LV 1 cert advice

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Fox Flyers Rocketry

Fox Flyers Rocketry

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Greetings! I have been considering getting my LV 1 certification this summer. I was hoping I might get some opinions on a couple of rockets. I was thinking about getting either a LOC 4" V-2, or a Mad Cow 4" Phoenix for my LV 1 cert bird. Would one of these be a better choice than the other for a first HP rocket?
 
Both fine choices..Personally, for the same price as the Phoenix, I would get the 4" Patriot and then I would go with the 54mm option..But either of your 2 are fine for an L1 rocket.
 
The Phoenix is a great rocket! Mine eats CTI H152 blue motors all afternoon.

Just remember that it flies with the wind :wink:
 
I got my Level 1 cert with the LOC IV on an AT H123W. After my certification, I bought an AV bay with payload extension and flew my first dual deploy. IMO - It's a great 'traditional style' rocket and a good choice.

027.jpg
 
If your wanting an easy build, I recommend the LOC IV. Its a very low risk stable design. I used rail buttons on mine.

I got my level 1 last Saturday with a Mad Cow Phoenix. Great rocket, but that is a TON Of fins to bevel, sand, fillet, and seal. It took me way longer than I had anticipated, but I'm a perfectionist and made sure it was done right. The Phoenix is a great kit for someone who wants to take their time. As Fe Dude said, it does fly with the wind, I added 14oz of nose weight to mine to get it stable. I used expanding foam after using epoxy to encapsulate the weights in the tip of the nose.

The same day I got my cert, a young guy got certed on a LOC IV. I was shocked at the horrible epoxy work on the fins..... but it did hold together!

I haven't actually flown my LOC IV yet, I attempted to put it up last Sunday on a 38/120 motor but forgot the wrench to lower the adapter on my rail. Oops.

cert shot.jpg

127.jpg
 
Best L1 advise I can offer DON'T DO IT!! Strange things will happen to you. Suddenly everything you see you'll figure out how to launch it! You'll start planning your vacation around launches. Your bank account will drain. You'll quickly be able to calculate how much overtime you'll need to work in order to buy that new reload case. You'll train your children how to be a recovery crew. STOP THE MADNESS!!:y:
 
stantonjtroy said:
Best L1 advise I can offer DON'T DO IT!! Strange things will happen to you. Suddenly everything you see you'll figure out how to launch it! You'll start planning your vacation around launches. Your bank account will drain. You'll quickly be able to calculate how much overtime you'll need to work in order to buy that new reload case. You'll train your children how to be a recovery crew. STOP THE MADNESS!!:y:
Click to expand...

I second that!!!

Lets see, I got my cert last Saturday. Since then, I have ordered a LOC Bruiser, a 54/852 motor, a 38/480 motor, aeropak motor retention, and a whole mess of other parts. Good thing tomorrow is payday!!! (ooooh, more rockets!!!)

Must....get....level 2.....soon.......

At this rate, I'll be parking my car in the driveway since the rockets are taking over the garage.....
 
I have the Loc 4" V2. If you go that route, I'd strongly recommend replacing the elastic shock cord with tubular nylon or kevlar. In order to make the scale v2 stable, it has a ton of weight in that great big nose cone. Lots of energy there, and on my maiden flight the nose parted company with the rest of the rocket and came straight down hard. Buried the nose 4 inches into the dirt. I was happy no one was under it.
 
gldknght said:
I have the Loc 4" V2. If you go that route, I'd strongly recommend replacing the elastic shock cord with tubular nylon or kevlar. In order to make the scale v2 stable, it has a ton of weight in that great big nose cone. Lots of energy there, and on my maiden flight the nose parted company with the rest of the rocket and came straight down hard. Buried the nose 4 inches into the dirt. I was happy no one was under it.
Click to expand...

It must get pretty hard to get the V2 stable, youtube is full of V2's turning into post hole diggers............
 
neond7 said:
I second that!!!

Lets see, I got my cert last Saturday. Since then, I have ordered a LOC Bruiser, a 54/852 motor, a 38/480 motor, aeropak motor retention, and a whole mess of other parts. Good thing tomorrow is payday!!! (ooooh, more rockets!!!)

Must....get....level 2.....soon.......

At this rate, I'll be parking my car in the driveway since the rockets are taking over the garage.....
Click to expand...

