Saturn V in stages??

[Giggles]

This may be a silly question but here goes...
Has anyone ever done the Saturn V in stages, like the real one? I have seen cluster mods, but couldn't find anyone who has done it in stages. Probably a bad idea for a low-power model. I can't see how it would work without fancy electronics, and that is beyond my experience and budget. I just like to make things as realistic as possible when I am teaching. It is for a space exploration class. Any ideas? Has this been done before?

I am planning on building my Estes Saturn V but I would love to show a video of a launch in stages. Guess I could show a video of the real thing. Just thought I would ask if anyone has done a project like this because it would be cool to see. Thanks for pointing me in the right direction.

~

Giggles

[GuyNoir]

I know of two such Saturns.

Back in the mid 1990's, a NIRA member named Bob Wiersbe tried doing a 3 stager. His third stage electronics were armed only after second stage ignition. All the engine stuff worked fine, but the weathercocking with each stage meant the 3rd stage was pointed down at ignition, and the chute did not come out before impact.

The second model worked better. Here's the writeup from the November / December 2005 edition of Sport Rocketry:

"Peter Bricker’s well-executed Estes 30th anniversary edition Saturn V took fifth in static. But it was the insides that made the model special. He clustered five engines in the first stage—a D12-0 in the center and four B’s for the outboard engines. While the B engines would eject parachutes, the D was to ignite a second stage engine across a nearly 2-foot gap. Assuming all the clustering and staging worked, the second
stage would ignite a third. This ambitions plan would be carried out without any on- board electronics."

. . . . .

"The highlight of scale flying, howev- er, was Peter Bricker’s Saturn V. Peter had flown his cluster-stage combination before, and was confident it would function, ex- cept for the second stage parachute, which relied on the tug of a Kevlar line hanging off the rear of the third stage. Dozens of NARAM contestants gathered around to watch this flight. At ignition the specta- tors clearly saw five yellow flames. On cue, the second stage ignited. Then the third. Whooshhhh-Whooshhhh-Whooshhhh! The sky was full of Saturn stages, all on parachutes. Finally, the third stage ejected the Apollo capsule, which came down on three scale-like striped parachutes. Even the escape rocket came down on its own streamer. The crowd cheered, and 175 mission points propelled Peter’s Saturn V into first place."

[luke strawwalker]

I think Verna over on YORF has done this too... they've done a bunch of stuff with Saturn V's and I'm almost positive they've done this as well...

You have to have "flip out" spring loaded fins on the upper stages that deploy after the upper stage(s) ignite and separate from the lower stages. Otherwise the stack will go unstable. It can be done, definitely, but it's not easy!

Getting everything to work can take a minor miracle, but can be overcome with sufficient care and planning and good design.

Later and good luck! OL JR

PS. there isn't much in rocketry that HASN'T been done, or at least tried, before...

[JStarStar]

Yeah, providing some way to stabilize the Sat V in all 3 stage configurations would be tough.

After first stage burnout, I would guess the S-IC interstage section could be built to spring out into base-drag fins for the second-stage configuration.

Then after the second stage burnout, the transition between the S-II and the S-4B retained as a conical fin unit for the third stage.

Getting all the Apollo modules to come down on separate chutes would be even tougher.

[Giggles]

It's cool to know someone has tried it before. Sounds way above my level, but maybe I can show a video of this to my space and rocketry classes.

[jflis]

About 20 years ago I designed a 4-stage Saturn V (1:70 scale, if I recall) for Jay Marsh. A couple of proto's were built but that's as far as it went. I've often thought of pulling this out and finishing the proto testing...

Here are some drawings of the different stages. The first stage was a 5 motor cluster. Big puppy, that's for sure!

jim

[thobin]

I know of two such Saturns.

Back in the mid 1990's, a NIRA member named Bob Wiersbe tried doing a 3 stager. His third stage electronics were armed only after second stage ignition. All the engine stuff worked fine, but the weathercocking with each stage meant the 3rd stage was pointed down at ignition, and the chute did not come out before impact.

The second model worked better. Here's the writeup from the November / December 2005 edition of Sport Rocketry:

"Peter Bricker’s well-executed Estes 30th anniversary edition Saturn V took fifth in static. But it was the insides that made the model special. He clustered five engines in the first stage—a D12-0 in the center and four B’s for the outboard engines. While the B engines would eject parachutes, the D was to ignite a second stage engine across a nearly 2-foot gap. Assuming all the clustering and staging worked, the second
stage would ignite a third. This ambitions plan would be carried out without any on- board electronics."

. . . . .

"The highlight of scale flying, howev- er, was Peter Bricker’s Saturn V. Peter had flown his cluster-stage combination before, and was confident it would function, ex- cept for the second stage parachute, which relied on the tug of a Kevlar line hanging off the rear of the third stage. Dozens of NARAM contestants gathered around to watch this flight. At ignition the specta- tors clearly saw five yellow flames. On cue, the second stage ignited. Then the third. Whooshhhh-Whooshhhh-Whooshhhh! The sky was full of Saturn stages, all on parachutes. Finally, the third stage ejected the Apollo capsule, which came down on three scale-like striped parachutes. Even the escape rocket came down on its own streamer. The crowd cheered, and 175 mission points propelled Peter’s Saturn V into first place."

NEED PICTURES! oh yes we need pictures. Now this thread has my full attention.

TA

[jdbectec]

Here's a little info on staged Saturns:

http://www.vernarockets.com/id25.html

Enjoy.

[JStarStar]

I dunno, but putting big visible fins on the upper stages to me kind of defeats the whole purpose of calling it a "Saturn V model."

