Stupid NOOB Questions ...

[SacEsq]

Just bought my first mid-power SU motor (econojet F20-7W) for my Quest Big Dog. Looking over the instructions it seems fairly easy with a couple expections:

1. Cardboard spacers? Instruction No. 5 reads: "IMPORTANT - Please read the following: To safely use Econojet "f" motors to launch an AeroTech Consumer Aerospace rocket, the installation of two spacer tubes in front of the motor is required. ... " Is this only if using those rocket kits? Am I correct in assuming that frisction fitting is all that is necessary in my Big Dog as these appear to have the plastic thrust ring?

2. Copperhead Igniter Installation Up till now I have only used Estes solor igniters and they have two wires coming out of the motor, whereas it appears that the Copperhead Igniters only have a single wire coming out. How do you attach the leads from the launch controller to just a singly igniter wire?

Sorry for what is likely very obvious and noobish questions.

[chadrog]

If it (the motor) has a thrust ring, no spacers are needed. Each side of the copperhead is an individual conductor - you need to insulate one side of each of your igniter clips so each clip contacts only one side, or use the Aerotech clip.

[Grendel]

No stupid questions around here. Just ask whatever you need to ask.

[Handeman]

Asking questions is how you learn. By this time next year you'll be answering this same question for the next noob! It's all good.

The spacer. The key here is to launch an AeroTech Consumer Aerospace rocket. These would be the rockets made by Aerotech like the Mustang or GForce. All the Aerotech rockets have thrust rings. These rings are deep enough in the motor tube that a G sized Hobbyline or SU motor will fit in it correctly. Just like using a spacer for a D12 Estes motor in a kit built for an Estes E motor, you have to use a spacer on the Aerotech kits if you use a motor shorter then the G size.
The alternative is to wrap 4 or 5 layers of masking tape around the nozzle end of the motor so it acts as a thrust ring against the motor tube. How much tape you put on will depend on how far out of the motor tube you want the motor to extend. That should be enough so the motor hook will hold the motor without up and down slop.

The copperhead. The copperhead does have two wires. They happen to be the copper sheet on each side of a plastic material. You can get a special tool to clip on the copperhead, make your own from a clothes pin, or take a piece of heavy paper with a hole punched in the center. Slide the paper on the copperhead and clip the leads on the paper and copperhead so each lead contacts the opposite side of the copperhead.

If you still have questions, ask at the next launch you go to. Most folks will be more then happy to help.

Good luck and fly 'em straight!

[SacEsq]

Hmmm ... may have to watch someone set one up cuz I am not really following this.

[SacEsq]

Well I follow the spacer thing and that is what I thought ... just not quite sure how to do the clips on the Copperhead igniter is all LOL

[Worsaer]

Hmmm ... may have to watch someone set one up cuz I am not really following this.

A couple of things... First, the copperhead is a two- sided strip. Aerotech makes a special clip for their Interlock Controller (their name for the launch contol box - google it...) that makes this connection. You can make your own, or buy just the clip and make a whip that you keep handy in your field box. Also, and you may already be way ahead me on this one, if you are used to the low voltage solar ignitors, you might be disappointed unless you launch with a hefty 12 volt system. If you're flying with a club they'll help you with both of these. These are not dumb questions - people will usually go out of their way to help, and you'll no doubt do the same some day.
Link to the clip:
http://www.google.com/products/catal...ed=0CFQQ8gIwBA

[SacEsq]

A couple of things... First, the copperhead is a two- sided strip. Aerotech makes a special clip for their Interlock Controller (their name for the launch contol box - google it...) that makes this connection. You can make your own, or buy just the clip and make a whip that you keep handy in your field box. Also, and you may already be way ahead me on this one, if you are used to the low voltage solar ignitors, you might be disappointed unless you launch with a hefty 12 volt system. If you're flying with a club they'll help you with both of these. These are not dumb questions - people will usually go out of their way to help, and you'll no doubt do the same some day.
Link to the clip:
http://www.google.com/products/catal...ed=0CFQQ8gIwBA

Thanks. I just recently joined SARG (Sacramento Area Rocketry Group) and they are a great bunch of people. I am certain they will share their knowledge.

