Jeff Bezos claims to have found Apollo 11 booster motors

[StefanJ]

Cool:

"I’m excited to report that, using state-of-the-art deep sea sonar, the team has found the Apollo 11 engines lying 14,000 feet below the surface, and we’re making plans to attempt to raise one or more of them from the ocean floor. We don’t know yet what condition these engines might be in—they hit the ocean at high velocity and have been in salt water for more than 40 years. On the other hand, they’re made of tough stuff, so we’ll see."

http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/...s-lost-at-sea/

[Bazookadale]

"The post does not offer details on how Bezos’s team identified the engines as belonging to Apollo 11."

[GregGleason]

Interesting.

I wonder what the attitude of the S-IC was as it hit the ocean? If it was "nose" first, they may be in pretty good shape since the vector force on the engines would have been against the thrust structure. If the engine bells were the first to hit, then it would likely be a mess. I wonder if any aero studies were done on the attitude of the booster as it struck the ocean? Perhaps Boeing did or someone at MSFC.

Greg

[GregGleason]

"The post does not offer details on how Bezos’s team identified the engines as belonging to Apollo 11."

I agree that this would be hard to know, unless they had the tracking data from the 13 flights of the S-IC boosters (Apollo 4, 6, 8-17 and Skylab) and could plot a CEP. Otherwise they are just "hoping".

The serial numbers of the F-1 engines flown are known, so whichever flight it belongs to and where it was stationed could be verified. That is "if" the ID plate survived.

Greg

[nealkas]

I agree that this would be hard to know, unless they had the tracking data from the 13 flights of the S-IC boosters (Apollo 4, 6, 8-17 and Skylab) and could plot a CEP. Otherwise they are just "hoping".

The serial numbers of the F-1 engines flown are known, so whichever flight it belongs to and where it was stationed could be verified. That is "if" the ID plate survived.

Greg

Well, it innit like Bezos lacks for the capital or computing resources to review all the data.

Figure there is also ancillary data from surface ships and aircraft that can also be correlated.

Of course, I don't know any more than any one else.

I mean, If I did I'd have sold internal organs to buy Amazon @ $1.50 around 1997-99 and be flying in space for real instead of building cardboard rockets. $1.50 a share....I'm not bitter.

[dlazarus6660]

Interesting.

I wonder what the attitude of the S-IC was as it hit the ocean?

Greg

Sea level!

Sorry Greg, I couldn't resist!

According to the article, it reached an altitude of 38 miles before tumbling back to earth.

[GregGleason]

Sea level!

Sorry Greg, I couldn't resist!

According to the article, it reached an altitude of 38 miles before tumbling back to earth.

[Rim.Shot][/Rim.Shot]

[Lounge.Guy.Voice]

Thank ya very much. I'll be here all week and don't forget to tip your waiter!

[/Lounge.Guy.Voice]

C'mon! You could of said that when it hit sea level it had a "bad" attitude.



Greg

[JStarStar]

Offhandedly I would guess the S-1C might drop bells-first, since the engines are pretty machinery-heavy with a bunch of turbines, pumps, etc etc down in that area, while the big tanks higher up on the stage would be mostly empty.

But either way after 40 years in salt water, can't imagine there's too much left.

[bobkrech]

I agree that this would be hard to know, unless they had the tracking data from the 13 flights of the S-IC boosters (Apollo 4, 6, 8-17 and Skylab) and could plot a CEP. Otherwise they are just "hoping".

The serial numbers of the F-1 engines flown are known, so whichever flight it belongs to and where it was stationed could be verified. That is "if" the ID plate survived.

Greg

The coordinates of all the Saturn V S-IC booster impacts are well known.





We know what the Apollo 11 boooster looked like after separation because it was caught on film by NASA tracking cameras. You can be sure it doesn't look like that now since the booster impacted the ocean between 650 to 700 fps if it streamlined in, or half that if it stabalized on the side.




Interesting facts:

Stages to Saturn: A Technological History of the Apollo/Saturn Launch Vehicles, NASA SP-4206

Saturn IC C-5A

F-1

F-1

Bob

[Blakkzakk]

But either way after 40 years in salt water, can't imagine there's too much left.

Liberty Bell 7 wasn't in that bad of shape after 38 years under the ocean. Of course, it had a much softer landing.

[stantonjtroy]

Weight won't matter in freefall, aerodynamic drag will most heavily effect it.

[Bazookadale]

Weight won't matter in freefall, aerodynamic drag will most heavily effect it.

But CG/CP will matter and with the engines being heavier than the empty tanks the CG should be closer to the rear.

[New Ocean]

Liberty Bell 7 wasn't in that bad of shape after 38 years under the ocean. Of course, it had a much softer landing.

And it was mostly titanium, no? Certain metals should do fine even after a century in cold water.

