Newby to Clusters--- Failure using Estes Electron Beam

[BABAR]

First attempt at clustering--- 3 A10-3Ts. Used the standard estes pyrogen ignitors that come with the engines.

Pretty sure I got the wiring right. With these small engines, was easy to wrap three and three with no cross-over (did NOT use a clip whip--- was going to, but as I said, I was able to wrap three together on one end and three on the other end without shorting.)

Good continuity. Held button. No fire. Held longer. No fire. Held longer--- one engine fired. Wasn't pretty.

Does the Electron Beam launch controller carry enough juice to fire three ignitors?

As always, thanks in advance. Please be kind!

Tom

[mwtoelle]

You need a more powerful battery if you want to launch clusters. The stock Electron Beam just does not have enough amperage to reliably ignite a cluster. A strong 12 volt battery should do the trick. The Electron Beam would need some modification to work with a 12V power source.

[BABAR]

Ah soo. Thanks. Here is my wiring set-up, BTW. Should this have worked, or is a clip whip a must have?

[JStarStar]

I think your wiring connection was good, but as mwtowelle points out, Electron Beam ignition sets usually don't have enough juice to fire more than one igniter at once. Clip whips help sometimes to make igniter connections but I don't think this was your problem here.

Usually when you try what happens the igniters heat up not only slowly, but unevenly, with the disastrous results you unhappily found out. When one motor lights the rocket usually doesn't want to hang around to wait to see if the others are going to.

Also as he says, it is possible to mod the Electron Beam to handle 12V, although you need to open the plastic box to install a 12V bulb which I don't think is that easy to do (IIRC it is glued, not screwed, together), then you also have to patch in an additional battery holder or another power source (battery clips or some other device).

I just jumped over to the Estes site and it doesn't look like they currently have any system really capable of consistent cluster ignition. Even their "E Launch Controller" only operates on 4 AA cells which give you only 6 volts. I am not sure if they have any cluster kits in their current lineup.

One option would be to use the Quest Q2G2 igniters which many people swear by, but then you may have the opposite problem: Q2G2's often light on Estes systems when only the safety key is inserted -- the small amount of current carried to light the continuity light is enough to fire the igniter (this can usually be fixed by swapping out the old style light bulb for an LED light bulb which carries far less current).

So if you want to launch clusters reliably you will probably have to do some modifications to your launch system -- either upgrade your Electron Beam to 12V power or use the Quest Q2G2 igniters for clusters (and if you do that you will have to change your light bulb). Either way you will have to do some work on your ignition system.

[mwtoelle]

I normally twist the igniters together. Clip whips have a tendency to short out. The Quest Q2G2 igniters work really for clustering. Careful igniter prep is a must when clustering. It is still tricky to reliably ignite clustered motors.

[[POW]Eagle159]

I has happened to me on my first cluster attempt also.......

Now I use a 24v battery from an electric scooter, MORE than enough! I have been launching 2-3 engine cluster more often now.

Not too hard (knock on wood) when you have a good battery and watch the connections.

[luke strawwalker]

First attempt at clustering--- 3 A10-3Ts. Used the standard estes pyrogen ignitors that come with the engines.

Pretty sure I got the wiring right. With these small engines, was easy to wrap three and three with no cross-over (did NOT use a clip whip--- was going to, but as I said, I was able to wrap three together on one end and three on the other end without shorting.)

Good continuity. Held button. No fire. Held longer. No fire. Held longer--- one engine fired. Wasn't pretty.


Does the Electron Beam launch controller carry enough juice to fire three ignitors?

As always, thanks in advance. Please be kind!

Tom

Short answer... NO.

The AA's cannot deliver enough current to fire three consistently... you might get one or two, but three is just sheer luck... Also the wire is really too thin to carry sufficient current to light three Estes ignitors. Heck, lighting TWO Estes ignitors with an Electron Beam is kinda pushing it... you BETTER have new batteries!!!