[New Ocean]

So the copperhead is two thin strips of copper glued to eachother. Each strip is one side of a circuit, that meets at the black end with material that will burn. To complete the circuit, you have to have electricity going into one side and out the other. If you clip both clips to both sides, you will short the thing out and it wont work. So you have to get one alligator clip getting juice to one side of the igniter, and the other getting juice to the other side. But NOT both! That means one of the following:

You can tape the alligator clips so that only one side has metal and the other side is non-conducting tape. Then clip them so that you have a tape end and a metal end on one side of the igniter, and the same on the other.

As an alternative, that wont gum up your alligator clips as much, use two small strips of tape, one on each side of the copperhead, and then clip accordingly.

The thing that I used to do was gently heat the non-burning end of the copperhead over a lighter, candle, or stove top. Gently is the key word, just enough heat to get the glue inside to burn off and the two thin strips of copper will pull apart and become two very thin strips. Those strips now work like a normal two wire igniter, but be warned that they are fragile and can short eachother out now because they are free moving. Obviously never get the burning end near a heat source because it will probably burn!

No need to buy or use the special clip, I find it too heavy for mid power igniters and it either winds up twisting them or pulling them out on a windy day. Then when your rocket flies, you forget all about it and it gets lost.

[skyspike1]

Thanks for that tip;"New Ocean". I also use Econojet F23-4FJ motors alot in my Aerotech Cheetah,ect.(They are a bargan at HobbyLinc) I had purchased Aerotech Interlock controller last yr, and first thing i did was cut off the special copperhead clip so i could use it for other igniters/motors. However, I lost the clip and whenever I use copperhead type igniters, I use the "tape on one side of each alligator clip" method. But this can be tricky. One scratch on the foil and hit and miss on launch.
I read the trick above about heating and peeling the 2 sides apart. Definately going to try that!
Also..you really do need 12v for Copperheads w/Econojets !!

[atticus]

When using the tape method, whether on the Copperhead itself or the clips, you don't want to use toothed clips. The teeth (unless they're real wimpy springs - and then you have other problems) can go through the first copper strip and the insulator contacting the other strip and creating a circuit that bypasses the business end of the ignitor.
This happened to me on my very first AT motor flight. Very embarassing.
However many clubs use the toothed "alligator" clips rather than the flat smooth jawed clips.
Now I prefer using the AT clip. It has plenty of tension for good current tranfer and is easy to use. But it did take a few flights before I got into the habit of retrieving it from the pad after each flight.

[Handeman]

I made my own clips from clothe pins. I actually made 4 of them because I was sure I would loose several by leaving them at the pad.

I've been using the first clip now for 2 years. Go figure.

[o1d_dude]

What NewOcean said.

Heat the end until the two layers of copper de-laminate. Then you can use the regular alligator clips without worrying about shorting out the leads. No extra expense of the Aerotech clip that you'll just leave on the pad anyway.

See me at the field on Saturday and I'll show you some crapperheads that I've already separated.

[dcastle]

One additional piece of advice regarding Copperheads...

Once you have successfully used them a few times, never ever mention to other flyers that you don't understand why people complain about them so much because you've never had one fail...

...because, when I did that, on my next launch using a copperhead it took 5...yes, 5....igniters to get the rocket in the air. The last one wasn't a copperhead.

[powderburner]

Important points that have already been "hit"

--Use a gentle flame source to heat the tail of the copperhead to separate it into two conductors

--When using the copperhead in a single-tail configuration (not separating the conductors) be sure your electrical clips DO NOT have teeth or else they can bite through the metal foil and short-circuit the igniter before it has a chance to function

--You can attach electrical clips (UN-toothed) to the single tail by placing a small piece of vinyl (insulating) tape over one side of the tail, then the first clip, then further down the length of the tail place another small piece of tape on the opposite side of the tail, then the second clip---this gets electric power from the first clip to one side of the igniter, and gets electrical power back out (to ground) from the other side of the igniter, and electrically isolates the other contacting surfaces to avoid the short-circuit problem.

Important points that have not already been "hit"

--If you are using the copperhead in a single-tail configuration (not separating the conductors), you will want to gently scrape down the edges of the tail to remove any stray "whiskers" of conductive material that remain from the factory ribbon-punching process that might bridge between the two conductors and give you a short circuit. Scraping the edges with a sharp hobby knife should do the trick most of the time.

--If you separate the two conductors in the tail of the copperhead, and attach clips separately to these leads, it is OK to use electrical clips with teeth....but you probably want to place a piece of tape between the two leads to prevent them from touching and causing a short-circuit

--If you do a search here on TRF (use the "Search" button in the header) and use the term copperhead, you will find a lot of info already posted. If you use the search term crapperhead you will find even more info.


