Level 1 Question/Help

[Spooks]

I'm pretty sure this has been asked many times in some form, for that, I apologize.

As anyone can see from my own profile, I live in Texas, and I am really wanting to get my level 1 in the next couple of months.

I say a couple of months because of timing, slow time for us (we own a restaurant besides my regular job) and kids being free.

The other side of timing is the purchase and build of said rocket (haven't decided yet what I want to build) and the fact that money for us is a bit better at this time.

Looking at the dates around the state, I am trying to find a location to get to that won't cost an arm and a leg and is kid friendly (like there isn't any) and WIFE friendly...

Ok, the last is a trick question, so we can roll with that one...lol

Any suggestions? Guidance?

Thanks,

David

[T-Rex]

Hi David,

Given your location, I would suggest that you get in contact with the group in Dallas (www . dars . org). I would think they would be able to offer the best suggestions for a launch site.

Art Applewhite maintains a list of launches statewide on his site. Thank you, Mr Applewhite! (www . artapplewhite . com / launches . html) The list is as accurate as the information he is given.

As for a build, that is personal preference. I made the choice to keep mine simple, inexpensive and low. Now I am making plans to take the slippers off and see what it will do. Build what you will fly in the future. What kind of rockets interest you? Low & slow, or Hi performance? Scale, simple or exotic? How much money is in the budget? Answer these questions for yourself to narrow down your list.

My choice was a 4" cardboard Madcow Little John. It doesn't get much simpler or inexpensive, but then I am not a speed freak, or an altitude junkie. (Yet)

Have fun, Fly safe... That's what it's all about!

Terry

[hardinlw]

There are two basic approaches to selecting a rocket to build. The one I prefer is to build a single-purpose L1 rocket. I chose the PML D Region Tomahawk. It is 3" in diameter and goes about 1500' on an H engine which keeps it within sight and will land on the field for any reasonable HPR field. With an I engine, you can get it up around 4000'.

The second approach is to build a multi-purpose rocket, either one that will fly on both mid-power (F & G) engine and L1 high power engines, or one that will fly L1 & L2 high power engines. I have a PML mini Black Brant X (2" diameter) that will fly on a G at local launches and on H & I at high power launches, but it goes so high on those engines that I fitted it out with dual deployment (altimeter controlled drogue at apogee and main at 800') which makes it too complicated for L1 cert. I also have a 4" BBX that I can fly on an I-357 to about 900' or on a J-350 to something over 3000'. In fact that was my L2 cert rocket.

Whichever approach you choose, I recommend keeping it simple. Skip the dual deployment for now. You can always add it later if you plan ahead. You don't have to go supersonic on the first flight either. Start with an engine that will kick it off the pad with authority so it will handle any wind better, but don't go extreme on the thrust for your cert. Then go out and have fun with the rocket flying a range of engines.

I gave a kid I've adopted as my "rocket son" a Wildman Jr for his birthday a year or so back. The kit is all fiberglass and set up for dual deployment. We just rivited the upper parts together (the PML nylon rivits) so he could use engine-based deployment. He got his Jr. L1 last year on an H. We flew it this weekend on an I to 3000'+, still engine deployment. After he has a few more flights on it, we'll add the electronics to go dual deployment.

[Stewart]

What rockets have you built and flown to date?? How far up the ladder do you intend going?? would you like to be able to fly your cert rocket on midpower motors ? or only on highpower motors ? these are the Q's you need to answer for yourself befor decideing on which rocket.
I used a PM Quicksilver for my L1 cert , flew it on G64,G76 motors(900ft) a few times befor and since , also have flown it on G138, H128W, H165R (1,500ft), H220T(2,000ft), next launch I'm upping the anti on it to an I161W (3,600ft)or I305Fj (4,700ft) depending whats available to use on the day an I284W (6,200ft) is about the extreme limit for this rocket. Overal im pleased with my choice as its proven to be both tough and versatile.
Other members in my club have used the PM Callisto and X-Caliber for mid to L1 flying and all have been pleased with them.
Ultimately the choice is yours
stewart

[Handeman]

I agree with hardinlw on the two approaches he mentions, I like the dedicated L1 rocket idea best. I do not agree with the keep it simple idea for the cert. Either way, make sure you know what your goal is and why you are doing the L1 in the first place.

Your L1 rocket is an opportunity for a great learning experience and a chance to get a L1 rocket you'll fly a lot with L1 motors. The problem with the MPR/L1 is that the L1 motors usually get a lot of altitude so you end up flying it on MPR motors most of the time. The L1/L2 tend to be heavy and need I motors to get any decent altitude and then the J+ motors get a lot of altitude. Having the dedicated L1 lets you keep it low and slow on baby H motors and lets it gets some legs on big I motors. As for keeping it simple, why? If you want to get some altitude with it and fly DD, why not start with the cert flight? I did mine on a dedicated scratch build DD L1 rocket with Loki I110 moonburner. The 4.2 second burn time got it 4,200 ft. I learned more designing, building, and flying that rocket then any single rocket before or since, which was the real goal. If the goal had been the L1, I had a couple of rockets I could have flown with a baby H 4 years earlier.

