New rules for mass launches?

[Verna]

Randy and I have heard there are, or may be, some new rules coming soon for drag races and launching multiple rockets at the same time. Forgive me but since I am not always up to the minute on these kinds of changes I thought I would ask if anyone here can state the specific facts.

Thanks,
Verna
www.vernarockets.com

[UhClem]

New versions of NFPA 1122 and 1127 till take effect shortly (18 June at the earliest) and both have new mass launch rules.

When more than ten model rockets are launched the minimum safe distance is 1.5 times the maximum altitude expected for any model.

When launching three or more high power rockets the minimum safe distance is that for a complex rocket with the same total impulse.

All the details of the proposed changes can be found on the NFPA web site.

[troj]

NAR also updated their Safety Codes to be in compliance with the upcoming NFPA codes.

The revisions are available near the end of Trip Barber's State of the NAR from April.

-Kevin

[powderburner]

NewWhen more than ten model rockets are launched the minimum safe distance is 1.5 times the maximum altitude expected for any model.

So, when somebody wants to set a new record for the largest number of Mosquitos (or something), that maybe go 500 ft, they will have to set the launchers back 750 ft from the crowd? Really? Did anybody think this through?

[billspad]

So, when somebody wants to set a new record for the largest number of Mosquitos (or something), that maybe go 500 ft, they will have to set the launchers back 750 ft from the crowd? Really? Did anybody think this through?

I'm pretty sure they did. There was a video that I can't find now from a year or so ago that shows a large amount of small rockets being launched at what would be the safe distance for a single rocket and quite a few of them were falling into the crowd. With a lot of rockets in the air you could easily not see that one that's coming in ballistic right over your head. Want a loophole? Set them up in banks of 10 and launch the banks consecutively. Okay, you're not going to get in the Guiness Book doing it that way but the effect will be the same.

[k-rad du0d]

So a drag race with some Ns would require the spectators to be back like 4 or 5 miles? lolwut

Edit: ignore me - I read it wrong

[Rocketbuilder]

The Tripoli club I go to launches more than one rocket at once pretty frequently, but most of the time it's unintentional. The wrong one getting launched is not that uncommon either, at the launches I've been to.
As the guy standing next to me said when my rocket was accidentally launched instead of the one next to it (fortunately I was paying attention): "That's why we're Tripoli, not NAR."

[shreadvector]

Yes, it was thought through and discussed quite a bit during the comment period.

Virtually every mass launch of Model Rockets has had rockets collide and fly off horizontally with many landing in and hitting people in the "crowd". This is unacceptable from a liability standpoint. These are glorified pyrotechnic displays and not safe Model Rocket launches.

EVERYONE needs to be 1.5 times the maximum altitude, the crowd and the launch control.

Rockets with the motors still buring or the ejection charges firing that land on spectators is insane and dangerous.

So, when somebody wants to set a new record for the largest number of Mosquitos (or something), that maybe go 500 ft, they will have to set the launchers back 750 ft from the crowd? Really? Did anybody think this through?

[troj]

The Tripoli club I go to launches more than one rocket at once pretty frequently, but most of the time it's unintentional. The wrong one getting launched is not that uncommon either, at the launches I've been to.
As the guy standing next to me said when my rocket was accidentally launched instead of the one next to it (fortunately I was paying attention): "That's why we're Tripoli, not NAR."

The club you fly with either needs to fix the problem with their launcher, or train people to use it properly.

The comment you received is inappropriate, and does not reflect on the attitude of the vast majority of Tripoli members.

-Kevin

[Pantherjon]

The club you fly with either needs to fix the problem with their launcher, or train people to use it properly.

The comment you received is inappropriate, and does not reflect on the attitude of the vast majority of Tripoli members.

-Kevin

It happens sometimes at our club as well..The relay box wires sometimes get crossed..or the adjacent pad arm switch is in the armed position and the LCO doesn't notice(until he pushes the launch button)..It has happened to me a couple of times when I was LCO at a few launches..Embarrassing

Yeah, that comment IS inappropriate

[Zonie]

THAT's why I like to use my OWN pad.