Edit: So, what was your "noob" question? Go ahead and ask it....

[boomtube]

Just remember; there are no stupid questions, just stupid people askin. . .No, that’s not right.

Copperheads take a bit of getting used to. Big alligator clips can punch through the tape you use to insolate one side of each lead.

Try and use the small clips that have no teeth.

There is a tool sold by Aero-Tech that is specifically designed for Copperheads. Many consider it more trouble than it is worth, me included.

The instructions for the Copperhead recommends running a knife blade along each edge to remove any copper whiskers that could potentially short the opposing sides together and foul the ignition.

I suspect that many people don’t do this and I also suspect this is why many people have so much trouble with these igniters.

I’ll try this again; there are no stupid questions just questions being asked by stupid peo… Damn!!!

[1tree]

I made my own clips from clothe pins. I actually made 4 of them because I was sure I would loose several by leaving them at the pad.

I've been using the first clip now for 2 years. Go figure.

Give one away and you will surely loose two more in quick succession. (Or that is what would happen to me anyway.)

[Handeman]

Give one away and you will surely loose two more in quick succession. (Or that is what would happen to me anyway.)

No doubt!

[Spurkey]

Not to beat a dead horse, but if you want to see the 'Copperhead Process' there's a video and some pictures here:

http://www.apogeerockets.com/Copperhead_igniter.asp

[WizardOfAZ]

This is exactly the thread I needed! I recently tried to launch an F25 Aerotech with a Copperhead igniter on a low voltage Estes launch controller. I KNEW it wasn't going to work, but tried it anyway. I told my Dad (who was out there with me), "This thing isn't going to connect right, and even if it does, there won't be enough voltage to light it..." Sure enough, it sat there as we stared in amazement...

So I'm in the same boat!

What is the cheapest way to go about this? I'm not going to go out and just by an Aerotech system. I want to try splitting the Copperhead with the "Gently Heating" method.

What I need,,, is someone to give (or link to) easy instructions on what I need from a hardware store to build both a larger pad and larger ignition system. I want to just walk in and buy the supplies on the list, then follow the instructions to build what I need. Can anyone give that or a link if it's already set up somewhere?

Thank you SO much for the information! I appreciate all the willing support...

[chadrog]

This is the easiest way to hook them up, I've never had an issue with the teeth biting through. And besides, who doesn't have masking tape in their range box?

[WizardOfAZ]

Thanks!

[chadrog]

This is exactly the thread I needed! I recently tried to launch an F25 Aerotech with a Copperhead igniter on a low voltage Estes launch controller. I KNEW it wasn't going to work, but tried it anyway. I told my Dad (who was out there with me), "This thing isn't going to connect right, and even if it does, there won't be enough voltage to light it..." Sure enough, it sat there as we stared in amazement...

So I'm in the same boat!

What is the cheapest way to go about this? I'm not going to go out and just by an Aerotech system. I want to try splitting the Copperhead with the "Gently Heating" method.

What I need,,, is someone to give (or link to) easy instructions on what I need from a hardware store to build both a larger pad and larger ignition system. I want to just walk in and buy the supplies on the list, then follow the instructions to build what I need. Can anyone give that or a link if it's already set up somewhere?

Thank you SO much for the information! I appreciate all the willing support...

As far as wanting a list, that'll be a tough one. There's so many options available, all the advice you get here will create one heck of a list! There's really not much to a 12v launch controller - Required: battery, switch, push button, safety key, wire. That's about it. How you put it together is a matter of your preference.

[scsager]

This is exactly the thread I needed! I recently tried to launch an F25 Aerotech with a Copperhead igniter on a low voltage Estes launch controller. I KNEW it wasn't going to work, but tried it anyway. I told my Dad (who was out there with me), "This thing isn't going to connect right, and even if it does, there won't be enough voltage to light it..." Sure enough, it sat there as we stared in amazement...

So I'm in the same boat!

What is the cheapest way to go about this? I'm not going to go out and just by an Aerotech system. I want to try splitting the Copperhead with the "Gently Heating" method.

What I need,,, is someone to give (or link to) easy instructions on what I need from a hardware store to build both a larger pad and larger ignition system. I want to just walk in and buy the supplies on the list, then follow the instructions to build what I need. Can anyone give that or a link if it's already set up somewhere?

