Estes Sonic Igniter Pro Series II Igniters suck!

[JPVegh]

I've observed that the pyrogen on Solar igniters isn't self-sustaining burn-wise. When I built a 12V ignition and tested it, my first test was botched by the fuse in the lighter adaptor I was using to connect to the 12V jump pack that was my power source. Video of this is over in the Electronics forum somewhere.

So, I hit the launch button, and the ignitors (I had 4 testing cluster ignition simulation) fired briefly. AFter I replaced the fuse that burned out almost instantly, I hit the button again and the ignitors re-lit and burned the rest of their pyrogen.

With this 12V system, I have also recovered Quest Q2G2 ignitors that were less than half burnt. My theory is their wire ignited enough pyrogen to ignite the black powder motor, then they got blasted out the nozzel and extinguished. I saved one and tested it at home. The bridge wire was broken, and the pyrogen (about half of it) was still intact and flamed nicely when I held a lighter to it.

So, the idea that excess power to an ignitor could make the bridge wire break and result in less than optimal pyrogen burn is well within my idea of possible effects. To be clear, though, I've never observed a motor ignition failure due to it.

MArc

A little off topic here but after burning through several fuses in my lighter plug I switched to slow blow fuses and have not had to replace one since. Slow blows still offer protection against dead shorts without popping on momentary shorts.

Sorry for the brief hijack.

[Rocketjunkie]

From Sonic igniter package:
No fire current 1.25A
All fire current 3.8A
Resistance 1.6 ohm.
With these specs, you will need a minimum of 6.1V *at the igniter*. This means a 12V system is needed. If you have 12V at the igniter, it will draw about 7A until it fires.

IMO, Estes is shooting themselves in the foot with first, not including the igniter with the motor and then having a very high failure rate if the user has remembered to buy the separate igniters. Most users will have bought a kit and motor at a hobby shop and won't know about alternative igniters. There are going to be a LOT of frustrated people who won't buy another Estes product. Unless the igniter issue is resolved quickly, the Pro series won't be around long.

[ClayD]

estes ignitors in a pinch i have just plugged in an extension cord... YES, 110v
worked fine....
i have also been known to just light estes motors with the lead from a shorted ignitor.

i only use 12v batteries, and its all i have ever uesed.... Never had a problem with estes stuff handling 12volt.

[RadManCF]

Ok Fred,

So it wasn't a statement it was a suspicion but thanks for clarifying it anyway. Here's the real question then - WHY WOULD ESTES/AEROTECH RELEASE ANOTHER UNDEPENDABLE IGNITER? Seriously, in my club which BTW contains some very experienced and generally well meaning fellows like myself, we use the superior First Fire Jr. ignitor for almost every AP motor launched. If a motor fails to fire the first question ALWAYS ASKED IS - "ARE YOU TRYING TO USE A COPPERHEAD?" Not "WHAT IGNITER DID YOU USE." It has become sort of a sad joke with us. The point is, and I sing this loudly to the treetops so ALL (ESTES AND AEROTECH) CAN HEAR - "LOSE THE COPPERHEAD AND THE NEW ESTES SONIC IGNITERS! - THEY ARE UN-RELIABLE! THE FIRST FIRE JUNIOR IGNITERS ARE NEARLY 100% RELIABLE! WE KNOW THAT YOU KNOW THIS ALSO BECAUSE OF HOW MUCH MORE EXPENSIVE THE FIRST FIRE JUNIORS ARE!! WE DON'T CARE!! RAISE THE PRICE OF MOTORS A COUPLE BUCKS AND GIVE US AN IGNITER THAT'S WORTH A $#9%!!!!

Rant over

thanks friends.

FWW, the first fire jr. won't fit through the AT 24mm nozzles.

[Marc_G]

A little off topic here but after burning through several fuses in my lighter plug I switched to slow blow fuses and have not had to replace one since. Slow blows still offer protection against dead shorts without popping on momentary shorts.

Sorry for the brief hijack.

Confirmed; I went the same route. <hijack ends>

[luke strawwalker]

From Sonic igniter package:
No fire current 1.25A
All fire current 3.8A
Resistance 1.6 ohm.
With these specs, you will need a minimum of 6.1V *at the igniter*. This means a 12V system is needed. If you have 12V at the igniter, it will draw about 7A until it fires.

