Level Three Build...

[mannyskid]

Well, now that I have proven this airframe in flight, I will document the build here. As many of you may know, I built "Carbon Nightmare Mk.I" last year and it was flown at LDRS and MWP. In the MWP flight, the booster was lost. In December, I decided to do a re-build of this rocket in order to attempt a level three certification after my eighteenth birthday at AIRfest in September. For the cert flight, I will use an original AMW M-2200 skidmark. Okay, so let's get started. So I started with a 60" carbon tube and cut it to size in order to have the ease of accesibility of the motor retainage plate.

[mannyskid]

Now that the insides of the booster were done, now onto the fins. After some discusion with my TAPs, it was decided that my original fin shape was too small, so I made them much larger to accomodate the LONG airframe. The next couple of pictures show me cutting out the 1/8" thick G-10 fins.

[mannyskid]

After the fins were cut out, I laminated them with two layers of carbon on each side. The fins were then beveled by Justin Farand.

[mannyskid]

Then I attatched them and did three layers of carbon Tip-to-Tip. I won't bore you with the details of how I do this, so here are some pictures.

[mannyskid]

After a LOT of sanding and filling, I got this. Yeah it isn't that pretty, and yeah it's realy heavy, but hey, it gets the job done.

[mannyskid]

So came along Thunderstruck 3. After much BSing out at our little forum and on here, I entered it in the mach madness contest. Darin Raymond stepped up to the plate to mix me up a 6500Ns M-2580 Brass Blue. The rocket flew under his name. All in all, the rocket only flew to 14,000' and a measly top speed of only mach 1.4. A far cry from the simmed mach 2.5 with a loki M-2550. I hope to fly this rocket again soon, and then for the real flight at AIRfest. In-flight picture courtesy of David Reese.


Manny

[DRAGON64]

Nice build, beautiful rocket. I do love the Carbon birds. I have been eye-balling the Mongoose75 for some time now... Thanks for sharing!

[troj]

So came along Thunderstruck 3. After much BSing out at our little forum and on here, I entered it in the mach madness contest. Darin Raymond stepped up to the plate to mix me up a 6500Ns M-2580 Brass Blue. The rocket flew under his name. All in all, the rocket only flew to 14,000' and a measly top speed of only mach 1.4. A far cry from the simmed mach 2.5 with a loki M-2550. I hope to fly this rocket again soon, and then for the real flight at AIRfest. In-flight picture courtesy of David Reese.

So, let me get this straight...

1) You're not yet 18, and therefore not certified at any level?
2) You flew a rocket at a Tripoli Research launch?
3) You were out at the High Power pads at a Tripoli Research launch?

Tripoli Research Rules

7.2.1.2. Exception: Children younger than 18 years of age may conduct flights from the Model Rocket Launch Area under the direction of an adult Tripoli Member. These individuals are not allowed in the Research / High Power Launch Areas except for recovery of rockets launched from the Model Rocket Launch Area and only then if the Research / High Power Launch Area is open and no rockets are being launched from there.

Tripoli Research FAQ

14. My buddy is not a member of Tripoli but wants to fly his rocket at
a TRL. Can I ‘sponsor’ his flight so his rocket can fly?
No, a flier has to be a Tripoli member, in good standing 18 years of age or older.

-Kevin

[patelldp]

So, let me get this straight...

1) You're not yet 18, and therefore not certified at any level?
2) You flew a rocket at a Tripoli Research launch?
3) You were out at the High Power pads at a Tripoli Research launch?

Tripoli Research Rules



Tripoli Research FAQ



-Kevin

Pretty sure that Thunderstruck was independent insurance.

[troj]

Pretty sure that Thunderstruck was independent insurance.

If that's the case, then the website has incorrect info.

-Kevin

[patelldp]

If that's the case, then the website has incorrect info.

-Kevin

http://rocketryforum.com/showpost.ph...&postcount=169

[chadrog]

If that's the case, then the website has incorrect info.

-Kevin

I think that was finalized literally days before the launch. Does that make it OK to not follow the rules of the chartering organization? Manny, isn't it kinda pointless to start following the rules now?

[blackjack2564]

They became independent just a day or two before the launch.

All is well ...Manny was in good hands the entire time.


After all , any kid that let's you "borrow" his girlfriend for the night, if you help him with rockets, is Ok in my book! Lol!