If you want to really enjoy reliable clustering, you have a couple choices... 1) you can get "low current" Q2G2 ignitors from Quest... they use only a FRACTION of the current that the Estes ignitors require... so little current in fact that just inserting the safety key on the Estes controller is enough to set them off (because the Estes controller uses a lightbulb that passes too much current through it, firing the ignitors... you can get around this the CHAD way by simply inserting the key at zero, preferably with the launch button held down). 2) the other alternative is to get a better controller... there's a couple ways to do that: A) rebuild your Estes controller into something better or B) build or buy a better controller set up to handle the task...

The Estes controller can be improved the point of being capable of handling pretty much anything LPR/MPR by replacing all the dinky bell wire with lamp cord or extension cord, and by replacing the internal AA batteries by running lamp cord leads out to connect to a 12 volt battery (car jumper packs are ideal for this purpose, but lawnmower batteries, etc. work just fine... they can deliver HUGE amounts of current compared to stupid AA batteries...) While you're in there, ditch the stupid light bulb and replace it, either with a 'drop in' replacement LED flashlight or pinball machine LED bulb, (you can get the pinball bulbs in colors online, or the LED bulbs at most sporting good stores to replace Maglite incandescent bulbs in your flashlight). Or, you can pick up some "LED indicators" from Radio Shack, complete with the drop resister already built in, and install that in the controller and wire it into the circuit correctly... either of those solutions SHOULD reduce the current enough that the rebuilt Estes controller can be used safely with Q2G2 Quest ignitors without any worries (but test first to avoid any surprises!)

Later and good luck! OL JR

[gpoehlein]

What JR said...

A lot of people get voltage and current mixed up. They assume that more volts is better, when it is the current that counts. For example, the Quest controller uses a 9v transistor battery, which has more voltage but a tiny amount of amps - it will barely light a single igniter only a few times before giving up the ghost. Four AA batteries in series is better (6V, but larger batteries means more amperage). Four D cells (like in the new Mighty D controller from BMS) is even better - D cells crank out a lot more amps than AA do. I have an old Estes Big Foot launch pad and controller that has four D cells in its base - that can fire off a cluster with no trouble at all. If you have a four cell E controller that has four AA batteries in it, you could rig it to an external pack of four D cells and it would likely burn off those three igniters just fine.

A lantern battery (also 6V) has even more than a set of D cells. And a 12V car battery (or gel cell deep cycle battery, or a jump pack) has even more.

Just remember that when talking about batteries to launch rockets, bigger is definitely better. As for kusing Q2G2 igniters, they work fantastic for clusters. But you'll either need to use a Quest igniter rigged to a larger external battery or replace the light bulb in your Estes controller with an LED and voltage dropping resistor to limit the current then the key is plugged in.

[luke strawwalker]

Exactly... just to add to what Greg said, think about your car... could you use 8 AA batteries to start your car?? No, of course not... why?? Because they can't deliver enough CURRENT. Remember that WATTS is the measure of power... and WATTS equals VOLTS TIMES AMPS (voltage multiplied by CURRENT). Doubling the voltage doubles the wattage delivered, but doubling the amps also doubles it. Plus, there are some jobs that simply require a combination of the two... since ignitors work by heating up a wire to the ignition point of the pyrogen (or in the old days, by heating up sufficiently to ignite the BP directly) and heating of a wire works via the RESISTANCE of the wire to passing CURRENT, current (amps) is required to heat the wire up sufficiently to the ignition temperature. Increasing the volts from 6 to 12 volts reduces the amount of amps required, but needless to say, the more amps you can deliver to the ignitor the better, since basically in the end, insufficient amperage will cause a failure or slow heating of the wire to the ignition temperature... which is not good. How do we increase the current capacity of our system?? Simple... larger, better conductors.