IMO, Estes is shooting themselves in the foot with first, not including the igniter with the motor and then having a very high failure rate if the user has remembered to buy the separate igniters. Most users will have bought a kit and motor at a hobby shop and won't know about alternative igniters. There are going to be a LOT of frustrated people who won't buy another Estes product. Unless the igniter issue is resolved quickly, the Pro series won't be around long.

Gonna be a LOT of disappointed people trying to light these with regular Estes controllers or the "E" controllers then...

later! OL JR

[luke strawwalker]

estes ignitors in a pinch i have just plugged in an extension cord... YES, 110v
worked fine.....

I'd chalk that one up to luck more than anything... but if the resistance is high enough and the bridge wire can handle it, then I could see how it'd work... basically a light bulb filament...

i have also been known to just light estes motors with the lead from a shorted ignitor..

Not sure what you mean by this... I've tested my controllers out after working on them by burning a couple old ignitors, and then pulling the spent wires out of the tape, and cutting partway through them with needle nose pliers to create a thin spot, and then clipping the leads to it... they burn through at the thin spot with a satisfying ZAP! arc and pop... guess if this was in the motor it could do the job...

i only use 12v batteries, and its all i have ever uesed.... Never had a problem with estes stuff handling 12volt.

Exactly... OL JR

[Txnrcr]

I used the new Estes Pro Series ignitors for the first time today.
3 for 3 success rate.
Estes G40-7
Estes F26-6
Aerotech E15-4 (and a very old one at that)

All of the ignitons were instant.

12V club launch system.
Slight bend in the wire just under the pyrogen to insure contact with grain.

Worked for me, didn't have any problems with them.

[MrGneissGuy]

I am four for four on the new Estes ignitors, two on F motors and two on G motors. But then I also have about an 80% success rate with the Copperheads, which seems to be a pretty high rate reading these forums. If it means anything, when I've had Copperhead failures, the ignitors failed to burn at all. It appears in those cases I messed up the strips somehow, resulting in a short. Every one that burned, lit the motor (I use the Aerotech copperhead clip). Maybe our club's system is just really good.

[luke strawwalker]

I am four for four on the new Estes ignitors, two on F motors and two on G motors. But then I also have about an 80% success rate with the Copperheads, which seems to be a pretty high rate reading these forums. If it means anything, when I've had Copperhead failures, the ignitors failed to burn at all. It appears in those cases I messed up the strips somehow, resulting in a short. Every one that burned, lit the motor (I use the Aerotech copperhead clip). Maybe our club's system is just really good.

It's more personal technique than the equipment... as I pointed out before... either the launcher provides enough power to fire the ignitor, or it doesn't... once the electical heat is delivered, the rest is up to the pyrogen and how the ignitor was installed in the motor... The controller's only job is providing enough juice to light the pyrogen...

later! OL JR

[KenRico]

From Sonic igniter package:
No fire current 1.25A
All fire current 3.8A
Resistance 1.6 ohm.
With these specs, you will need a minimum of 6.1V *at the igniter*. This means a 12V system is needed. If you have 12V at the igniter, it will draw about 7A until it fires.

IMO, Estes is shooting themselves in the foot with first, not including the igniter with the motor and then having a very high failure rate if the user has remembered to buy the separate igniters. Most users will have bought a kit and motor at a hobby shop and won't know about alternative igniters. There are going to be a LOT of frustrated people who won't buy another Estes product. Unless the igniter issue is resolved quickly, the Pro series won't be around long.

So this is a NO GO for Q2G2 or electric match replacement for ideal 9v powered dual deployment charge squib .

Not trying to reinvent the wheel, but they can be easier to find right now than Q2G2 and a bit cheaper.

Kenny

[chadrog]

So this is a NO GO for Q2G2 or electric match replacement for ideal 9v powered dual deployment charge squib .

Not trying to reinvent the wheel, but they can be easier to find right now than Q2G2 and a bit cheaper.

Kenny

I tried using them as such last year, fail.

