Hybrid Motor Fuels

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Hello Everyone,

I know this is my first post in this name here however I have had my eye in this forum for many years. I would post this in the EX forum however not US Citizen so I will be very basic with this.

For hybrid oxidisers I know its not illegal (In Australia at least) to have H2O2 as a oxidiser. Personally I like using this over N2O as a oxidiser. I have a strong supply of H2O2 90% and the cost is about the same. Obviously this is not used as a mono prop (Hence Hybrid) mixed with a wax/glue grain. Again to refrain from talking about EX my question is below.

Would it be possible for TRA or NAR in either a forum like TMT to be able to certify a H2O2 oxidiser hybrid motor? Also for the Hybrids available currently I wonder why they chose N2O over H2O2. Availability is a plus however my belief is H2O2 is better fuel.

Let me know what you all think. Again if this post is out of bounds I am sorry.
 
Would it be possible for TRA or NAR in either a forum like TMT to be able to certify a H2O2 oxidiser hybrid motor?
Not without changing NFPA 1125 which specifies only nitrous oxide.

Also for the Hybrids available currently I wonder why they chose N2O over H2O2. Availability is a plus however my belief is H2O2 is better fuel.

Safety when handling it is another plus. Hydrogen peroxide that you buy in a store will clean your shoes. Concentrated hydrogen peroxide will light your shoes on fire:

[YOUTUBE]i06SnRCQN6U[/YOUTUBE]
 
Agreed somewhat,

NFPA 1125 does not apply here in Australia. Is TRA and NAR restricted to just USA Law as Tripoli is international? I also think this needs to be reviewed for USA.

99% will catch your shoes on fire yes however pooring liquid NO2 on your shoes is not good either. Drinking both also is not good. I think all here needs to be handled with common sense just like when you are carying a jerry can of fuel. Treat it with respect and it will treat you well.

To make it clear I was never talking about the "in store purchases" I have only ever dealt with 80% plus concentrations and not made by myself but a commercial outlet for propulsion.

This may seem bias however I have seen a higher percentage of Nitrus accidents than peroxide. As a fuel for rockets I think its better and safer (with the obvious handeling restrictions). Critical mass, Blow back, Decompression etc... Peroxide as a fuel for rockets as a bi-prop IMO is better.

ASLI Pathfinder 1B is a peroxide beast and I would love to launch it in the USA as you have better waivers and sites there.

I am happy to discuss this unless there is something I have missed out on and happy to listen.

Thanks
 
Hello Everyone,

I know this is my first post in this name here however I have had my eye in this forum for many years. I would post this in the EX forum however not US Citizen so I will be very basic with this.

For hybrid oxidisers I know its not illegal (In Australia at least) to have H2O2 as a oxidiser. Personally I like using this over N2O as a oxidiser. I have a strong supply of H2O2 90% and the cost is about the same. Obviously this is not used as a mono prop (Hence Hybrid) mixed with a wax/glue grain. Again to refrain from talking about EX my question is below.

Would it be possible for TRA or NAR in either a forum like TMT to be able to certify a H2O2 oxidiser hybrid motor? Also for the Hybrids available currently I wonder why they chose N2O over H2O2. Availability is a plus however my belief is H2O2 is better fuel.

Let me know what you all think. Again if this post is out of bounds I am sorry.
The only hybrid oxidizer allowed by NAR and TRA is nitrous oxide. There is no law prohibiting an amateur rocketeer from using H2O2 as an oxidizer but unless you can somehow acquire surplus hi-test peroxide, >90%, you will not find any commercial manufacturer that will sell anything stronger than 50% to a non-government propulsion user. I know because our company does propulsion research and FMC came to our facility and would only provide 50% peroxide. They did the same thing to Armadilllo Aerospace, and everyother company I am aware of. And if it were commercially available at substantially higher than the ~$1.50/pound commercial wholesale price.