Voltage is basically the "pressure" pushing the electrons through the wire. Amperage is the VOLUME of electrons flowing through the wire... think of it this way.. which will fill a swimming pool faster-- a half inch garden hose, or a three inch fire hose... both will have the same pressure (off the water main) but needless to say, the MUCH smaller garden hose will only carry a few gallons per minute, where a large fire hose, at the exact same pressure, can carry a couple hundred gallons per minute... Increasing the pressure (voltage) can help the garden hose deliver more capacity in gallons/minute, BUT, pressure has to SQUARE to DOUBLE the output in gallons/minute! (This holds true whether it's a garden hose, a fire hose, or a 36 inch pipeline!) Now, an electrical circuit follows slightly different laws than hydraulics, but the principle is the same... The thing is, which remains true, is that the larger the conductor (wire) the more current it can carry, and the lower the resistance, regardless of the voltage (of course 12 volts is still better than 6 for the previously mentioned reasons). BUT, if you keep the dinky bell wire, it will STILL have limited current carrying capability even with a larger battery, and limit the current delivery capability of your launch controller. That's why replacing the wire is such a good idea... regular 110 volt double-lead lamp cord, which can often be gotten in pretty decent length rolls at a dollar store for nearly nothing, is pretty much all you'll need for most clusters... You really can't go "too big" but you do get to the point where it's pointless... lamp cord can do the job just fine...

In fact, when I reworked my Estes controllers, I installed lamp cord leadouts, then wired them up to some cheap replacement 110 volt cord end plugs... you can male and female replacement cord ends at any lumberyard or hardware store, pretty cheap. I install a female end on the lamp cord about a foot from the controller, and then use another piece of lamp cord about 2-3 feet long, pull the conductors apart from each other, and then solder on microclips from Radio Shack. On the other end of this (I only pull the last foot of the wires apart from each other) I install a male cord plug end. That way, I can use ANY regular extension cord to connect the launch controller leadout to the clips, by plugging it in the middle. Works great!

I install lamp cord leadout about 2-3 feet long through the base of the control, and install a pair of battery charger clamps on the ends of them... you can pick those up at any autoparts store. If you replace the bulb with LED indicators (or any LED bulb), be sure to check the polarity, as they require a specific polarity or they won't light up if the polarity is reversed. That way, I can use my preferred battery power source, a car jumper battery pack, or hook up directly to a car battery (still in the car simply by popping the hood) if necessary.

I've posted pics and descriptions and wiring diagrams on here before on exactly how to modify the Estes controller to suit your needs... I'm sure a search will turn up the relevant threads...

Works great. Hope this helps! OL JR

[Marc_G]

These two threads will be of interest:

When I started clustering, I wanted to use 4 AAs with Quest Q2G2s, using LED for continuity. I did it with radioshack parts at the time but now would recommend the drop-in superbright replacements ("Pinballlife" sells them)
http://www.rocketryforum.com/showthread.php?14646

A year later or so, I wanted to be able to do clusters with Estes ignitors and also handle lighting off copperheads. Here's a thread I did on it, which is what I recommend more generally. This is the controller I use all the time:

http://www.rocketryforum.com/showthread.php?27753

[dave carver]

I use an old FSI controller. 30 feet of wire plus another 6 feet of wire going to a car type battery.

I've never tried the 3 motors in a tube type cluster. Mine have always been the 3 in a row style. I use thicker wire to make a buss bar arrangement by wrapping three leads on one wire and the other 3 on the second wire. I had 1 failure because I didn't wrap the wire tight enough but since no problems.

[Micromeister]

As Greg and JR have mentioned its the amps required more then volts. Because it's easier to find and purchase 12 gel-cell and other batteries with Higher amp ratings we generally just tell folks they need to convert their controllers to 12v systems.
Rule of thumb for most cluster ignition is we must deliver 2amps per igniter to the cluster as quickly as possible. most new to clustering and the average cluster flyer are flying 2-5 motor clusters. So our battery and control wireing needs to be heavy enough to deliver 4 to 10amps as close to instantly as possible.
A very good way to acomplish this is the use of a RELAY ignition system which moves the battery power source from the controller side 30feet away to the Launcher side using cabling as short as 3feet.

