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  1. #1
    Join Date
    20th February 2012
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    Weyburn SK
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    26

    Painting do's and don'ts. mixing laquer and enamel

    K. I'm a new guy here. Which paint types do you not mix? Laquer over enamel. Acrylic over laquer.
    I have access to rustoleum, Duplicolor automotive laquer(no Yellows), Tremclad(which I hate), Krylon(I dislike as well), and a few other nonames.


    Thanks in advance. I just want to be doing this right. Just started putting together an Inititor, and a Arreaux.


  2. #2
    Join Date
    18th January 2009
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    Needville, TX and Shiner, TX
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    Generally speaking, you don't want to apply LACQUERS over ENAMELS. This is because the solvents used in lacquers are MUCH "hotter" (stronger, faster evaporating) than enamel solvents, and the lacquer solvents can 'dissolve' the enamel paint underneath them, leading to "alligatoring" or cracking or other things that TOTALLY ruin the paint finish. When something like this happens, your best bet is to wipe the whole mess off with a paper towel soaked in lacquer thinner, allow it to dry thoroughly, sand anything else off if necessary, and start over with the finishing process...

    Now, like everything else, there ARE exceptions to the rules... some folks HAVE applied lacquers over enamels successfully, but it is NOT a "beginners technique" and is risky at the best of times... it can be done in VERY VERY THIN, gradual coats, that don't put enough lacquer thinner/paint onto the enamel surface to attack it.

    Enamel, having 'softer, slower' solvents, CAN be applied safely over lacquer in most cases. Other paints can be applied over one another with various levels of success...

    Paint formulations have gotten SO complex and different between manufacturers that it's hard to say anymore WHAT is compatible with anything else... for instance, many folks report problems with new Krylon even being applied over itself, even after CAREFULLY respecting the recoat instructions on the can... other paints seem to work well no matter what they're applied over (and usually with just about anything applied over them.)

    The main thing to remember is, no matter WHAT you're using... the safest bet to ensure compatibility of the paints is to do a PAINT TEST on scrap tubing or cardboard or something similar to ENSURE that the paint coats will work nicely with each other and not attack each other...

    Good luck! OL JR

    The X-87B Cruise Basselope- THE ultimate weapon in the arsenal of homeland defense and only $52 million per round!

  3. #3
    Join Date
    2nd March 2010
    Location
    N.Haverhill,NH
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    6,341
    Quote Originally Posted by topper View Post
    K. I'm a new guy here. Which paint types do you not mix? Laquer over enamel. Acrylic over laquer.
    I have access to rustoleum, Duplicolor automotive laquer(no Yellows), Tremclad(which I hate), Krylon(I dislike as well), and a few other nonames.


    Thanks in advance. I just want to be doing this right. Just started putting together an Inititor, and a Arreaux.
    Quote Originally Posted by luke strawwalker View Post
    Generally speaking, you don't want to apply LACQUERS over ENAMELS. This is because the solvents used in lacquers are MUCH "hotter" (stronger, faster evaporating) than enamel solvents, and the lacquer solvents can 'dissolve' the enamel paint underneath them, leading to "alligatoring" or cracking or other things that TOTALLY ruin the paint finish. When something like this happens, your best bet is to wipe the whole mess off with a paper towel soaked in lacquer thinner, allow it to dry thoroughly, sand anything else off if necessary, and start over with the finishing process...

    Now, like everything else, there ARE exceptions to the rules... some folks HAVE applied lacquers over enamels successfully, but it is NOT a "beginners technique" and is risky at the best of times... it can be done in VERY VERY THIN, gradual coats, that don't put enough lacquer thinner/paint onto the enamel surface to attack it.

    Enamel, having 'softer, slower' solvents, CAN be applied safely over lacquer in most cases. Other paints can be applied over one another with various levels of success...

    Paint formulations have gotten SO complex and different between manufacturers that it's hard to say anymore WHAT is compatible with anything else... for instance, many folks report problems with new Krylon even being applied over itself, even after CAREFULLY respecting the recoat instructions on the can... other paints seem to work well no matter what they're applied over (and usually with just about anything applied over them.)

    The main thing to remember is, no matter WHAT you're using... the safest bet to ensure compatibility of the paints is to do a PAINT TEST on scrap tubing or cardboard or something similar to ENSURE that the paint coats will work nicely with each other and not attack each other...