[Sully]

As someone who is fairly new to the hobby, and maybe a few months farther down the same path you're on, I'll share my experience. I have no genius or expert advice, just my own perspective.

I recently got L1 on a Madcow Patriot 4" rocket with a 38mm MM. It was a pretty straightforward build, and I learned a lot by following suggestions and tips I read here. I also made some newbie mistakes and my next build will be better for it. Currently I'm building the next one, a Basic Blues 4" blue tube rocket with a 54mm MM. This will be my level 2 bird, but it will fly nicely on L1 motors to shake things out.

I 'm also making an e-bay for the Patriot to convert it to DD. learning a lot with this process too. I want to be comfortable with DD before my level 2 attempt.

So as a newbie to HPR, my advice would be to build a new rocket for each cert, even if each of the rockets are versatile. I like the progression of increasing motor size, new materials, and the addition of electronics. It feels like the certs aren't just about arbitrary rules around bigger motors. I'm not sure if I'll go for L3 or not, but my next build will probably be a fiberglass one.

For me the hobby is a great diversion and after-work activity. It's also something I enjoy with my kids, we can have fun, foster some STEM-type thinking and interest, and do cool things like go to LDRS.

Take your time, have fun, go to any club launches you can and check out people's rockets. Ask questions. Volunteer to take pictures or video of other peoples flights. Enjoy the hobby and the community. If breaking Mach or hitting 50k feet float your boat, then you can have those kinds of goals. If you just want to sit in a lawn chair and kibitz with like-minded folk and watch the sparky motors go up, we've got that too!

Welcome and have fun!

[Spooks]

Thanks for all of the input, it does help with deciding what I should be looking for. Being a BAR, I do want to do something that is on the more challenging side, and is also fun to build, being that I have built over 20 LPR and MPR kits with my kids over the last 8 months, and what I say was at least 90% of the Estes catalog back in the day...

I do like the idea of building one that is versatile, but since I enjoy building them as much as I enjoy flying them, I am totally fine in building a new ship each time, and the kids love that too, so win win for me!

I do want to make some local club launches, and definitely would like to work towards L2 down the road because DD is something I really want to tackle, I do love the challenges this hobby brings even at my age!! LOL

[mjhall]

My choice would be the Madcow Arcas. It is an all fiberglass kit that can can fly on 29mm and 38mm motors and can be converted to dual-deploy whenever you are ready. Very durable and flexible rocket.

[gwolski]

Some really good advice here - that's one of the reasons I like TRF.

Here's my $0.02 - I would recommend a 4" rocket with a 38mm motor mount, something similar to Binder Design's Excel. I flew my L1 on a BSD 4" Horizon on an H128W reload. Awesome rocket! I later added an avionics bay for dual deployment and was able to also use it to fly my L2. However, I still love flying it in the original configuration. Having a 38mm motor mount gives me a lot of flexibility in motor choices.

Good luck with your L1!

[k-rad du0d]

Lots of good stuff here. I'll just say don't skimp on the materials. You'll be happier with a fiberglass rocket in the longrun.

[Spooks]

I am very grateful for all of the suggestions and replies, I wanted to go FG but had to consider a budget this go around.

I went with the LOC IV, Cesaroni motor, and some custom work from our good friend from Stickershock!

Plan is to get it built (pretty straight forward), wrap her up, and make the flight...

Thanks again!!

[Coop]

My L1 was a LOC Minie-Magg and a Cesaroni H-120RL because it was a big, solid, and relatively inexpensive rocket that I figured I'd get a lot of use out of further on down the line. I was right--I love flying that thing! While she flew just fine on the H-120, she really kicks off on I's. I could have went cheaper by a few bucks, but I built the rocket I wanted to build --which was, for me, the whole idea...


Later!

--Coop

[grouch]

Spooks, don't worry about the glass yet, no need. There is plenty of performance to be had out of a paper rocket. Just build you something that looks cool and can take an H and you are all set. The Loc IV is perfect for your cert flight, saw a guy yesterday get his L1 on one then proceeded to fly the crap out of it on H power the rest of the day. There are no hard and fast rules like having a dedicated L1 rocket then build an L2 bird. For example, I flew my first DD flight yesterday on G power then turned around and put a J in it for my L2. So now I have a rocket that will do mid power up to 6 grain L2 motors. Performance on the G? How about 1722ft! You can have one rocket that does it all, but the fun lies in having a lot of rockets that do a lot! Also there is no real reason to get a L1 unless that's the goal. You can have tons of performance on 24mm and 29mm without the cert. Much more performance than most people's field can tolerate. CTI? Awesome!!!

[Spooks]

Thanks guys, I am really looking forward to the building of this and the launch, I love to build rockets and launch them, they ALL should fly once built!!