If it doesn't look anything at all like a Saturn V, can you really call it a model? If it doesn't really look like the Saturn V, what's the point about worrying if the staging process is "realistic" or not?

To me for this idea to make any sense whatsoever, the rocket has to look reasonably like the Saturn V at the time of launch.

Which means you gotta figure out some way to have stabilizing surfaces deploy in flight.

[LAKingsGeek]

I dunno, but putting big visible fins on the upper stages to me kind of defeats the whole purpose of calling it a "Saturn V model."

If it doesn't look anything at all like a Saturn V, can you really call it a model? If it doesn't really look like the Saturn V, what's the point about worrying if the staging process is "realistic" or not?

To me for this idea to make any sense whatsoever, the rocket has to look reasonably like the Saturn V at the time of launch.

Which means you gotta figure out some way to have stabilizing surfaces deploy in flight.

Why not clear plastic fins?

[Grendel]

Why not clear plastic fins?

That was my thought as well.

Anyone try 4 stages? And while their at it pop out a lunar module as well?

[luke strawwalker]

I dunno, but putting big visible fins on the upper stages to me kind of defeats the whole purpose of calling it a "Saturn V model."

If it doesn't look anything at all like a Saturn V, can you really call it a model? If it doesn't really look like the Saturn V, what's the point about worrying if the staging process is "realistic" or not?

To me for this idea to make any sense whatsoever, the rocket has to look reasonably like the Saturn V at the time of launch.

Which means you gotta figure out some way to have stabilizing surfaces deploy in flight.

Because of the stage sizes and arrangement, I think to really make the thing work at all you'd just about have to make the fins "deploy" after staging. I know there was a staged Saturn V in "American Spacemodeling" YEARS (probably more like decades ago) that used clear plastic "pop out" fins that were held in by the lower stages, but which popped out as the lower stage was blown clear after staging.

While ideas like "fold out drag fins" using the interstage or a cone fin on the S-IVB stage (by retaining the S-II conical upper interstage) could work, they'd seem to have JUST as many technical issues with construction as pop out fins, and they'd REALLY detract from the appearance of the rocket in flight... so much so that it begs the question "what's the point?"

I think fixed fins, clear or otherwise, would put them SO far forward (especially on the S-IVB) that it would render the whole thing unstable... requiring so much noseweight to attempt to correct that it'd be a real dog of a performer, barely staggering into the air...

Later! OL JR

[jdbectec]

I dunno, but putting big visible fins on the upper stages to me kind of defeats the whole purpose of calling it a "Saturn V model."

If it doesn't look anything at all like a Saturn V, can you really call it a model? If it doesn't really look like the Saturn V, what's the point about worrying if the staging process is "realistic" or not?

To me for this idea to make any sense whatsoever, the rocket has to look reasonably like the Saturn V at the time of launch.

Which means you gotta figure out some way to have stabilizing surfaces deploy in flight.

I Agree that I don't care for the visible fins. But those pages make a good starting point. At one time there was some info on folding fins avalable but, I'm afraid I've lost track of it.

[JStarStar]

Well,

1) Clear plastic fins on the upper stages would look better than big visible fins, but clear plastic fins aren't exactly invisible and as Luke S points out if you start putting fin surfaces forward on the rocket you are gonna have to load the nose up with cast iron or something to get the CG forward enough to fly stable;

2) You'd have to rig up some kind of elastic-hinge thing on the S-IC interstage to make it flap out in perpendicular sections as 'base drag fins.'

3) The S-4B situation -- keeping the S-II interstage section attached to the third stage as conical fins -- would probably be the easiest and most "normal-looking" part of the whole project (I think I remember seeing early early NASA sketches of the Saturn V which included the conical section staying with the S-4B).

4) Having the SM, LM (AS and DS) and LES also fire off with working motors -- I doubt there's any way you can do it without electronics.

[micrometer]

MANY years ago, back in the 70's, when I was still an NAR member, there was an article in their membership newsletter where someone successfully staged a Centuri Saturn 1B. The second stage fins were hidden inside the 1st stage fuel tanks and upon staging would pull out of the 1st stage tanks and spring into place, as best I can remember, from rubber bands. They were fairly long and skinny but did the job. It wasn't pretty, but it did fly and stage properly. Only two stages though..and no fins glued to the upper stages... Wish I had kept those old newsletters ....

[JStarStar]

MANY years ago, back in the 70's, when I was still an NAR member, there was an article in their membership newsletter where someone successfully staged a Centuri Saturn 1B. The second stage fins were hidden inside the 1st stage fuel tanks and upon staging would pull out of the 1st stage tanks and spring into place, as best I can remember, from rubber bands. They were fairly long and skinny but did the job. It wasn't pretty, but it did fly and stage properly. Only two stages though..and no fins glued to the upper stages... Wish I had kept those old newsletters ....

Since a S-1B has a similar interstage between the first and second stages to the Saturn V, if you could figure out a way to cut the interstage into 4 sections and have them pop open butterfly-style by elastic when the first stage kicks off, you could probably get it to work. (Of course the potential for disaster is high if one or more fins refuses to deploy.)

Or, as you describe there, you could have drastically swept-back fins (i.e. almost straight back) simply extending back into the inner body tube of the first stage.

I suppose this could also work in a fashion to on the Saturn V, but once again you'd have the problem that these separated stages would look nothing whatsoever like the real vehicle did in flight, basically defeating the whole idea of a "model" and for all purposes just turning it into a whacky multistage cluster rocket.

[jflis]

That was my thought as well.

Anyone try 4 stages? And while their at it pop out a lunar module as well?

See my response above (#6)

Jim