Source to Identify old Estes Motors?

[Steve Fitton]

Can somebody help me out with a link to a source or thread for identifying old (mid 1960s) Estes motors? I came across about 30 tubes today of the Estes motors in the round blue tubes that predate the diamond packs. But what is confusing me are a bunch of other motors with designations like B3, and short cased motors, and motors that don't seem to be either centuri or Estes. I don't mind digging to see what I've got and how best to use them, but I'm hoping somebody can point me to a thread or link that has a relatively cohesive history of the older stuff so I can figure it out.

Thanks,
Steve

TRA 1458

[Blakkzakk]

I forgot where I got this but here's a file I have on one of my jump drives.

[JStarStar]

Can somebody help me out with a link to a source or thread for identifying old (mid 1960s) Estes motors? I came across about 30 tubes today of the Estes motors in the round blue tubes that predate the diamond packs. But what is confusing me are a bunch of other motors with designations like B3, and short cased motors, and motors that don't seem to be either centuri or Estes. I don't mind digging to see what I've got and how best to use them, but I'm hoping somebody can point me to a thread or link that has a relatively cohesive history of the older stuff so I can figure it out.

Thanks,
Steve

TRA 1458

The B3's are relics from the days before the NAR switched to metric standards for motor classification (1968 IIRC).

The B3 became the B14. Essentially the same motor, just labeled differently.

1/2 A.8's, B.8's and C.8's became 1/2A6's, B6's and C6's.

For some reason the A.8's were translated directly across as A8's.

The S-series motors (1.75" long vs. 2.75 for "normal" motors) were offered until about 1971, IIRC, when they were replaced by the 13mm motors.

Centuri motors were mostly produced by Estes so there is usually little substantive difference other than label printing.

I too came across a healthy stash of vintage motors (early 1970s, so a few years newer than yours) a couple years or so ago, and I bought up a carton of them -- 200 or so motors.

I've used a dozen or so and they have worked fine -- I have not had a CATO on any of them and their performance has seemed to be in line with their designations.

I suppose I ought to salt them away as "collector's items," but I figure, what the hell, if I feel like flying them, I might as well fly them.

[Bazookadale]

Check out any catalog 1967 or earlier for specs on these old motors http://www.ninfinger.org/rockets/cat...7/67est44.html

The B3's are relics from the days before the NAR switched to metric standards for motor classification (1968 IIRC).

The B3 became the B14. Essentially the same motor, just labeled differently.

1/2 A.8's, B.8's and C.8's became 1/2A6's, B6's and C6's.

For some reason the A.8's were translated directly across as A8's.

Concurrent with the change to metric Estes was converting to the thin wall casings in use now. The C.8-0 ( not available with delays because the propellant filled the old thick wall casing) was definitely not the same as the current C6 series. At first they offered both an A5 and A8 to replace the old A.8 - I don't remember which was the old thick wall and which was the new thin walled casing

[StefanJ]

The A5-x and B4-x are the closest match to the A.8-x and B.8-x.

There were some other companies, pretty obscure today, that sold Estes relabled motors.

It would be really cool to see pictures of the motors, and scans of the instructions. They probably came with nichrome to make "coil" igniters.

[Steve Fitton]

The A5-x and B4-x are the closest match to the A.8-x and B.8-x.

There were some other companies, pretty obscure today, that sold Estes relabled motors.

It would be really cool to see pictures of the motors, and scans of the instructions. They probably came with nichrome to make "coil" igniters.

I may take some pictures of the loose motors tonight and put them up. Its neat seeing some of the old stuff in person. My earliest memories of Estes motors is the blue diamond tubes, and I think Centuri (or Cox?) came in a box like a cigarette pack? This stuff all seems older than that.

I had wanted to make sure, too, that the designations were about the same, that a B6-4, etc would have roughly the same performance. I just wish the batch had some C5-3s for my Outlander.

[shreadvector]

The A.8 has a super thick casing and the A5 was the metric version.

