Altimeters and Trackers. RF Interference question.

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bandman444

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Short and sweet.


I had an ejection charge go off in my face in October because my Garmin Astro GPS screwed with my Perfectflite MAWD.

I'v been told to wrap my altimeters in a Faraday Cage (foil, carbon fiber,etc...), to prevent the RFI.

My question is, How do people get away with impressive setups like below without "the cage"?










https://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk205/adamsona/Level 3/IMG_3074.jpg
 
The Garmin Astro uses a lot more radiated power than the Telemetrum shown in your example (4 watts compared to < 50 mW).
 
Hmmm...thats interesting. I just looked up that the beeline has around 100mW

So there must be the problem.

Do other trackers need to be worried about other trackers? Say a Garmin next to a Beeline? Or are they immune?
 
Hmmm...thats interesting. I just looked up that the beeline has around 100mW
https://www.bigredbee.com/faq.htm

The standard Beeline is 16 mW. The HP version, which is less common, is about 100 mW.

Radio receivers only see transmitters on the same frequency, so generally speaking systems on different frequencies are immune to each other. The Garmin Astro uses MURS, around 150 MHz. Beelines are 420-450 MHz, Com-spec around 220 MHz.

You can still have altimeter interference with low-power transmitters in some cases (IIRC the Featherweight Parrot could be interfered with by a Beeline) but I haven't had any problems with Com-spec.

Recall that the Garmin Astro was designed for dog tracking, and dogs are relatively immune to electromagnetic interference. :)
 
You are a ham?

ARRL Handbook. RFI pickup prevention, powersupply isolation/filterings, physical separation.

E-match ground test w/o BP.

Bob
 
I had an ejection charge go off in my face in October because my Garmin Astro GPS screwed with my Perfectflite MAWD.

I have to ask...

How do you know that the Garmin Astro caused the charge to fire? Have you set it up in an identical fashion, without the BP, and turned it on and had it behave the same way?

-Kevin
 
Short and sweet.


I had an ejection charge go off in my face in October because my Garmin Astro GPS screwed with my Perfectflite MAWD.

I'v been told to wrap my altimeters in a Faraday Cage (foil, carbon fiber,etc...), to prevent the RFI.

My question is, How do people get away with impressive setups like below without "the cage"?

Some altimeters are more susceptible than others. In my experience, accelerometers have been very immune to RF radiation. The pressure sensor setup I had on the old Parrot altimeters I used to make was sensitive to RF, because it had a separate amplifier off-chip. The Raven altimeter's baro pressure sensor has the whole analog chain on the chip, and it has proven to be immune to RF noise also. When a Raven is next to a Garmin, the only measurements that show the transmissions in the recorded data are the continuity voltage measurements and the temperature. Both of those are very slightly affected.

When I was trying to work around the RF issue with the Parrot, I found it very difficult and non-repeatable to make a significant improvement using a foil shield. In some configurations that seemed like it should help, it actually made it worse. I also had a charge go off in my face at the pad from the shield causing short to fire the deployment charge. If you have a susceptible altimeter, you really need distance to reliably avoid RF interference.
 
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Bdale wrote a great diagnostic piece at https://www.altusmetrum.org/News that will illustrate how complex this issue really is.
Voltage regulator input and output filter capacitors are always necessary to prevent oscillations in the requlator output. Been there, done that.

Separate transmitter and altimeter batteries to isolate the transmitter from the altimeter will also help eliminate backdoor RFI entry into the altimeter.

It also looks like the beeper needs to be acoustically/mechanically decoupled from the Altus circuit board as well, as I'm assuming the 1/2 Hz spikes picked up on the accelerometer and barometer are due the mechanical vibrations generated by the beeper. The RDAS Classic has a similar spurious signal artifact in its data.

Bob
 
You are a ham?

Bob

Yes I am. I wasn't at the time of the issue, but I don't remember a question on my technicians exam that struck me as answering my question.


I have to ask...

How do you know that the Garmin Astro caused the charge to fire? Have you set it up in an identical fashion, without the BP, and turned it on and had it behave the same way?

-Kevin

Actually yes. After I sent the altimeter to perfectflite they ran it through a number of tests and verified it worked fine. When I got it back I set it up with no charges at all and turned it on. Everything worked fine, then I brought in the Garmin (which had already been turned on and gained lock) and instantly when I got within 5ft the altimeter started freaking out. It would beep apogee, it would restart itself, error tones. The other thing that really shocked me was when it was off( still plugged in but switch wires undone) every 45seconds or so it would beep a low garbled tone.