The Tripoli club I go to launches more than one rocket at once pretty frequently, but most of the time it's unintentional. The wrong one getting launched is not that uncommon either, at the launches I've been to.
As the guy standing next to me said when my rocket was accidentally launched instead of the one next to it (fortunately I was paying attention): "That's why we're Tripoli, not NAR."

[Rocketbuilder]

The club you fly with either needs to fix the problem with their launcher, or train people to use it properly.

The comment you received is inappropriate, and does not reflect on the attitude of the vast majority of Tripoli members.

-Kevin

It was not meant in an offensive way at all, though I may have done a bad job of communticating that. The rocket flew perfectly, and all was well. (It was only a LPR btw.)
They were having a few problems with the box, the LCO may have just hit the wrong switch. He was pretty apologetic about it.
Also, when I said pretty frequently, that was somewhat of an exaggeration, it has only happened a few times.
Everyone at the club is very friendly, and nobody holds a grudge if the volunteer LCO makes a mistake. It's a fairly informal club, but not unsafe.
Hope this clears things up. As is often said, some things are difficult to communicate via typing.
Sorry for getting so off-topic.

[Verna]

I spent about an hour this afternoon going through the NAR/NFPA websites (thanks to all for the links) and I now have an enlarged copy of the Safety Code that takes effect this coming August. I say enlarged because when I scanned Trip's letter a few days ago the Safety Code attached was so small I couldn't read it, so I didn't.

I can now see in Section 5 of the Model Code where it refers to more than 10 at a time for LPR. And the HPR code that refers to NFPA 1127. It would be nice if the HPR code stated things a little more clearly rather than a mere reference to NFPA 1127, especially since the NFPA site is so cluttered that finding anything there is akin to locating a specific grain of sand on a very large beach.

It is what it is but in my opinion, the LPR code pertaining to multiple launches is more reasonable than the HPR code since as someone said, under some senarios you would actually need to be a mile or more away to launch some high power rockets but I can see where in some cases, limiting the numbers in a mass launch is a good thing, as long as it doesn't get rediculous. To me moving so far away that seeing the launch is difficult is counter-productive and I have to wonder if the point pertaining to HPR is to eliminate launching more than one at a time.

FWIW, as far as my personal experience goes the most we've launched off of club racks was 10 Alphas at a time, but we've done that at demos and for large launches for years and years, dozens of times and never had a single collision. Of course if you're launching several dozen at the same time from a 5'x5' area that's asking for a problem.

Verna
www.vernarockets.com

[UhClem]

I can now see in Section 5 of the Model Code where it refers to more than 10 at a time for LPR. And the HPR code that refers to NFPA 1127. It would be nice if the HPR code stated things a little more clearly rather than a mere reference to NFPA 1127, especially since the NFPA site is so cluttered that finding anything there is akin to locating a specific grain of sand on a very large beach.

Just use Google and search for "NFPA 1127" and you will get a link directly to that page. Or at least I do.

A little publicized item is that it is NAR policy to follow NFPA 1122 and 1127 on all NAR sport ranges. (But at least they publish the policies now.) So while the new NAR short form safety codes take effect in August, you will need to follow the new rules as soon as the NFPA codes take effect. Which should be 18 June for NFPA 1122.

NAR is being a bit inconsistent on this because NAR S&T has already changed the designation of some G impulse motors from high power to model in their combined motor list that have more than 62.5 grams but less than 125 grams of propelant even before the changes to NFPA 1122 and 1127 take effect. I have tried to explain the problem to them but they insist that all that matters to them is NFPA 1125 which changed last year.

under some senarios you would actually need to be a mile or more away to launch some high power rockets

The minimum safe distance tops out at 2,000'. Well, it does in the version accepted in the Report on Comments. There is an unknown ammendment that will be voted on at the June NFPA meeting.

[cwbullet]

I guess that means we need to have heats of 5 rockets.