    Good luck! OL JR
    WOW,I was going to ask that same thing. I couldnt remember which way it went. Under-over or over-under?
    But , as you (luke) say..hard telling not knowing till you run a test.
    With all the different kinds of paints and such.
    The part about using the same paint over itself even when you give it all the time in the world between aps,sometimes just doesnt work.
    My resent paint job on the SWs Stinger...WTF I was saying.
    I let that sucker dry a week,I lightly(and I mean lightly) wet sanded it with 800 and when I put the paint to it, wrinkle city.
    I have more time in the finish of that rocket than any other Ive painted.
    I finaly got it to look OK from the front, on the back around the LL ,it still looks like grandmas face.
    Anywhoo- thanks for the asking topper and thanks for the info luke
    NAR 90998
    SAM 0322
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    I'll let the experts answer that one.
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  4. #4
    Join Date
    6th June 2011
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    San Diego. CA.
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    I have found using canned air from Office Depot applied directly over a newly completed build gives me the best finish I can get.
    TRA 2383
    Wife wants to know why every road trip winds up at a dry lake. She likes to fish....

  5. #5
    Join Date
    18th January 2009
    Location
    Needville, TX and Shiner, TX
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    Quote Originally Posted by fyrwrxz View Post
    I have found using canned air from Office Depot applied directly over a newly completed build gives me the best finish I can get.
    fyrwrxz... messin' with the noobs again... LOL

    Don't confuse me! LOL

    Later! OL JR
    The X-87B Cruise Basselope- THE ultimate weapon in the arsenal of homeland defense and only $52 million per round!

  6. #6
    Join Date
    16th August 2011
    Location
    Edmonton, Alberta, CANADA
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    2,920
    Okay, so far I found that:

    -Rustoleum plastic primer and plastic paint work great together
    -Rustoleum plastic primer and Rustoleum metallic paint work great
    -Rustoleum plastic primer and Tremclad rust paint works pretty good
    -Rustoleum Appliance Epoxy paint works fine without primer. Other paints stick to it fine, but it hates being painted over anything (including primer)
    Plays with wood, cardboard, and carpenters glue at home.

    "We have done the impossible and that makes us mighty"
    -rocketeers vs. BATF

    Ego intentio parumper perficio fuga , tamen Ego peto a perficio reverto.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    18th November 2011
    Location
    Phoenix AZ
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    149
    I use auto paint with a cup sprayer and love it, more work yes but cheaper in the long run... Spray can's add up fast especially on larger rockets

  8. #8
    Join Date
    6th June 2010
    Location
    Carmel, IN
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    4,227
    I now use water based acrylics with an airbrush for most of my painting, but in rattle-can world I've essentially given up on enamels. I use the following when doing spray can painting:

    -Start with Rustoleum automotive filler primer. Sand / recoat / repeat until nice and smooth.

    -Valspar white spray primer from Lowes gives me a solid white base coat next, if I'm painting bright colors (like white, yellow, red topcoats).

    -Then any combination of lacquer topcoats including Valspar, Rustoleum (Lowes/HD usually has white, black, red, clear), Duplicolor lacquers (auto parts store/aisle), Testors One Coat lacquers (hobby shops / Micheals / Hobby Lobby), or LustreKote lacquer from hobby shops. Any of these in any over/under combination has worked well for me.

    -Generally speaking, Rustoleum fluorescent paints can go fine over the above, but wait until the lacquer paint is fully dry to avoid the fluorescent paint from beading up.

    -Clearcoat if desired with Valspar lacquer high gloss (most resistant to getting foggy/milking/blush), or if you are in a dry area, any other lacquer gloss.

    -Instead of a lacquer clearcoat, Future (AKA Pledge with Future Shine) is a good gloss coat that can be removed if needed or reapplied without peril.

    Good luck!!

    Marc
    Thou shalt not violate causality within my historic light cone. Or Else.
    NAR member 92906

  9. #9
    Join Date
    20th February 2012
    Location
    Weyburn SK
    Posts
    26
    Thanks guys and gals.
    I'm going with duplicolor on both models. So far the Filler Primer works very well, covering most imperfections after 6 coats & light sanding between.
    Even the plastic nose cones are starting to look good and smooth.
    I tried the canned air, but it didn't cover very well at all Ha Ha Ha.

    If they are noteworthy, I'll post pics later.
    Thanks again
    Topper.
    Last edited by topper; 22nd February 2012 at 07:23 AM.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    11th January 2011
    Location
    Fayetteville, AR
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    1,757
    So...just now applying a coat of Valspar clear lacquer over Valspar Enamel. No reactions whatsoever that I can see. The enamel had cured for 3 days and was STILL sensitive to touch. I absolutely LOATHE rattle can enamels as they all seem to behave in this manner.

    The Valspar Clear Lacquer goes on fine...no tendency to run unless laid on very heavy. It doesn't seem as glossy as the Testors Wet Look Lacquer...but it's ALSO not $5.00 a tiny can
    Jeff Pummill
    Fayetteville, AR
    TRA 13095 L2
    Tripoli Tulsa
    Tripoli Kansas "Kloudbusters"
    ----------
    Largest Motor Flown: 5 Grain "K" Research Motor
    Highest Alt Reached: 7128 ft.

    Fly 'em high or blow 'em up spectacular!