The A8 used the thin walled casing (like our modern A8, B6 and C6)

The A5 and B4 used a thick walled casing and the B4 was re-engineered when the thick walled casings went away. The A5 was dropped since the mini motors did the same job. As a matter of fact, the mini motors have the same inside diameter as the old thick walled motors and the mini motors fit exactly inside the new thin walled 18mm motor tubes.

The B3's are relics from the days before the NAR switched to metric standards for motor classification (1968 IIRC).

The B3 became the B14. Essentially the same motor, just labeled differently.

1/2 A.8's, B.8's and C.8's became 1/2A6's, B6's and C6's.

For some reason the A.8's were translated directly across as A8's.

The S-series motors (1.75" long vs. 2.75 for "normal" motors) were offered until about 1971, IIRC, when they were replaced by the 13mm motors.

Centuri motors were mostly produced by Estes so there is usually little substantive difference other than label printing.

I too came across a healthy stash of vintage motors (early 1970s, so a few years newer than yours) a couple years or so ago, and I bought up a carton of them -- 200 or so motors.

I've used a dozen or so and they have worked fine -- I have not had a CATO on any of them and their performance has seemed to be in line with their designations.

I suppose I ought to salt them away as "collector's items," but I figure, what the hell, if I feel like flying them, I might as well fly them.

[Steve Fitton]

Some pictures; I have a couple more to load after this.

[Steve Fitton]

A couple more pictures. The models, including the Scout came with the motors. I would have liked to have met the original builder of the kits, because he was a skilled craftsman. On the Scout for example the finished model looks like it is molded from one piece of glass, much better than my crude skills.I thought it was interesting to compare it to my Semroc Golden Scout, which if I remember right was of an earlier version of the Scout than the Astron kit version.

Most of the short motors are still in the blue tubes. The tubes are sealed (glued?) shut. Were motors mailed that way in the '60s?

[shreadvector]

MRI became MPC's Model Rocket division. They also had the original thickwalled motors as well as the newer thin walled motors. They had A3 and B3 metric motors in the thick wall. Nearly identical motors to those used in the Zenith Fireworks rocket that used the same fin unit as the Dirty Bird III.

http://www.spacemodeling.org/JimZ/mrn/mrnbo12o.jpg

[RoyAtl]

The B3's are relics from the days before the NAR switched to metric standards for motor classification (1968 IIRC).

The B3 became the B14. Essentially the same motor, just labeled differently.

1/2 A.8's, B.8's and C.8's became 1/2A6's, B6's and C6's.

For some reason the A.8's were translated directly across as A8's.

Correct on the B14, but the A.8 became the A5, and the B.8 is more equivalent to the B4, and the C.8 has no real equivalent. The A8, B6, and C6 were essentially new motors, with the C6 having about 50% more power than the C.8 (not to mention having a delay and ejection charge! The C.8 came only as a booster).

The 1/2A.8 actually had about 20% more power than the new 1/2A6, due to the realignment of the power classes in the switch to metric.

[RoyAtl]

Most of the short motors are still in the blue tubes. The tubes are sealed (glued?) shut. Were motors mailed that way in the '60s?

yep. Back then you could order as little as a single motor from Estes. They would drop one in a tube, put a couple of fake casings in there to take up the rest of the slack, pop a mailing label and a pitney-bowes metered-stamp on it and you'd have it in, oh, a week or three! If you ordered a bunch of motors, you might get a bundle of the blue tubes with one or two of those thick rubber bands holding the bundle together.

[StefanJ]

That's a very nice haul of motors.

These are all collectible. If you can work out legal delivery you could make some money to buy new motors with!

The only ones I'd be tempted to use are the B14s . . . well, any B14-0s.

[Steve Fitton]

yep. Back then you could order as little as a single motor from Estes. They would drop one in a tube, put a couple of fake casings in there to take up the rest of the slack, pop a mailing label and a pitney-bowes metered-stamp on it and you'd have it in, oh, a week or three! If you ordered a bunch of motors, you might get a bundle of the blue tubes with one or two of those thick rubber bands holding the bundle together.

Some of the tubes have a third class postage stamping on them. I thought that was a bit optimistic for stuff to actually get delivered, but maybe the mail worked differently in the 60s(!)

[Steve Fitton]

That's a very nice haul of motors.