Some altimeters are more susceptible than others. In my experience, accelerometers have been very immune to RF radiation. The pressure sensor setup I had on the old Parrot altimeters I used to make was sensitive to RF, because it had a separate amplifier off-chip. The Raven altimeter's baro pressure sensor has the whole analog chain on the chip, and it has proven to be immune to RF noise also. When a Raven is next to a Garmin, the only measurements that show the transmissions in the recorded data are the continuity voltage measurements and the temperature. Both of those are very slightly affected.

When I was trying to work around the RF issue with the Parrot, I found it very difficult and non-repeatable to make a significant improvement using a foil shield. In some configurations that seemed like it should help, it actually made it worse. I also had a charge go off in my face at the pad from the shield causing short to fire the deployment charge. If you have a susceptible altimeter, you really need distance to reliably avoid RF interference.

Yep. Distance will be my friend.

Bdale wrote a great diagnostic piece at https://www.altusmetrum.org/News that will illustrate how complex this issue really is.

I will read that tonight.



So is it right to assume that two trackers next to each other will work fine together? I guess my thinking is that trackers are immune to their own signal so they could be immune to others.

Thanks guys.
 
NO two trackers next to each other will not usually work fine.

RF transmissions can interfere with GPS chips locking onto satellites. So let's say that you had a Telemetrum next to a beeline GPS unit. When the TM transmits, it'll mess with the beeline's GPS chip and cause it to lose lock. When the beeline transmits, it will cause the TM to lose lock (and potentially fire ejection charges).

Also if they're in the same frequency band and they try to transmit together, you can get interference that way as well.

I would think you'd be OK with two radio beacons on two different bands, like a Walston and a beeline RF (~200 mhz vs ~440 mhz)
 
So is it right to assume that two trackers next to each other will work fine together?
It depends. If they use GPS you can get GPS interference as marsman noted, although I flew a Com-spec right next to a Venus-6-based 900 MHz GPS tracker with no issues to either. There is really no substitute for testing.
 
Short and sweet.


I had an ejection charge go off in my face in October because my Garmin Astro GPS screwed with my Perfectflite MAWD.

I'v been told to wrap my altimeters in a Faraday Cage (foil, carbon fiber,etc...), to prevent the RFI.

My question is, How do people get away with impressive setups like below without "the cage"?


https://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk205/adamsona/Level 3/IMG_3074.jpg

I use the garmin astro and perfectflites with no issue. where do you put the collar?
 
I haven't tried that, but I think that is a great suggestion. I think I will try that next time.

To be honest I never thought of doing it like that? *head bang*
 
I haven't tried that, but I think that is a great suggestion. I think I will try that next time.

To be honest I never thought of doing it like that? *head bang*

Did my discription work? Just as if you put a chute through a loop and then pull the chute back through the shroud line loops. Once the collar is one the chord, I fasten the collar like it was on the dog. You can also zip tie it if you would rather. Use 3-4 ties along the collar( no looping chord that way)
 
I'm not a ham, so forgive my naivete. I'd like to put a com-spec tracker and altimeter in a Gizmo, and there's not a lot of "far away" to work with. I'm looking at placing both inside the fin can, with access through the rear CR. They would go in separate compartments, i.e. between different pairs of fins.

Is there an issue with long ematch leads picking up RF from a tracker and feeding it into the altimeter through the pyro channels? If so, does it matter whether the ematch leads are parallel to the antenna?

Is there an issue with mounting the tracker on the motor mount with the antenna adjacent to and parallel to the motor casing?
 
NO two trackers next to each other will not usually work fine.

RF transmissions can interfere with GPS chips locking onto satellites. So let's say that you had a Telemetrum next to a beeline GPS unit. When the TM transmits, it'll mess with the beeline's GPS chip and cause it to lose lock. When the beeline transmits, it will cause the TM to lose lock (and potentially fire ejection charges).

Also if they're in the same frequency band and they try to transmit together, you can get interference that way as well.

I would think you'd be OK with two radio beacons on two different bands, like a Walston and a beeline RF (~200 mhz vs ~440 mhz)

Why would a TM or a Beeline (both on 70cm, which is 420-450MHz) transmitting interfere with reception of GPS satellite signals (which are at 1575 and 1227 MHz)? They really shouldn't even interfere with each other, so long as they are set to different frequencies within the 70cm band and reasonable precautions are taken (such as twisting the wires within the e-bay).
 
There is no such thing as immunity to RF interference.