[JPVegh]

I'm sure I'm gonna get a beat down for this but I've never liked the idea of HPR drag races. When a large rocket goes up I like to track it until there is a good chute deployment and really all the way to the ground or at least until it's sure that it won't land somewhere it shouldn't. With multiple rockets in the air it's tough to keep track of whats happening. Situational awareness is what prevents bad things from happening, why make the situation more complex than it should be?

[RoyAtl]

I'm sure I'm gonna get a beat down for this but I've never liked the idea of HPR drag races. When a large rocket goes up I like to track it until there is a good chute deployment and really all the way to the ground or at least until it's sure that it won't land somewhere it shouldn't. With multiple rockets in the air it's tough to keep track of whats happening. Situational awareness is what prevents bad things from happening, why make the situation more complex than it should be?

+1000

Unless there's a significant observational point to a drag race (i.e. comparing two flights -- unpainted vs finished -- low ave thrust vs high ave thrust -- NAR contest heat, etc), then I'm agin' all drag races. I'd rather enjoy two complete, separate flights than try to divide my attention between two or more rockets at the same time.

And as they get to larger multiples, they are just fireworks displays.

[ClayD]

I'm sure I'm gonna get a beat down for this but I've never liked the idea of HPR drag races. When a large rocket goes up I like to track it until there is a good chute deployment and really all the way to the ground or at least until it's sure that it won't land somewhere it shouldn't. With multiple rockets in the air it's tough to keep track of whats happening. Situational awareness is what prevents bad things from happening, why make the situation more complex than it should be?

While i like a drag race, en masse on the other hand is unsafe, no one can tell me it is... Infact me and my 4 year old son, were with our only close call ever from a 16 rocket launch. The impact he still remembers.(6 foot away) (12lb warlok)

Far 101.23 Section 4
(4) Does not create a hazard to persons, property, or other aircraft.


By flying a rocket in an environment, one within reason could expect two aircraft to collide, you are violating this regulation. History dictates en masse launches have had mid air collisions.
Now that NFPA has inluded en masse to the code, it may provide insuring benefit in the err of an accident. However, if the "aviation" attorneys, look at far, Insurance may find a clever way to deny any insurance claim stemming form a luanch that had an accident because the hosting club was unable to call out all hazards efficiently based on our code stipulations, and is clearly against the FAR 101 precurser.

:????

1.5 x the max expected altitude means any cep is not in a spectating zone. so maybe that helps the argument, it was done to not harm anyone...
I happen to like that idea, and i do support it.

[sylvie369]

I'm sure I'm gonna get a beat down for this but I've never liked the idea of HPR drag races.

To be honest, I agree. I've seen enough drag races. They're cool, sure, but not THAT cool. And I'd never fly in an HPR drag race against more than one other rocket. My ability to track my rocket is bad enough already.

[rcktnut]

I'm sure I'm gonna get a beat down for this but I've never liked the idea of HPR drag races. When a large rocket goes up I like to track it until there is a good chute deployment and really all the way to the ground or at least until it's sure that it won't land somewhere it shouldn't. With multiple rockets in the air it's tough to keep track of whats happening. Situational awareness is what prevents bad things from happening, why make the situation more complex than it should be?

I agree also. Putting a number of rockets up at one time that spectators can not follow, possiblity of collisions, go out of sight, "shed" parts etc. is totally irresponsible as far as I'm concerned. Putting kick ass motors in a bunch of rockets and sending them out of sight is bull.

[cwbullet]

I have done a few drag races. I am not impressed. I would prefer multiple launches and compare altitude / velocity. The more in a heat, the harder it is to find your rocket and I use a tracker.

[blackbrandt]

Wait, so no more launching rockets at 0900 Sunday Mass?!?!?!?!?

[Zeus-cat]

I am not a fan of drag races either; I always decline to participate in any that our club does. I have no problem with other people doing it; I just don't see the thrill in it when it is one of my rockets on the pad.

[luke strawwalker]

Yes, it was thought through and discussed quite a bit during the comment period.

Virtually every mass launch of Model Rockets has had rockets collide and fly off horizontally with many landing in and hitting people in the "crowd". This is unacceptable from a liability standpoint. These are glorified pyrotechnic displays and not safe Model Rocket launches.