My kids are the same way, my 15 year old has just completed a great looking ACME Spitfire and my youngest has built two so far. Getting certified is something I really want to do, and the whole family is on board with it and want to attend the launches, even here in the Texas heat!!

I really think I have my wife convinced to head up to Airfest on Labor Day, might even try to camp...

Either way I am taking my time, enjoying the build itself, reading posts on here and suggestions and techniques I seen here and elsewhere, I just want to do it right and learn as much as I can in the process. One thing that does suck, having to wait on a few things I forgot to get ahead of time!! LOL

[BLKKROW]

Thanks to everyone for their replies, this thread has helped me decided on what to do with my Level 1 build.

Go big or go home!

[Spooks]

Well now that I have everything in I am starting my build tonight...

I went with a Cesaroni 38mm H125 as they have a special right now, but the motor and the case is free!!

I am only doing some minor mod work, one being the shock cord, I am adding a u-bolt to the forward CR to allow for a strong placement for the shock cord. I am also tinkering with the thought of adding an eye bolt to the nose cone, set in place with a little JB Weld.

Without knowing the exact added weight, epoxy, eye bolt, u-bolt, JB weld, I am trying to find the best delay for the motor...

So far looking in Open Rocket and using the Demo of RockSim (blew my rocket budget for this month and half of next month..lol) they both are suggesting a delay time for 9 seconds.

That seems a bit long for this one, more of a feeling to me, but I was thinking no more than 7?

I was really hoping someone here could offer a little advice on the delay, I did get the ProDAT tool as I intend to use mostly Cesaroni motors on all my HPR builds!!

[grouch]

I ran a flight with the 38mm H125 Classic on my RockSim and get an apogee at 11.58 seconds meaning you wouldn't have to touch the delay at all. Other motors with the same burn time and similar newtons gets the same thing. The H120 for example is an 11.71 second apogee. That seems a little long to me so I ran a sim on the Heavy Duty Beauty with an H140CL which is a similar motor but in 29mm and it is almost the same flight. The HDB is a cluster version of the Loc IV with a 29mm center and 4 24mm motors surrounding it. I ran the sim without the 24mm motors by the way. I think you will zipper the lightweight airframe with a 7 second delay.

As far as the ProDat tool goes, easy as pie. Just remember that it takes away the desired seconds from the total delay. For example if your motor has a 14 second delay and you wish to set to for a 7 second delay, set the ProDat tool on -7 and insert the delay cartridge in the tool and start twisting until a nice little hole is drilled out.

[Spooks]

Yeah, I got that on the tool, subtract only what you want it to be...

I was just concerned that 12 second delay might be a bit long and could do the same zipper as you mentioned on the 7 sec delay.

This is my first level one attempt and I would rather it be a success!! LOL

[grouch]

Fly it a couple of times on a G just break it in and get comfortable with it.

[Spooks]

Think I will do just that!!

Thanks grouch!!

[BLKKROW]

Think I will do just that!!

Thanks grouch!!

Do you have an approximate weight?

I flew a 1400 gram PML Spitfire, the other day which is a 3" diameter and a pretty long bird. I flew it on a G50, so a smaller motor then you are. Mine was a 6 scond delay and worked perfect, so if your rocket is about the same weight and a bigger motor then I think anywhere from 8-12 depending on the weight/drag would be good.

[Spooks]

I was able to get my level one today with Tripoli Houston, great group of people, wasn't as elegant as I had hoped, I was distracted packing the chute and somehow I had it tangled so it acted like a heavy duty streamer! LOL

Landing was a bit rough, but everything was in one piece with minor scratches to the fins, helluva flight too!!

Didn't get a pic or video of the launch, camera went goofy and my phone didn't cooperate either, attached a pic of it, wrap and decals from Stickershock.
Thanks to everyone who contributed here!!

Off to plan for Level 2 !!

[bill2654]

Congrats! Way to GO!

[DM1975]

Congrats on the certification!

[eggplant]

Great job! The rocket and decal look awesome.

[Spooks]

Thanks!

Was a great day really, first real HPR launch, there was some great success, a bit of tragedy with one shred, and one almost lost in the brush, but seems everyone had a great time!!

I was just glad mine landed about 25 ft from the pad!! LOL

[DM1975]

Thanks!

Was a great day really, first real HPR launch, there was some great success, a bit of tragedy with one shred, and one almost lost in the brush, but seems everyone had a great time!!

I was just glad mine landed about 25 ft from the pad!! LOL

Good deal. My L1 rocket landed in a corn field and it took me over an hour to find it even with a GPS on board. My L2 landed over a mile away and was dangling in a tree over a stream. Had I not had the gps tracker on it I would have never found it.

[Disaster_Guy]

Congrats on the cert. Don't feel bad about recovery. I spent almost two hours looking for mine after my certification flight. I went a little bit too large on the chute (36" on a 3.5lb rocket). After that experience I overbuild my rockets and bring them down on the smallest chutes that I safely can.