[goldlizard]

My Club has had really bad luck with Copperheads for over a year now, 100% chuffs.

[Rex R]

chuffs usually mean that you're not getting the ignitor fully seated in the motor.
rex

[goldlizard]

chuffs usually mean that you're not getting the ignitor fully seated in the motor.
rex

They are burning but not igniting the grains of propellant, as a kid we called them "Genies" just a puff of smoke.

[Andy Greene]

I had a bunch of the Estes Pro Series one's fail, I found if I used 2 of them at once the fired every time.


Andy

[Grimracer]

I had a bunch of the Estes Pro Series one's fail, I found if I used 2 of them at once the fired every time.
They suck..........

Andy

It can indeed be tought to get a product to maket that must meet so many factors.

Lets see what happens in the future. Estes/we has been there for us in the past and I bet they are listening!

Cheers and good flights to all!

Grimracer

[Andy Greene]

It can indeed be tought to get a product to maket that must meet so many factors.

Lets see what happens in the future. Estes/we has been there for us in the past and I bet they are listening!

Cheers and good flights to all!

Grimracer

Dont take that the wrong way Grim, I'm thrilled with the rocket/motor combo I'm flying and when I did have a problem, they more than made it right. I'm just saying its frustrating to have to use 2 ignitors to ensure your motor fires every time.

Andy

[Grimracer]

Dont take that the wrong way Grim, I'm thrilled with the rocket/motor combo I'm flying and when I did have a problem, they more than made it right. I'm just saying its frustrating to have to use 2 ignitors to ensure your motor fires every time.

Andy

None taken Andy.. Im just old school as the word "Suck" is still one of those words. however not Sh%$" still says the same thing.

Some choose to take the time to understand and communicate the issue in an attempt to solve. Some bitch because thats the path of least resistance.

Take care man.. and whatever you do.. PLEASE know im not upset. After doing this kind of stuff for so long, my brain has a large callas on it. lol

Grim

[rocketron1948]

I've read so much bad publicity about the Estes igniters I never bothered to buy any. I've had good success with the Aerotech First Fire Jr. igniters. No failures on any of the Estes (Aerotech) motors. They were all fired from the Jackson Model Rocketry Club launch system with lots of juice.

Because they are too cheap to give you an igniter with the engines I would recommend just going with the First Fire Jr. igniters. It's hard to understand why the Estes ones are so bad their igniters foe A-E motors always work great.

Rocketron

[bill_s]

^^-- the BP motors are a lot easier to light ... and there are still some compliants! One thing about the Sonics is they're the easiest to get in, but clearly they could use a better dip. I had one light a G40 first try. The other two I poured into trying to light an E20 without success, finally got it lit on a Copperhead! Also my first First Fire Jr. on a G80 took a second try. Copperheads are the only APCP lighter I'm at 100% with so far.

[sodmeister]

^^-- the BP motors are a lot easier to light ... and there are still some compliants! One thing about the Sonics is they're the easiest to get in, but clearly they could use a better dip. I had one light a G40 first try. The other two I poured into trying to light an E20 without success, finally got it lit on a Copperhead! Also my first First Fire Jr. on a G80 took a second try. Copperheads are the only APCP lighter I'm at 100% with so far.

Isn`t that the funniest thing ? 100 % with Copperheads !!!!! I pretty much have the same success with them and of course First Fire Jrs.

Do the tape method or split the leads and go !

Quest Q igniters are a joy on BP.

Estes Sonics ,well you need to bend them at 14 degree angles 4.5 times ,then insert while standing on one foot while looking directly into the sun and singing a Gregorian chant ( Elvis songs may be substituted )

I threw mine into the bushes after a few tries

I did do some test last summer (it`s in this thread somewhere) so there you go.There should not have to be a "trick" to inserting igniters/ignitors ,especially for new fliers.



Paul T

[chadrog]

Estes Sonics ,well you need to bend them at 14 degree angles 4.5 times ,then insert while standing on one foot while looking directly into the sun and singing a Gregorian chant ( Elvis songs may be substituted )
Paul T

I'd pay to see this.

[sodmeister]

I'd pay to see this.

Did I mention you need to be naked ?

I go to court Wednesday

Paul T