  11. #11
    Join Date
    6th June 2010
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    Carmel, IN
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    You are lucky! Usually putting any Lacquer over any enamel is a recipe for a crinkly disaster!
    Thou shalt not violate causality within my historic light cone. Or Else.
    NAR member 92906

  12. #12
    Join Date
    21st January 2009
    Location
    Nashville TN USA
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    7,612
    I've sprayed lacquer over enamel many times.

    in fact alclad is lacquer and you have to spray their hi gloss finishes over a black enamel base.
    modelmaster metalizers are lacquer and they work great over enamel
    I've also sprayed several car models with testors enamel and cleared them with hi gloss Lacquer.

    it's mixing paint "brands" that can cause more trouble than anything, depending on what solvent they are using.In that case spray some test pieces first

    I even thin my enamels with lacquer thinner for airbrushing
    Last edited by Stymye; 28th February 2012 at 07:21 PM.
    Andy

  13. #13
    Join Date
    19th May 2011
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    Southern, CA
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    Quote Originally Posted by luke strawwalker View Post
    fyrwrxz... messin' with the noobs again... LOL

    Don't confuse me! LOL

    Later! OL JR
    Using black shoe polish over a gloss black paint job adds luster and shine...not sure about the air can? I use it to blow sanding dust off my rockets

  14. #14
    "Best paint" is like "Best religion".

    My personal fave is RustAllOverThem
    I've bought it by the case and spraybombed, by the 5 gallon pail and gunned it.

    Highest solids content(paint, what you are paying for).
    It just works.

    Other brands spraybombs cheap out on valving and paint.
    Last edited by nealkas; 28th February 2012 at 10:15 PM.
    Is that supposed to smoke like that?

  15. #15
    another new guy.... painted part of my sons motorcycle with urethane paints... a base and color. Didn't spring for their clear...$34. Can I shoot some Duplicolor over the urethane? If not can one buy urethane clear at a car parts store?

  16. #16
    Join Date
    2nd March 2010
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    N.Haverhill,NH
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrDaytona View Post
    another new guy.... painted part of my sons motorcycle with urethane paints... a base and color. Didn't spring for their clear...$34. Can I shoot some Duplicolor over the urethane? If not can one buy urethane clear at a car parts store?
    Is it a "Rice" rocket your talking about

    run a test. Spray the urethane on something and then try the DP. do you have some over sprayed mask or something else that has some urethane onit

    test,test,test is my way.
    Last edited by Scotty Dog; 25th April 2014 at 03:24 PM.
    NAR 90998
    SAM 0322
    Give Blood!
    I'll let the experts answer that one.
    Somedays its hard to stay centered on being eccentric.
    I like Fat-Bottomed Rockets
    Temple of the Dog

  17. #17
    Join Date
    18th January 2009
    Location
    west Ft Worth
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    7,349

    Homework time

    I know it is easier to just ask qstns than it is to dig through old posts and do research, but...

    You really really need to spend a bit of time using the search button to go through Micromeister's old posts about painting. He has TONS of hard-learned lessons documented, lots of painting and finishing tips, gobs of helpful info if you want to learn how to make your rockets look pretty.

    I am not a big fan of chasing through "old" posts, but in this case I think you will find it is well worthwhile.
    This is the country that built the transcontinental railroads, the Hoover dam, the Panama canal, coast-to-coast interstates, and put men on the moon....but we can't build a fence.

  18. #18
    Join Date
    15th June 2011
    Location
    Macon GA
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    1,830
    So I pick up a rattle can and look at the ingredients...what tells me whether it is enamel or lacquer?
    LW Bercini
    TRA #00134 / NAR #18121
    Seeing "the box" from the rear view mirror since 1970


    I don't measure my enjoyment of the hobby in Newton-Seconds

    It never ceases to amaze me how so many otherwise intelligent people have such poor reading comprehension.

  19. #19
    Join Date
    9th August 2013
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    Quote Originally Posted by jpummil View Post
    So...just now applying a coat of Valspar clear lacquer over Valspar Enamel. No reactions whatsoever that I can see. The enamel had cured for 3 days and was STILL sensitive to touch. I absolutely LOATHE rattle can enamels as they all seem to behave in this manner.

    The Valspar Clear Lacquer goes on fine...no tendency to run unless laid on very heavy. It doesn't seem as glossy as the Testors Wet Look Lacquer...but it's ALSO not $5.00 a tiny can
    The Valspar has come up a lot Recently and it seems the word is that it takes forever to dry.
    I have decent luck with Krylon Products in general, but will use Testors Spray Enamel when I need a specific Color.
    Sticking to using the same Brand throughout, and reading the Instructions has worked out well for me.
    Also, warming the Paint by putting the Can in a Bowl of warm Water for a couple minutes before use seems to be a worthwhile Technique.

    Sent from my 7 Year Old E-Machines Desk Top PC using the Internet.

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