Another work around is the new Quest Q2g2 low current igniters but we must test our controllers before hooking up to be sure it will not continuity launch the very low current igniters. More then likely a new LED continuity lamp will be needed.

Most hand held electron beam (estes) controllers, and All Quest pistol grip controllers can very easily be coverted to use a 12volt battery drop cable. the Electron beam if sealed is a bit more of a problem as you'll have to cut it open then solvent weld it back together after changing the blub and soldering on the battery drop leads. It Sounds a lot more daunting then it really is With a little over the shoulder guidance my 10year old daughter converted her sealed seam electon beam controller some years back. I was more concerned while she used an X-acto #24 blade & razor saw then while she soldered and re-sealed the unit with Plastistruct Pro-weld solvent.

If interested you might want to visit www.narhams.org look in the library section under tech-tip #006 Clustering BP motors which will help with a number of ways and methods in increase your cluster launching enjoyment.

[dave carver]

I got another story that pertains to this, kinda. A music group I was in used flash pots for the effect and to get a room smokey so the stage lighting was more visible. Most of the time we used two pots, wired in parallel. We had a big show one night and hooked up 6 pots. When triggered instead of all 6 going off at once they fired off one after another starting with the one closest to the plugin. The 6 burn wires carried too much of the current to light them all at the same time.

[kjohnson]

What's this extra wire? Or is there a shadow?

kj

[BABAR]

What's this extra wire? Or is there a shadow?

kj

No extra wire, that must be a shadow.

Thanks for all the answers from everybody.

I think I am going to go with the Go Box from Pratt Hobbies (39.99 plus shipping). By the time I add up the parts and the time (and my own Murphy's Law factor!) I personally am probably better off with something built by someone who knows what they are doing (as some of you have probably figured out from some of my scratch rocket designs!)

Plus I won't need to buy (or charge a battery)--- the Go Box comes with a cigarette lighter adapter and 30 feet of cord, which is easily within range of where I can park my car for most of my launches. Not sure how much clustering I will do, this was mainly to get my 3 Nose Cones and a Fin design up into the air.

Tom

[JStarStar]

That sounds like it should work well.

You may at some point want to pick up one of those little battery booster units (I think they usually start at $25 or so), which usually have a cig lighter outlet, to give you totally portable power and not necessarily tie you to the car. Although if you can use a car at your main launch field you are probably OK anyway.

[shreadvector]

Cigarrette lighter plugs are fine until you blow the fuse in the car.

[luke strawwalker]

You can always make a cig plug adapter... make a run to the local auto parts store... they have replacement cig lighter sockets (or "multipliers" or whatever that pair a cig plug with a couple leadouts with dual cig lighter "sockets" hanging from the leadout wires-- whichever works better for you) and get some HD speaker wire (lamp cord). You'll also need a pair of battery charger clamps, which they'll have as well. Put your cig lighter female socket on the end of some lamp cord and then pull the two conductors apart for about a foot and then attach a battery charger clamp to the end of each one... Presto, instant hookup to your car battery with the clamps and then plug the thing in to the cig lighter socket.

Shread's right about potentially blowing the fuse in the car... better to draw straight from the battery and not have to worry about it.

Later! OL JR

[LW Bercini]

It's been eons since I've fired a cluster, and Centuri Sur-shot wicks and flash bulbs are not as common as they once were. Assuming the launch system and battery are sufficient (per discussions above), are Estes ignitors a reliable choice for BP motor clusters, or does the Collective recommend an alternative?

[shreadvector]

Estes igniters are fine and Quest igniters are fine BUT you must meet these requirements:

You need a power source, launch control (and wires) and igniters that will ignite ALL of the igniters in the cluster THE INSTANT you hit the launch button.

If you have to wait for any lenght of time for the igniters to "heat up" your system is dangerous.