Nitrous oxide is only reactive under normal contitions when heated to over ~350C where it starts to thermally decompose. There are a few catalysts that can cause a lower temperature but those catalysts are quite expensive. Peroxide on the other hand, is highly reactive, and sometomes explosive, even at room temperature. It will even decompose in storage, and if the container is not vented, the container will eventually explode. Bill's video show some of the reactivity, but an early Armadillo Aerospace video on the reactivity of peroxide with common materials is a classic. The leather shoes that continue to reiginte several times after the flames are extinguished is indicative of how difficult peroxide can be to handle.

Nitrous oxide is a liquified gas under its own vapor pressure. Peroxide has a vapor pressure lower than water so it needs to be pressurized either by a puimp or compressed gas both of which add complexity to an rocket motor when compared to nitrous.

The gold standard oxidizer for a professional hybrid is actually liquid oxygen which is 100% oxygen. 100% peroxide will provide 47% oxygen by weight, 90% peroxide delivers 42% oxygen and 80% delivers only 38% oxygen whereas while nitrous will supply always 36% oxygen by weigh. The 50% peroxide that is relatively easy to obtain delivers only 24% oxygen, so it is much less efficient that nitrous.

To be useful in a rocket motor, you need a catalyst to crack the liquid peroxide so it liberates the oxygen as a gsa. The catalyst bed and the gas pressurization system add weight to the rocket. The pressurization and catalyst systems are not needed with nitrous as it enters the motor as a gas. In practice with small amateur rocket motors no performance gain would be expected using peroxide after doing a complete system analysis.

There is no extrodinary hazards handiing nitrous in the field. A spill will not starts a fire or explosion. A peroxide spill will start a fire in a launch field most of the time, and possibly an explosion if it contacts a catalytic material or something hot.

I do not envision any circumstance where NAR or TRA would certify a peroxide hybrids simply due to the high probability of fire or explosion during the handling and use of the peroxide.

Bob
 
Hello Bob,

Fair enough.

So you know we have a supplier who gives me 90% at $17 ($20USD) a litre while here nitrus oxide is about $17 as well. They ship worldwide however its made in Australia and are reputable.

Here you dont need to be government to purchase in the place I live. International shipping I am unsure of licence wise.

LOX is very dangerous and not always the best when you look at the needed ground support systems needed to support this.

We compress it with gas. The catalyst weighs less than 30 grams. The preformance is over 2x NOX and more than LOX in weight versus lift.

I am not talking about having a certified motor however I would love to launch the pathfinder at BALLS as it is expected 77km's. The founder of ASLI also would love this however we limited to NOX in the USA.

Peroxide rockets are very complex rockets. Ours are even more complex.

asli2010.blogspot.com if you want to have a look. That sites about a year out of date but enoughs there.

Thanks for your input bob.
 
an early Armadillo Aerospace video on the reactivity of peroxide with common materials is a classic.
Bob


I searched for the video but couldn't find it. The best I could come up with is the one I posted and a bunch of them about taking the stink out of your shoes.
 
Hello Bob,

Fair enough.

So you know we have a supplier who gives me 90% at $17 ($20USD) a litre while here nitrus oxide is about $17 as well. They ship worldwide however its made in Australia and are reputable.

Here you dont need to be government to purchase in the place I live. International shipping I am unsure of licence wise.

LOX is very dangerous and not always the best when you look at the needed ground support systems needed to support this.

We compress it with gas. The catalyst weighs less than 30 grams. The preformance is over 2x NOX and more than LOX in weight versus lift.

I am not talking about having a certified motor however I would love to launch the pathfinder at BALLS as it is expected 77km's. The founder of ASLI also would love this however we limited to NOX in the USA.

Peroxide rockets are very complex rockets. Ours are even more complex.

asli2010.blogspot.com if you want to have a look. That sites about a year out of date but enoughs there.

Thanks for your input bob.
I've worked professionally in propulsion for 4 decades so I understand how rocket motors work.