Yes. Yes you will.
 
GDJ said:
Quick question: is Dual deploy needed or even necessary on a L1 cert rocket?
Click to expand...

I can't say for Tripoli but for NAR, no it is not a requirement. I did my L1 with apogee deploy. Walked a mile but got my Cert. That was the last time I went with out DD. In fact with NAR it's not even need for L2, though most folks use it at that point.
 
GDJ said:
Quick question: is Dual deploy needed or even necessary on a L1 cert rocket?
Click to expand...

I'd recommend against using dual deploy for your level 1 cert, unless you've used it before that flight enough to be really comfortable with it. You want your cert flights to be as uncomplicated as possible.
 
there is no requirement for dual deploy for either level one or two.
 
GDJ said:
Quick question: is Dual deploy needed or even necessary on a L1 cert rocket?
Click to expand...

No, it is not.

gldknght said:
I'd recommend against using dual deploy for your level 1 cert, unless you've used it before that flight enough to be really comfortable with it. You want your cert flights to be as uncomplicated as possible.
Click to expand...

I used dual deploy on all my cert flights and in most flights since then. The only exception is when i have a stubby rocket that makes dual deploy difficult or impossible. There is a large contingent of KISS (keep it simple, stupid) fans for cert attempts. Yes, it adds a level of complexity, but it can also be a lot more satisfying to see everything work correctly and get your cert in style. If you want to go dual deploy, I say have at it.

cbrarick said:
there is no requirement for dual deploy for either level one or two.
Click to expand...

There is actually no requirement for dual deploy for level three either. You must use electronics (all M motors and above are plugged) and you must have redundant electronics, (i.e., two altimeters), but you are not required to do dual deployment. You can pop the main at apogee if you want.
 
Thanks for all the info everyone! It's been really helpful. One more question if you don't mind. I've herd descent rate is a concern when getting your cert. Are the stock recovery systems in these rockets adequate or should I upgrade to a larger parachute?
 
013Rocketry said:
Thanks for all the info everyone! It's been really helpful. One more question if you don't mind. I've herd descent rate is a concern when getting your cert. Are the stock recovery systems in these rockets adequate or should I upgrade to a larger parachute?
Click to expand...

Descent rate is always a concern. For your L3 cert rocket, you have to show that you have a good idea as to your descent rate. There is no hard and fast rule for L3, but 17 FPS is generally a recommendation.

As for upsizing your chute, I would build the kit, then weigh it and look up the descent rate for your chute with a rocket of that weight. Different folks build heavier or lighter, so it kind of comes down to your finished rocket weight. Most people err on the side of a larger chute for cert rockets to ensure that they minimize their chances for damage upon landing.
 
013Rocketry said:
Thanks for all the info everyone! It's been really helpful. One more question if you don't mind. I've herd descent rate is a concern when getting your cert. Are the stock recovery systems in these rockets adequate or should I upgrade to a larger parachute?
Click to expand...

National Association of Rocketry
Level 3 High Power Certification Requirements:

Per Paragraph 2.3
"A safe rate of decent. (20ft/ second is recommended) for any component weighing in excess of eight ounces."

Because of this, if you are going for NAR level 3 cert and your rocket comes down faster than 20fps, your L3cc can disqualify your cert flight if he wants to.
 
GDJ said:
Quick question: is Dual deploy needed or even necessary on a L1 cert rocket?
Click to expand...

No, it is not needed or neccessary. For your L1 Keep It Simmple & Stupid (KISS) My level 1 happened many years ago, but that was the advice I was given then. I went with a 3-fin-and-a-cone and hammered it on an Aerotech H128... I have been flat broke ever since.
 
I tend to agree with rocdoc. If you want to use DD on your cert flight, go for it. It's not that difficult and if you want to use it, do so. I did, and used the Loki I110 moonburner for my cert flight. It turned out to be the highest flight on that rocket until I put a J in it.
 
Thank you for all the replies.

I think I will run the risk and go DD on my cert rocket. I don't like walking for hours looking for my stuff, and I plan on doing my L2 on the same rocket (another overbuilt rocket).
 
DRAGON64 said:
I went with a 3-fin-and-a-cone and hammered it on an Aerotech H128... I have been flat broke ever since.
Click to expand...

I think this has less to do with the hobby and more to do with your lack of restraint, Johnnie. :grin:
 
GDJ said:
Thank you for all the replies.

