've flown it on the CTI G54 Red Lightning Longburn motor with no issues, either. Not sure I'd drop down to an F, but the sims say it's possible.

Cheers,
- Ken

[T-Rex]

I say stick with your gut and go with your first choice. There would be something to be said for doing all your certs on different models of the same rocket. If you trust you building techniques enough to go for level 1 then whet difference does it make if it's a launch rail virgin?

There is also something to be said for Mark's comment about it becoming a closet queen. I flew my certification on a Madcow cardboard Little John. It was easy, and the price was right last fall, but it is very anti-climatic. I will have to convert it to a Tender Decender DD set up before I can take the slippers off, and until then, it is just too expensive for me to fly much. I enjoyed the build and learned a lot doing it. The certfication flight was awesome. Now it's just another rocket, nothing special.

[RadManCF]

I'd reccomend the arcas, or( if the kit uses quantum tube) the d region tomahawk, for durability. I've never built a loc kit, as I'm not a fan of cardboard for HPRs (it might land in an irrigation ditch).

[iqsy59]

I'd reccomend the arcas, or( if the kit uses quantum tube) the d region tomahawk, for durability. I've never built a loc kit, as I'm not a fan of cardboard for HPRs (it might land in an irrigation ditch).

I'm with you! The only thing that concerns me at all with the Quantum Tube is getting a good bond on the motor mount to the inside of the tube. I don't have any experience with blind sanding with a stick!

[CarVac]

Make a whip of the sandpaper on a stick and use a drill.

[RadManCF]

I'm with you! The only thing that concerns me at all with the Quantum Tube is getting a good bond on the motor mount to the inside of the tube. I don't have any experience with blind sanding with a stick!

I did my L1 cert with the PML callisto, which uses QT. I didn't think glueing to QT was so bad, the bigger issue with it is that it doesn't stand up to heat very well. Thats why it shouldn't be used for mach busting.