These are all collectible. If you can work out legal delivery you could make some money to buy new motors with!

The only ones I'd be tempted to use are the B14s . . . well, any B14-0s.

Yeah, with todays shipping regs connecting motors with collectors isn't really possible. It wasn't really the intent when I bought the stuff, because my personal feeling is that buying "vintage" hobby stuff to make a big buck is much harder than it is worth.I don't really go to big launches since I fly model plane aerobatics as my main hobby, so its not like I could go around and hawk the stuff. I'll use a fair amount of the motors, especially the B14-0s (and there are alot of them!), but not any time soon-I have a few hundred plain jane modern engines floating around I can burn first.
One of the reasons for posting was not so much to tally potential dollar signs as much as figure out designations I had never heard of and to make sure that there wasn't something super rare that would have been a crime to use up like any other motor.
I'll save some of the stuff in case I ever run across in person somebody who collects and needs something for their collection.

I've learned alot about the older stuff in just a few days after running into this stuff. Thanks everybody for all the information. When it warms up I can post how some of the engines fly!

[Thermo]

I forgot where I got this but here's a file I have on one of my jump drives.

Here ya go:

http://www.rocketshoppe.com/info/Cent-Est-lin.pdf

I stumbled across this yesterday. Last weekend I bought a bunch of older motors for roughly $1 each from a member of my club. The Estes B8-5 pack is at least 14 years old, according to that document. I wonder if they'll fly...something to do next weekend if I get tired of doing my taxes.

[JStarStar]

Here ya go:

http://www.rocketshoppe.com/info/Cent-Est-lin.pdf

I stumbled across this yesterday. Last weekend I bought a bunch of older motors for roughly $1 each from a member of my club. The Estes B8-5 pack is at least 14 years old, according to that document. I wonder if they'll fly...something to do next weekend if I get tired of doing my taxes.

They should fly fine, unless they've been exposed to a lot of water or really serious heat cycling, and odds are pretty good you'd have no way of knowing for sure either way (most real old model rocket motors don't have 'certificates of storage conditions' to certify they have been kept in cool dry humidity-controlled environments. ).

As I noted in my post above, I have a pretty big stash of motors -- a whole carton -- which are approaching 40 years old, and I've launched a couple dozen of them with no anomalies I've been able to notice.

[Thermo]

..., and I've launched a couple dozen of them with no anomalies I've been able to notice.

Cool, thanks!

Come to think of it, I had some recent good luck, maybe it's relatively common, with "old" motors. I had a pack of B's that I had opened in 2009 and kept in a box in the garage, exposed it to maybe 80 degree highs and 20 degree lows, plus lots of humidity, but this abuse lasted only 2 years.

Thanksgiving 2011 I flew the two unused motors--they ignited and flew perfectly. Hooray for black powder.

[Steve Fitton]

Flew two of the old motors yesterday. An old A5-3 had a delay failure where the ejection charge blew right at burnout. The ancient Alpha it was in had some paint shaken off the body tube right where the top of the motor tube ended, but no other damage. The other motor was a 1968 vintage Estes B6-4 which functioned flawlessly. It seemed to have *much* greater impluse than a modern B6-4 flown in the same model a few minutes before. The difference makes me wonder if I might test one of the C6s in my Outlander, which certainly could use some excess performance.
The pic is my Semroc Vega zipping out of frame on that old B6

[bjphoenix]

Some of the tubes have a third class postage stamping on them. I thought that was a bit optimistic for stuff to actually get delivered, but maybe the mail worked differently in the 60s(!)

When I began with rockets about 45 years ago, we would save up our quarters and so forth and order stuff. We would put a bunch of change in an envelope and order a few dollars worth of stuff, somewhere around a dollar IIRC for 3 motors. They would mail it back to us. I think it took about a week or so to get our stuff back. If you ordered a bunch of tubes and nose cones and such along with motors, they would put it all in a long box along with 3 of the motors, and send the rest of the motors in separate tubes. Back then the tubes were dark red. I have a few motors left here somewhere, but I gave some motors and other stuff away to collectors at a NARAM about 10-12 years ago.