It's been eons since I've fired a cluster, and Centuri Sur-shot wicks and flash bulbs are not as common as they once were. Assuming the launch system and battery are sufficient (per discussions above), are Estes ignitors a reliable choice for BP motor clusters, or does the Collective recommend an alternative?

[luke strawwalker]

It's been eons since I've fired a cluster, and Centuri Sur-shot wicks and flash bulbs are not as common as they once were. Assuming the launch system and battery are sufficient (per discussions above), are Estes ignitors a reliable choice for BP motor clusters, or does the Collective recommend an alternative?

Estes ignitors can and DO work, and certainly they're better than the 60's alternative of coiled or folded bare nichromc wire ignitors... BUT, realize that Estes ignitors are basically "70's technology" and have been superseded by easier to use, more reliable, and often better performing options.

The Quest Q2G2's are the current state of the art when it comes to clustering LPR motors, IMHO. The low firing current requirements greatly enhance reliability of all motors lighting, even with marginal launch controller power delivery capability. The twin-lead "shooter's wire" type leadous make wiring the ignitors into a cluster without the clip whips particularly easy and reliable, and should greatly reduce the probability of shorts.

It's sorta like the difference between points and condensor distributor on your car and electronic ignition... one will do the job, sure, within limits, but the electronic ignition is MUCH more reliable and requires less maintenance...

Later! OL JR

[1tree]

One note to switching to Quest igniters. Don't check continuity until you are ready to launch. It might not launch with three, but it will ignite a single one every time.

There is some warning in the package, but it is couched in electrical terms. As if I had a meter in the field to check the current. Then again many people wouldn't know how anyway.

[LW Bercini]

The Quest Q2G2's are the current state of the art when it comes to clustering LPR motors, IMHO.

Later! OL JR

Great. Thanks. That was the kind of answer I was looking for.

[luke strawwalker]

Great. Thanks. That was the kind of answer I was looking for.

You're welcome...

Interesting that you mention flashbulbs and the Centuri Sure-Shot stuff... I read about those back in 'the old days' but never tried it... Guess we're showing our age... LOL

Later and good luck! OL JR

[JStarStar]

The Centuri Sure-Shot igniters were normal nichrome wire attached by a tape disc to a single short piece (about 1") of Jetex wick inserted straight up the motor nozzle to contact the propellant.

Press button, nichrome gets hot, Jetex wick fires, engine ignites. Served the same purpose as the pyrogen coating on the Estes ignitors.

Jetex wick of course is the legendary stuff that disappeared in the late 1970s.

Early editions of the Handbook made extensive reference to Jetex wick as igniter material, but I don't recall ever seeing it in any hobby shops even in the 1960s.

In the olden days of course we often used plain nichrome wire for igniters. If you used a car battery or a brand new lantern battery, they would fire instantly. If your battery had a few launches on it, you had to hold the button down a few seconds to get fire (then after your battery had a few MORE launches on it, it wouldn't do it at all).

A very very bad thing for clusters.

[shreadvector]

Sure Shot wick wasa *NOT* Jetex wick. Jetex wick was much thinner and could be snuffed out, while Sure Shot wick was much thicker and just a bit thinner than the FSI wick without the outer wire wrap. It was a Thermite wick from what I recall.

The Centuri Sure-Shot igniters were normal nichrome wire attached by a tape disc to a single short piece (about 1") of Jetex wick inserted straight up the motor nozzle to contact the propellant.

Press button, nichrome gets hot, Jetex wick fires, engine ignites. Served the same purpose as the pyrogen coating on the Estes ignitors.

Jetex wick of course is the legendary stuff that disappeared in the late 1970s.

[LW Bercini]

. Guess we're showing our age... LOL

I prefer to think of it as showing our experience.

[luke strawwalker]

I prefer to think of it as showing our experience.

Ya, that's it...

"My munificence is boundless..." (Hugo Drax) LOL

Later! OL JR