[patelldp]

I think that was finalized literally days before the launch. Does that make it OK to not follow the rules of the chartering organization? Manny, isn't it kinda pointless to start following the rules now?

Several people have done their L1-L3 certs in one day or weekend following turning 18. Several of those people have also flown large motors their entire life leading up to their 18th birthday (see Art Hoag, David Harris) It's not unheard of.

I do believe that Manny follows the rules, and I have never met him. Let the young whipper snappers enjoy themselves, especially if they're having fun and are within the rules. Trust me, I was one of them not too long ago.

[troj]

http://rocketryforum.com/showpost.ph...&postcount=169

That's a post here, which is all well and good, but they need to update the club website, which is where I went for the club's rules.

Research launch days follow the Tripoli Research safety code. To fly high power rockets (H motors and above) on research days, you must be a member of the Tripoli Rocketry Association and certified to the appropriate power level. In addition, research motors may only be flown by those certified to TRA Level 2 or higher.

-Kevin

[chadrog]

Several people have done their L1-L3 certs in one day or weekend following turning 18. Several of those people have also flown large motors their entire life leading up to their 18th birthday (see Art Hoag, David Harris) It's not unheard of.

I do believe that Manny follows the rules, and I have never met him. Let the young whipper snappers enjoy themselves, especially if they're having fun and are within the rules. Trust me, I was one of them not too long ago.

Then shouldn't we just let all the young "whipper snappers" have fun? Let's see where that gets us.

[troj]

Then shouldn't we just let all the young "whipper snappers" have fun? Let's see where that gets us.

There are some who are indeed qualified to do 1/2/3 the same day. They're very much the exception, and I cannot comment on Manny's qualifications or experience.

A TAP or NAR L3CC would be best to spend time talking to people who do know Manny, and who they trust, before making the judgement.

My only question in the thread was in relation to Tripoli rules, as based on the Tripoli Indiana website, it was a Tripoli Research launch. However, based on the link Dan posted, it would appear otherwise. Hopefully the club will update the website (and TRA HQ) to reflect the change to Independent, and what the rules are for participation at their launches.

-Kevin

[mannyskid]

The whole reason that Indiana Rocketry switched to independent insurance is so that "kids" like me could go out to the pads. Higher up members in IR didn't want to stray kids from this awesome hobby due to some recent rule changes. As I said earlier, I DID NOT FLY THIS ROCKET. Darin Raymond, the guy who made the motor, who is a level three flier flew this rocket for me. I can assure you that I am within the rules. The cert flight won't be until AIRfest which at that time I WILL be eighteen. I will go for all three levels in one weekend. Thanks to my awesome TAPs, Crazy Jim and David Reese.

Manny

[rocdoc]

A TAP or NAR L3CC would be best to spend time talking to people who do know Manny, and who they trust, before making the judgement.

-Kevin

Has to be a TAP. NAR does not allow construction of an L3 rocket to begin before the flier is L2 certified.

As for the Tripoli vs Independent insurance thing, this is a real gray area for this launch. If the flight is being conducted in accordance with TRL (Tripoli Research Launch) rules, then the OP was indeed not following the rules. The thought of going out to get independent insurance and then making up the rules as we go scares the heck out of me. One problem at one launch could lead to a chain of unintended consequences for those who are still working hard to follow the rules.

In regards to going for L1-L3 in one day, that one's been beaten a fair bit here and elsewhere. I honestly wish TRA would change their rules to be more in line with the NAR rules in regards to this. Has it been done safely? Yes. Should it be done? IMO, no.

[troj]

As for the Tripoli vs Independent insurance thing, this is a real gray area for this launch. If the flight is being conducted in accordance with TRL (Tripoli Research Launch) rules, then the OP was indeed not following the rules. The thought of going out to get independent insurance and then making up the rules as we go scares the heck out of me. One problem at one launch could lead to a chain of unintended consequences for those who are still working hard to follow the rules.

Without knowing what their policy states, and what rules they gave to the insurance company when getting the policy, I can't determine whether or not the rules were broken.

In regards to going for L1-L3 in one day, that one's been beaten a fair bit here and elsewhere. I honestly wish TRA would change their rules to be more in line with the NAR rules in regards to this. Has it been done safely? Yes. Should it be done? IMO, no.

I disagree. I think it should be an uphill battle, and the TAPs should have to justify allowing it, but I think there are cases where it's reasonable.