I think I will run the risk and go DD on my cert rocket. I don't like walking for hours looking for my stuff, and I plan on doing my L2 on the same rocket (another overbuilt rocket).
Click to expand...

Oh, a swing and a miss! Here you were, choosing to go the studly way and get your L1 with dual deployment, and then you had to blow it all by saying you plan on going for L2 with the same rocket:no:. Is it possible? Yes. Is it done all the time? Yes.

But I try to discourage people from doing it. Why? IMO, the point of having certification levels is for you to develop skills needed to safely build and fly high power rockets. Sure, you can overbuild your L1 rocket and then shove a J350 into it to "bag" your L2, but does it really allow you to learn anything more or develop new skills? Probably not. Building a separate L2 bird will allow you to use different techniques and give you additional experience.

In addition, in order to get both L1 and L2 on the same rocket, you are often forced into compromising on both flights. You end up overbuilding your L1, which is then heavy and a poor performer on the I motors available to you, and then you put a little J in it and no one is impressed with your L2 cert, because it's "just another J350.":eyeroll: Rocketry is a pretty phallic hobby. I have pictures of some of my rockets in my office and patients often ask me if I'm trying to compensate for something:kill:. Maybe. That's why if you're going to be a stud and go for DD on your L1, you should shake it up a bit and build something cool for L2 that will take a K. That'll get people to stop prepping their rockets for a second and take a look at yours:cool:. That's why my L1 was on an I284, L2 on a K550, and L3 on an N4100. Go big or go home.

So here's the disclaimer: No offense is intended, much of the rant above is meant to be tongue in cheek, and your mileage may vary. We're all in this hobby for our own personal reasons. Do what makes you happy as long as it's safe. Just wanted to put in my two cents regarding the L1 and L2 certs.

Have a great time on your L1 build and cert. Think about L2 afterwards. Looking forward to your build.

Regards,
Bryan
 
rocdoc said:
Oh, a swing and a miss! Here you were, choosing to go the studly way and get your L1 with dual deployment, and then you had to blow it all by saying you plan on going for L2 with the same rocket:no:. Is it possible? Yes. Is it done all the time? Yes.

But I try to discourage people from doing it. Why? IMO, the point of having certification levels is for you to develop skills needed to safely build and fly high power rockets. Sure, you can overbuild your L1 rocket and then shove a J350 into it to "bag" your L2, but does it really allow you to learn anything more or develop new skills? Probably not. Building a separate L2 bird will allow you to use different techniques and give you additional experience.

In addition, in order to get both L1 and L2 on the same rocket, you are often forced into compromising on both flights. You end up overbuilding your L1, which is then heavy and a poor performer on the I motors available to you, and then you put a little J in it and no one is impressed with your L2 cert, because it's "just another J350.":eyeroll: Rocketry is a pretty phallic hobby. I have pictures of some of my rockets in my office and patients often ask me if I'm trying to compensate for something:kill:. Maybe. That's why if you're going to be a stud and go for DD on your L1, you should shake it up a bit and build something cool for L2 that will take a K. That'll get people to stop prepping their rockets for a second and take a look at yours:cool:. That's why my L1 was on an I284, L2 on a K550, and L3 on an N4100. Go big or go home.

So here's the disclaimer: No offense is intended, much of the rant above is meant to be tongue in cheek, and your mileage may vary. We're all in this hobby for our own personal reasons. Do what makes you happy as long as it's safe. Just wanted to put in my two cents regarding the L1 and L2 certs.

Have a great time on your L1 build and cert. Think about L2 afterwards. Looking forward to your build.

Regards,
Bryan
Click to expand...

Actually in Canada a J engine is a L3.

L1 allows me to get H impulse.
L2 allows me to get I impulse.
L3 allows me to get J, K, L impulse.
L4 allows me to get M, N, O impulse.

So, eventho' the rocket is overbuilt recovery-wise, it can still be built light enough to get some serious altitude (my L1 rocket plans show 2500+ feet from a CTI H152 engine, and just over 5000 feet from a CTI I216 engine) and both will stay just below transonic speed).

As far as bling and show is concerned, that's a bit less of a priority, however I don't consider a scale model of a Exocet MM 38 exactly plain, nor a crappy design. Ask the British around here if they fought in the Falklands. It's easy for me to build one of those light and strong enough to do a decent L1 and L2 launch.