EVERYONE needs to be 1.5 times the maximum altitude, the crowd and the launch control.

Rockets with the motors still buring or the ejection charges firing that land on spectators is insane and dangerous.

Good point Fred... thing is, a rocket capable of flying to a 500 foot altitude vertically that gets knocked off to a 45 degree angle at liftoff is capable of flying 1,000 feet downrange... so the "1.5X altitude" rule actually seems insufficient in view of this. I guess it was a tradeoff between (granted) somewhat remote possibility of a rocket in a mass launching getting knocked over to a 45 degree angle right off the rod and the necessities of having such launches in view of the crowds instead of out on the horizon somewhere in the distance. I'm not a huge fan of these "mass launches" myself-- like you said, more pyrotechnic display type nonsense than actual model rocketry.

I guess it's about as good a tradeoff as one could hope for... Later! OL JR

[luke strawwalker]

THAT's why I like to use my OWN pad.

EXACTLY...AND controller...
Any "small" club that doesn't have sufficient discipline for folks to use their own pads and controllers needs work IMHO... course, that said, if you've got truly HUGE launches with dozens and dozens of people, then I can see the counterpoint that a central controller is necessary for safety and organizational reasons...

Later! OL JR

[kelltym88]

I, for one, think drag races are cool. I've seen several, and there's never been a time where anyone was in danger. As with any launch, precautions should and can be taken when "drag racing". I really don't see the big deal, butt that's me.

[cwbullet]

I, for one, think drag races are cool. I've seen several, and there's never been a time where anyone was in danger. As with any launch, precautions should and can be taken when "drag racing". I really don't see the big deal, butt that's me.

I too wonder why the change. I liveby rules, but I often wonder why. I have never seen a drag race go wrong, but I am sure there is a reason.

[ClayD]

I believe people actualy complained that the mass launches from LDRS 29 sparked the commenting changes in NFPA revision.

[ClayD]

EXACTLY...AND controller...
Any "small" club that doesn't have sufficient discipline for folks to use their own pads and controllers needs work IMHO... course, that said, if you've got truly HUGE launches with dozens and dozens of people, then I can see the counterpoint that a central controller is necessary for safety and organizational reasons...

Later! OL JR

All of the sites i fly at would not care if you brought your own pad, however most i know would take issue with the waiver holder not having control of the flights igntion system.
We have all seen the wrong rocket launched, and it wont be the last any time soon....

I wish....... it was a mandate in the safety codes, that a warning tone, and 5 second delay was mandated before a signal would luanch a rocket.

IE.. your preping a rocket and hear the tone..> RUN

[luke strawwalker]

All of the sites i fly at would not care if you brought your own pad, however most i know would take issue with the waiver holder not having control of the flights igntion system.
We have all seen the wrong rocket launched, and it wont be the last any time soon....

I wish....... it was a mandate in the safety codes, that a warning tone, and 5 second delay was mandated before a signal would luanch a rocket.

IE.. your preping a rocket and hear the tone..> RUN

Well, waiver issues aren't really a problem since the clubs that fly on our land aren't allowed to fly HPR on our property. With a smaller club, it's nice to be able to use your own equipment. I don't have a PROBLEM with the club equipment (other than the pads are fugly) but I don't like being *forced* to use it and forbidden to use my own.

As for the other, isn't that the purpose of the AUDIBLE COUNTDOWN?? IIRC the safety code DOES mention giving a 5 second countdown (or it should-- I could be wrong-- I read a LOT of stuff). WHY would ANYBODY be launching with folks out at the pad?? Unless you're doing a "misfire alley" system with pads spread 15-30 feet apart (per the standoff distances as required by the applicable safety codes) so that NOBODY is closer than the minimum safety code required distance from the pad that's launching. In the case of a club controller, I don't think ANYBODY should be allowed at the pads even if they're spaced well apart during launch operations, because in the event of a mistake where the wrong rocket is launched, *I* wouldn't want the rocket "right next to me" lifting off when the one on the far end was the one that was SUPPOSED to be lifting off...

IMHO it's just not worth the risk... Later! OL JR