-Kevin

[bandman444]

Boom. There goes a nice rocket thread...

Great work Manny. I turned 18 today, L2 by June, L3 by end of summer.

This is nearly identical to the rocket my school is building.

How heavy is she after 3 layers of TTT? O.o

Hopefully we will meet up sometime in the next year or two.

[chadrog]

The whole reason that Indiana Rocketry switched to independent insurance is so that "kids" like me could go out to the pads. Higher up members in IR didn't want to stray kids from this awesome hobby due to some recent rule changes. As I said earlier, I DID NOT FLY THIS ROCKET. Darin Raymond, the guy who made the motor, who is a level three flier flew this rocket for me. I can assure you that I am within the rules. The cert flight won't be until AIRfest which at that time I WILL be eighteen. I will go for all three levels in one weekend. Thanks to my awesome TAPs, Crazy Jim and David Reese.

Manny

Funny, I seem to remember a conversation regarding you gluing up an M motor in a hotel bathtub last fall... Regardless is my opinion, it falls on the ones who allow you to do it. I just hope any repercussions never affect those that do abide.

[mannyskid]

Boom. There goes a nice rocket thread...

That sums it up. I assure all of you, I always stay within the rules, I always fly under a responsible L3 flier. Now, I'm going for my level 3 in September. Can I please have a MOD delete this thread, its really not benefiting anyone.

[butalane]

Funny, I seem to remember a conversation regarding you gluing up an M motor in a hotel bathtub last fall... Regardless is my opinion, it falls on the ones who allow you to do it. I just hope any repercussions never affect those that do abide.

I'm unsure of the point of your post. Case bonding propellant grains into liner is an oft overlooked safety measure that can mitigate the risk of pressure pulsing rocket motors due to large particle expulsion. Doing so in a non sparking enviroment with a water suppression system seems like a wise safety precaution.

The discouragment of underage participents has always bothered me, especially when that person has jumped through the necessary regulatory hoops. I would think that this successful flight would lend some credibility to Manny's ability not bring on the rash of naysayers hell-bent on putting down young people who threaten to fly as big or bigger rockets than they do.

Congrats on a cool flight.

[New Ocean]

Love the rocket! Mean looking CF build, and I think the green pattern on the fin area actually looks very cool.

[eggplant]

I am not trying to be rude or to start any new arguments, but if you scare kids like Manny away from this hobby, who will put new rocket videos up on youtube 35 years from now for you to watch in the retirement home?

(Don't hate me, I just had to! )

[mannyskid]

Well thank you! I actually painted along the bevels and Fillet area because I put a thin layer of proline 4500 high-temp glue as to protect the carbon lay-ups as it gets going really fast. I'm glad some of you guys think it looks good.

[daveyfire]

That's a post here, which is all well and good, but they need to update the club website, which is where I went for the club's rules.

Sorry, I was too busy getting the insurance certificate for the club to worry about updating our website.

Sue me.

Actually, don't. I've had enough paperwork for a while.

Feh.

[DAllen]

That sums it up. I assure all of you, I always stay within the rules, I always fly under a responsible L3 flier. Now, I'm going for my level 3 in September. Can I please have a MOD delete this thread, its really not benefiting anyone.

Actually it is. I think it is a good for people to keep the rules in mind and we (as a rocket community) ought to feel comfortable enough with each other to call us out if we are busting the rules. Frankly, I want people to point out when I, especially as a prefect, am missing something in the rules. It's a good thing every once in a while to go through an exercise like this to refresh every one's memory. It's just a little uncomfortable for you perhaps.

You're not yet 18 so I suspect you don't remember the wonderful fight we had with the BATFE for 10 years. Many folk in rocketry realised just how close we were then and still are today in loosing the hobby as a whole all across our litigious land. You would do well to learn from this and make sure you are following your clubs insurance rules precisely especially since you are a minor. Also since you belong to an indy club your club has far more to loose should someone do something stupid at an event like Thunderstruck. This is why I stopped exploring the possibility of making my club independent. At least with Tripoli I have far more resources to tap into should we get into trouble. Safety in numbers.



Congrats on the flight. I wish more kids were interested in making things in real life rather than in something like Minecraft.

-Dave

[troj]

Sue me.

No, I wouldn't inflict a lawyer on you.

Actually, don't. I've had enough paperwork for a while.

Insurance is less fun than a root canal.

-Kevin