So for me, L3 will most likely be a new rocket eventho' I still can get J's in a 38mm mount. L4 is a WAY future consideration. L1 and L2 I can get fairly quickly and painlessly without dropping too much $$$.

If I sound like I'm getting my shorts in a knot, I'm not really. Our countries have slightly different rules regarding HPR launches and certs, and we have to abide and alter our thinking in regards to those rules. I'm simply taking advantage of what limitations our L1 and L2 regulations have me to work with, and going from there.
 
Last edited:
Ah yes, my bad. I had forgotten that you were in Canada. In that case, I heartily agree that you should get both L1 and L2 on the same rocket. Sorry bout that.
:blush:
 
rocdoc said:
Ah yes, my bad. I had forgotten that you were in Canada. In that case, I heartily agree that you should get both L1 and L2 on the same rocket. Sorry bout that.
:blush:
Click to expand...

Ah forgetaboutit! I was kinda grumpy when I typed that out (scrapped with the wife first thing in the morning. Not a great way to start the day).
 
rocdoc said:
Descent rate is always a concern. For your L3 cert rocket, you have to show that you have a good idea as to your descent rate. There is no hard and fast rule for L3, but 17 FPS is generally a recommendation.

As for upsizing your chute, I would build the kit, then weigh it and look up the descent rate for your chute with a rocket of that weight. Different folks build heavier or lighter, so it kind of comes down to your finished rocket weight. Most people err on the side of a larger chute for cert rockets to ensure that they minimize their chances for damage upon landing.
Click to expand...

Thanks! I think I'll do that. Based on what I see on the earlier posts I think I'll go with the Phoenix instead of the V-2. I have an Estes V-2 that shows no signs of stability problems, but I've been told that they enlarged the fins to help with this and that it isn't truly built to scale.
 
My thought on certification rockets is to do what makes you happy. 'tis your flight, fly what you like.

The KISS approach drives me bonkers -- if you're an altitude junkie, and you fly a big, fat, low-performance rocket, how likely are you to ever fly it again? Not very. Will that flight make you happy? Probably not.

Think about the kind of flying you want to do, and certify accordingly.

Yesterday, I signed off on a young man's Level 1 cert, who used electronics for deployment. He only had an apogee charge, but he used electronics. His flight made him happy, and that's what matters.

My son, on the other hand, did Level 1 with a Madcow Seawolf, as that's the rocket that made him happy. There was complexity there, due to the nose weight required to keep it stable, which presents more risk on recovery.

Both worked, both are happy with their rockets.

-Kevin
 
When in doubt, leave it out... omitting electronics keeps your build simple and stoopid. No need to add complexity when it is not a requirement. YES, if it "floats-your-boat" then by all means make a sounding rocket out of your Level 1 flight. It will surely help having the experience when your Level III comes around and you need to add twice the electronics (required).

I was actually given the advice multiple times to keep my Level II big & dumb... the thought was to get it in the air and on the ground without ever losing sight of the rocket, and then be happy with the accomplishment... not me, I used electronics on a small rocket, and flew it on a hybrid motor and hit 4,000+ feet. Back then that was unheard of, to fly a new technology (hybrids circa 1999) as a Level II cert... it made me happy (floats my boat), and was successful on the first shot.

I only give advice on what worked for me... I stop a level II advice, as it took me three tries to get my Level III... I have no expertise here, only air time :)
 
013Rocketry said:
Thanks! I think I'll do that. Based on what I see on the earlier posts I think I'll go with the Phoenix instead of the V-2. I have an Estes V-2 that shows no signs of stability problems, but I've been told that they enlarged the fins to help with this and that it isn't truly built to scale.
Click to expand...

Good choice! Since you decided to go with the Phoenix, I'll post a link of my cert flight (week ago yesterday) on mine.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eP8cfN6-E_E

It was windy and I got to take a long hot walk in the woods to finally track it down. My next purchase will be a beeper!

Post a build thread when you start building yours, I would like to see how it turns out. Its a fun build, but as I stated before, there is many hours of fin work ahead of you if you want them to look decent. I also recommend the Aeropack motor retainer, I got lots of compliments on my rocket from the more senior guys that were surprised that a "noob" like me would know how to properly retain my motors. I did a lot of reading.... ;-)
 

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