When one transmits a signal, that signal does not exist only at that frequency. There will be attenuated signal peaks at harmonics of that frequency (multiples). There may also be many spurious peaks at other frequencies, which are a function of the circuit design and installation. Additionally, there isn't really a fequency (other than 0) at which one could say the power output is truly zero. It is extremely close to zero for most of the frequency range.

When one receives a signal, the receiver is not sensitive to only that one intended frequency. A receiver has a "passband" which is a (usually) narrow range of frequency over which it is essentially equally sensitive. A receiver tries to reject frequencies that are not in this band. As one scans frequency outside the passband (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passband), the sensitivity of a receiver drops off fairly rapidly. But it does not drop off to zero. It drops off to the level of sensitivity which is in the "stop band" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stopband) which may be only 50dB (dB -> decibel, or tenth of a Bel... this is a logarithmic measurement scale for signal strength and for power levels https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decibel) down from the pass band sensitivity, or even less, for cheap hobbiest and consumer level electronic circuitry. Really good receivers may be in the 100dB or higher rejection range. But that is still not perfect.

When one applies a signal that is outside the designed passband, a receiver will reject that signal to the extent that it can. If a receiver is receiving a signal at a level 'A', and is rejecting a signal at level 'B', B can give a stronger reception result than A if B is at a sufficiently higher level than A - enough to overcome the stop band rejection level.

Signal strength is a function of the distance between the transmitter antenna and the receiver and its antenna. The received power level drops off with the square of the distance. Distance is your friend!

Orientation matters as well. If a simple transmit antenna is oriented at 90 degrees to a simple receive antenna, this will substantially reduce the received signal, due to the difference in polarization.

But in the near field, where transmitter and receiver are within a few wavelengths of each other, things get more complex. When they are very close to each other, they can couple fairly strongly. A transformer would be an example of such coupling being used as a feature.

One should be careful of how one defines a transmitter and a receiver.

A transmitter is nothing more than something putting an RF (radio frequency) signal over a wire. That wire can be a circuit trace on a board.

A receiver is nothing more than a wire connected to something capable of dealing with signals. Again, that can be a circuit trace on a board.

So, there are many places in a circuit which can transmit RF, likely at many different frequencies and likely with many different signal characteristics. There are many places in a circuit which can receive RF, again with many different reception characteristics.

For receivers, places which contain amplifiers in a circuit are possibly the biggest risk.

Portions of a receiver circuit can transmit; portions of a transmitter circuit can receive.

You can try putting the electronics in a Faraday cage, but a transmitter or a receiver has to have an antenna outside the cage. Even for non- transmitters and receivers, you may need access for power, and for altimeters, there needs to be an air hole or a barometric sensor won't work (not via trivial designs, that is, but there are ways such as a metallic diaphram to transfer pressure while maintaining the cage, over some moderate pressure range). One could put the altimeter with its battery in a Mu metal box (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mu-metal) to shield against RF and magnetic fields (another way to transfer signals in the near field). One would have to do the engineering for transfer of pressure and control of on-off function.

I hope this helps reduce confusion rather than add to it. For those who know what I'm talking about, please pardon me for trying to avoid most any technical term, to hopefully not lose readers.

Gerald (KE4ET)
 
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I was afraid of interference with the Astro from the time I bought it.
I just put it in the Nose Cone.....



JD
 
I just got an Astro and flew it for the first time. I put it in the nosecone and the flight went great, using two stratologgers for recovery. I did a test where i put my astro right next to the altimeter bay and simulated a flight. Everything on the SL100's looked fine on the data download. Maybe the MAWD is particularly vulnerable to the Astro - I couldn't get the stratologgers to freak out.
 
COrocket said:
I just got an Astro and flew it for the first time. I put it in the nosecone and the flight went great, using two stratologgers for recovery. I did a test where i put my astro right next to the altimeter bay and simulated a flight. Everything on the SL100's looked fine on the data download. Maybe the MAWD is particularly vulnerable to the Astro - I couldn't get the stratologgers to freak out.

I had the most trouble during the startup sequence.

It is true that I haven't had problem with a Stratologger, and it sat next a raven that went screwy.

It works well though doesn't it. :)
 
G_T nailed it on the head. Nicely done!!!

When purchasing my BRB beacon Greg from BRB recommended the 70 cm version over the higher powered unit due to my rocket also flying deployment electronics. Lower powered RF transmit signal = lower chance of deployment electronics issues.
 
I had the most trouble during the startup sequence.

It is true that I haven't had problem with a Stratologger, and it sat next a raven that went screwy.

It works well though doesn't it. :)

Yeah my favorite part is how clean the interface on the handheld unit is. The screen just gives a compass arrow pointing to the rocket and a distance. Really nice.
 

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