[Zeus-cat]

I figured it out and each F-1 comes in at an AD motor (using the standard A, B, C, etc.). The whole first stage is therefore an AF rocket. Of course, you couldn't cert at L3 with this as the booster would not be flyable again.

[skyspike1]

With the design of the airframe engineered for vertical thrust only, who's to say booster didn't break up before it even hit the ocean surface?

[jd2cylman]

I don't get how NASA can claim the booster is still their property. It's not as if NASA had any plans to retrieve it. Doesn't it fall into the maritime salvage law area? Just asking, don't really know myself.

Adrian

[troj]

I don't get how NASA can claim the booster is still their property. It's not as if NASA had any plans to retrieve it. Doesn't it fall into the maritime salvage law area? Just asking, don't really know myself.

Likely has to do with salvage laws.

NASA may relinquish ownership, if it's given to a museum -- when Discovery and the Kansas Cosmosphere recovered Liberty Bell 7, NASA signed over ownership to the Cosmosphere, making it the only flown craft not owned by the US Gov't. This likely has to do with the Cosmosphere's proven record in restoration and display of space artifacts.

-Kevin

[JStarStar]

Whether the S-1C hit the water head-on at a higher speed, or broadside at 200-some mph, you gotta figure the big empty tanks collapsed at impact (if not before).

[NJRick]

skyspike..I think you may be right...I read somewhere that the S1c stage broke up at @25-30,000 feet...well before it hit the water.

With the design of the airframe engineered for vertical thrust only, who's to say booster didn't break up before it even hit the ocean surface?

[sooner.boomer]

I wonder what the attitude of the S-IC was as it hit the ocean?

From Alan Lawrie's excellent book "Saturn V, the Complete Manufacturing and Test Records", pg. 37, "The first stage seperates from the second stage at an altitude of about 205,000 feet. It then ascends to a peak altitude near 366,000 feet before beginning its descent. While falling, the stage assumes a semi-stable engines down position and impacts into the Atlantic Ocean at aproximately 350 miles downrange of Cape Kennedy."

Additionally, from pg. 172 the serial numbers for the Apollo 11 F1 engines on stage S-IC-6 were:
Position 101: F-6043
Position 102: F-6046
Position 103: F-6051
Position 104: F-6054
Position 105: F-6044

[bobkrech]

From Alan Lawrie's excellent book "Saturn V, the Complete Manufacturing and Test Records", pg. 37, "The first stage seperates from the second stage at an altitude of about 205,000 feet. It then ascends to a peak altitude near 366,000 feet before beginning its descent. While falling, the stage assumes a semi-stable engines down position and impacts into the Atlantic Ocean at aproximately 350 miles downrange of Cape Kennedy."

Additionally, from pg. 172 the serial numbers for the Apollo 11 F1 engines on stage S-IC-6 were:
Position 101: F-6043
Position 102: F-6046
Position 103: F-6051
Position 104: F-6054
Position 105: F-6044

The text about the first stage in the book originally came from the NASA's Saturn V Press Kit. The text is found on page 19 of the first stage fact sheet.

The S-IC burned out at ~40 miles and apogeed at ~60 miles. At the atmosphere at those altitudes is not dense enough to provide significant drag forces on an object traveling at less than Mach 10 so once it achieves apogee, the stage would backslide down. The unanswered question is when the stage reaches the lower atmosphere, do the fins cause the stage to flip and impact nose first, or does the CG dominate and the impact occurs motors first. If the latter is the case, I expect the motors are likely a bit bent by the ~460 mph impact with the Atlantic.

Bob

[dlazarus6660]

Ok, Who is gonna be the first person to build a scale S1-C and test the theory.

[JStarStar]

The text about the first stage in the book originally came from the NASA's Saturn V Press Kit. The text is found on page 19 of the first stage fact sheet.

The S-IC burned out at ~40 miles and apogeed at ~60 miles. At the atmosphere at those altitudes is not dense enough to provide significant drag forces on an object traveling at less than Mach 10 so once it achieves apogee, the stage would backslide down. The unanswered question is when the stage reaches the lower atmosphere, do the fins cause the stage to flip and impact nose first, or does the CG dominate and the impact occurs motors first. If the latter is the case, I expect the motors are likely a bit bent by the ~460 mph impact with the Atlantic.

Bob

Plus the S1-C had velocity of some 6,000 mph at separation -- without exterior heat shielding -- so when the stage reached apogee and then re-entered the denser regions of the atmosphere at 100,000 feet or so, the exterior surfaces of the stage (at least the leading edges) would build up heat pretty fast as it descended. If there was any gaseous residue remaining inside the tanks I would guess they would go kaboom pretty fast when they heated up to a few hundred degrees.

The engine bells of course were built to withstand heat so i would guess they would be the most likely items to impact relatively intact.