You're conducting amateur rocketry which a bit different than either hobby rocketry with certified motors or EX. In this forum we can discuss the generalites of any type of rocket propulsion but not the enabling details or formulas of propellants in detail for making your own motors.

It great you have a local peroxide supplier, however it is quite dangerous stuff. If your supplier is exporting peroxide around the world, they're either shipping large quantities at moderate cost, or very expensively in small quantities, by ship, because it is forbidden to ship by air. (I'm also a certified hazmat shipper.) There's aren't any other internationally legal transportation options.

If you have access to the Journal of Rocket circa 1950 therr is an excellent paper on a 1 pound H2O2 monopropellant rocket with CO2 cylinder pressurization.

Catalysist can be really cheap or really expensive depending if it a one shot application or need repetative starts.

I don't believe your performance numbers. It strictly a matter of oxygen density. LOX should outperform both N2O and H2O2 by a wide margin. If it doesn't there's a motor design issue somewhere. 30 gm of 1 shot catalyst can be less than $1, or 30 g of space rated thruster catalyst can be $1000.

The best hyrid fuel is opacified wax since no chemical bond breakage is required to liquify/gassify.

Performance = complexity.

Solids < Hybrids < Liquids.

Bob
 
Hello Bob,

While I have not had 40 years experience I have had commercial industry experience. I will add you know your stuff and do respect your opinion very much.

I will give you a example of complexities with LOX. Look up the AusRock2 Rocket made by ASRI. We believe the issues they faced and costs/complexities to overcome them add significant cost to the launch. Within the ASLI model (Thats us) we aim to achieve a performance versus cost model to achieve a goal within a set price range. Its my belief that this can only be done with H2O2 rather than LOX. NOX develops scalability issues along with having to develop a new rocket nearly all the time. With the injector we use scalability is quite in reach.

Again Peroxide is dangerous so is LOX and NOX however we are dealing with commercial grades of rocket fuels. This is Research Rocketry using over 50kg's of fuel (Pathfinder). Common sense and a reality of what you are doing must be at hand.

As for the Peroxide fuel I wont go into this however it is a "wax type" grain.

I agree with you in "pure performance terms" that LOX is better. But look at what systems you need to support them and the added weight and density inside the rocket. The only companies that have used LOX well are known for very expensive rockets. When looking at a fuel for pure propulsion services you are correct. Just hope your valves dont freeze up causing CATO ;).

I dont want to get into a full blown LOX peroxide arguement I am happy to have people disagree and show them with results what we can achieve. I will add that our strengths are on NOX and Peroxide not LOX however in the hands of someone else with the same budget not saying they couldnt do better but with our skills our rockets just make common sense.
 
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Hi hybridhighflyer

You've do some interesting projects, but they are considered amateur rocketry in the US. This forum is dedicated to hobby rocketry and activities espoused by NAR and TRA. You would be better served by contacting the Reaction Research Society which is one of the premier amateur rocketry groups in the US.

Bob
 
Safety when handling it is another plus. Hydrogen peroxide that you buy in a store will clean your shoes. Concentrated hydrogen peroxide will light your shoes on fire:

Bill. This is a great video that clearly demonstrates the dangers of handling this stuff.
Re the sugar reaction. Most people would just say "oh nothing happened" but come back in a couple of minutes and the place is on fire. Guess you need to be super careful of ANY spills.

Not the oxidiser of choice for me, but thanks for sharing.

A
 
>> Would it be possible for TRA or NAR in either a forum like TMT

Why bother??

TMT certification is only necessary if you plan to setup manfuacturing and sell motors to other NAR or TRA members. TMT certification is not needed to fly in US.

If you talk to Balls organizers they might (or might not) grant an exception to fly at their event. But again why bother? You can fly at Blockrock without NAR, TRA, or TMT. With a 75km capable rocket, you probably want to fly under your own licenses anyway IMO.
 
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