Thank you SO much for the information! I appreciate all the willing support...

The cheapest thing you can do is buy a pack of Estes Sonic Igniters. These will light your F25 and will work with the Estes Launch Controller. (fresh batteries suggested)

-OR-

To properly meet the NAR safety code - put longer wires on the controller. Minimum of 30 feet for E-G motors.

Also consider a better launch rod - 4 foot steel rod from the hardware store.

Really want to use the Copperhead... 12v battery required (also available from many hardware stores)

Clothespin copperhead clips can be made quickly, easily and inexpensively. I made mine in about a minute with supplies I had on hand.

- Clothespins, the wood ones with a spring.
- Electrical tape - for insulation over the spring, masking tape works too.
- Foil tape - the kind used on HVAC duct work. Got mine at Walmart.

1. Tiny piece of electrical tape over the spring slot just to eliminate a short.
2. Cut the foil tape about 5 inches long, then cut into 1/4 inch wide strips.

The pictures illustrate just how simple this is.

[WizardOfAZ]

Thanks Scott. I'll probably try this. I do want longer wires. As much safety as possible is priority with my three year old running around!

[WizardOfAZ]

Here's a quick question that's near to on topic. If you get the Aerotech Interlock controller, it hooks up to a 12v battery. Is that a battery near the pad and there's a relay? Or is that a battery near the controller and the 12v travels the 40 feet? I can't find this anywhere on Aerotech's website...

[chadrog]

Here's a quick question that's near to on topic. If you get the Aerotech Interlock controller, it hooks up to a 12v battery. Is that a battery near the pad and there's a relay? Or is that a battery near the controller and the 12v travels the 40 feet? I can't find this anywhere on Aerotech's website...

The battery is by the controller, on your end. If you're wanting to try one, I have one available.

[WizardOfAZ]

The battery is by the controller, on your end. If you're wanting to try one, I have one available.

Well it's a toss up for me. On one hand I want any controller that lights my Copperhead igniter and Aerotech motor in the next week to two. On the other hand, I want something home made, with a little bit of ingenuity and awe factor like this : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dqx_GpqcTck

I could start with easy and work up to the other, but how much am I going to spend on a basic Aerotech controller that I could apply towards the components needed for something cool? I really like the wireless car headlight controller idea for a relay to launch rockets. I'd love to use something like that and the above video to create a really nice wireless relayed controller.

I just don't know. I have the ambition but not the knowledge or experience...

[chadrog]

Well it's a toss up for me. On one hand I want any controller that lights my Copperhead igniter and Aerotech motor in the next week to two. On the other hand, I want something home made, with a little bit of ingenuity and awe factor like this : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dqx_GpqcTck

I could start with easy and work up to the other, but how much am I going to spend on a basic Aerotech controller that I could apply towards the components needed for something cool? I really like the wireless car headlight controller idea for a relay to launch rockets. I'd love to use something like that and the above video to create a really nice wireless relayed controller.

I just don't know. I have the ambition but not the knowledge or experience...

You should just keep doing your research then, what you want will come to you eventually if you keep looking. There was a thread running not too long ago regarding home built launch control systems, have you seen it? I'll try to find it.

[WizardOfAZ]

Well,,, after looking through Apogee, I found and ordered this :

https://www.apogeerockets.com/wireless_controller.asp



Yes, yes,,, I realize it doesn't have a key! So technically, it's not approved by the NAR, voiding my insurance if I use it, and not acceptable at my club's launches.

However, it's EXACTLY what I'm imagining! It's small, wireless, easy to use, and cheap! It will no doubt require some added safety measures on my part to be sure I don't launch a rocket while I'm squatting at the pad. I can manage going beyond common sense though. I am a little concerned about which igniters will work with this controller, but after watching the Apogee video on the subject (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PHDor...layer_embedded), I am much less concerned. I get the feeling they are trying to cover their a** somehow from a legality standpoint. It appears to work just fine. I'll try a variety of igniters to see what works well. I'm not going to try and make it 12v or anything crazy that will get me killed. I'm just going to ding around with it and see what it does. For $45, I cannot be disappointed...

If it's not what I'm imagining, no biggy. I'll just write off that $45 as research and development and move on. As soon as I get it I'll give it a try and return back here with my feedback...