Cloning the Estes Starship Vega: Rose colored memories

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Sorry about the false start. My wife came home and needed some help scanning stuff relating to starting a new job. That got priority for a little while!

OK, on to the build thread.

I've had three rocketry phases in my life: When I was a little guy in camp, again in high school, and now as an adult just about to enter midlife crisis mode.

From my earlier phases in rocketry (30+ years ago!), two rockets survive. A Nike Ajax and a Starship Vega. My Vega is pictured here:

Vintage Starship Vega.jpg

After a few launches, apparently non-destructive, it spent 20 years on a shelf in my childhood room. Eventually my parents moved, and I packed it up and put it into a plastic box with packing paper support, and it sat in my basement for another 5 years. Then finally I started up with rocketry again and took it out.

I replaced the shock cord (which was in fragments) and launched it a couple more times. Then my wife put my range box on top of it in the trunk. :bangpan: :evil: I was able to massage it back into shape; the damage was not severe, but I've basically retired it.

The astute observers on the forum will note that the rocket pictured is not KC-4 model but actually the number 1320 revised version from the early 1980s. This is a bit of a cheaper model that doesn't include nose cones on the fins. Instead, there were decals to be placed where the cones would be... I didn't understand the concept and put them on wrong, sort of bridging the fin to the strut pods.

This is where the rose colored memories come in. I recall very clearly those decals over the fin pods, but in my mind this model always had nose cones there, even when I was a kid and didn't know of the existence of the earlier KC-4 kit.

So it is time to build a new one, that will be part of my active fleet. This one will be the much nicer looking one with nose cones on the fins.
 
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My adult BAR phase started in the spring of 2010; I found TRF and YORF shortly after that. And so, it begins.

By that fall of 2010, I had found Excelsior for decals. In an order to Gordy I had him include the decal set for the Starship Vega. He did a beautiful job. Pictures will be forthcoming of the set.

But other things took precedence. The project sat for a while I learned, honed my skills, and plotted.

I gradually began building my own non-kit rockets, and became comfortable with the process. SEMROC became my friend and I found the JimZ plans site.

Though I had planned to "scratch build" (using existing components) this bird, including the fins, the urge to buy the precut fins from SEMROC was too great. I placed an order for the fins and cone early last spring (2011).

In a twist of fate, the SEMROC number for the Starship Vega finset was very similar to one for the Vigilante finset, and SEMROC mis-shipped me the Vigilante fins instead. This lead to a distraction from the Vega project as I researched and built the Vigilante. If you haven't built one, you gotta. It's a classic two-stager. I did it up in yellow and black per the classic style, and it's a favorite of mine, though beat up from some hard landings.

Of course the good folks at SEMROC sent me the correct finset promptly, but my flighty interest had moved on, taking a while to return to the Vega project.

I've gradually collected most of what I need. I think I'm just a few dowels away from having it all, so I'll get started.

Tomorrow, if time allows, I'll spread out the components and begin the build. I'll document the build here. There may be a few changes (upgrades!) but it will be a pretty faithful rendition of the Starship Vega, as my rose colored memories say it must be, complete with fin-cones.

With every build, I set some goals, aside from just having fun. What I want to work on here is getting the fins on nice and straight and at the right angles and such, and properly finishing the fillets and joints between the cones and the fins, better than I usually do. I want this to be a kicking rocket.

I'm not planning on doing anything special paint-wise. I've been learning with acrylics recently, which has been great fun and a good cold-weather inside painting opportunity, but I expect I'll just break out the white lacquer for the Vega. She's monotone white except for the decals.

Wish me luck. I'm really quite excited about this build! :D

Marc
 
Marc - I'm really looking forward to following your build! You always post interesting stuff and I've learned a lot from you and all the other experienced modellers on TRF.

The hobby shop I frequented as a kid in the '70s had a nicely-finished Starship Vega hanging from the ceiling. I always thought - someday... Even my brother, who built tons more rockets than me, never got around to building one. Then, as now, my rocket collection consisted mostly of simple, sturdy rockets that flew well and didn't get easily damaged. My goal this year is to branch out into some more complex and skill-intensive builds.

So I can't wait to see how your Starship Vega takes shape. It's already reminding me of all those well-thumbed Estes catalogs I had as a kid.
 
Dean- Thanks for the compliments! I hope the build will be interesting!

I've got most of the parts collected. Here's the spread, with SEMROC part labels still on lots of them:

Starship Vega  004.jpg

You will notice there are no recovery components yet, other than the kevlar cord and a pair of steel fishing leaders; not sure which size leader will be best yet. I think the parachute from my original Vega is OK still (I re-rigged the cords when I took it out of storage); maybe I will use it in this bird.

I haven't obtained nose weights yet. What weight is NCW-1? There are two of them in the kit.

Under the instructions on the right you will see some decals peeking out. I bought these from Gordy at Excelsior. Here is a detail shot:

Starship Vega  001.jpg

It comes with a foil wrap. Somehow Gordy made a shiny foil wrap with black detail. It's nice and reflective. Close up:

Starship Vega  002.jpg

These are top notch, beautiful decals. Vibrant colors.

The nose cones from SEMROC are the usual top quality cones, very nice.

The body tube (BT-50) and fin pod tubes (BT-5) need to be cut. I've got stock from BMS and I think BRS for the BT-5.
 
NCW-1 = 0.12oz(3.4g) according to my '74 estes cat. :).
rex
 
Go Marc! I have always loved the Starship Vega. Had the Citation version years ago, and recently completed construction of the QModeling version. Have a 3" version in my Open Rocket files that I hope to build this summer, imagine BT60 landing pods... :cool:
 
OK, the build commences.

Decisions, decisions, decisions...

The Starship Vega is a pretty simple rocket, to which a few flourishes have been added. The canard fins and the small fins in between the main fins give it some visual distinction, and the fin-pods with landing struts give real character that define the model (at least in my eyes).

But for a simple model, there are plenty of decisions to make.

The first is: what are my plans for engines? I have succumbed on other models to chucking the 18mm mount and replacing with a 24 mm mount (minimum diameter, for Starship Vega), to allow for use of C11/D12/E9 engines (or Aerotech SU E engines, or...).

But the Vega isn't one I want to cram a D or E in and send to the sky-gods. It's a great fun performer on B and C engines. Altitude is not the goal of this one... it's a visible "ooooh.... ahhhh" flight. My first real decision in the build is that I'm going with the stock mount per the original instructions. (And if an Aerotech SU D slips into the mount accidentally, once in a while, it's not my fault...).

I noticed that the motor tube shown in the parts spread (standard 2.5" BT-20) doesn't actually match the KC-4 instructions, which call for a 3.5" mount tube. Why it calls for the longer tube, I don't really know. But my goal is to faithfully reproduce the model (exception: shock cord mounting), so it gets a 3.5" mount.

As luck would have it, I had a piece of BT-20 laying around that would do the trick with just a quick trim. The trimmed off piece could be put to good purpose too.

I made a circle on the tube, using a centering ring as a guide:

Starship Vega  005.jpg

Next I used my handy-dandy tube cutter. I forget who I borrowed the design from, but I found the idea on this forum and I thank whoever claims the design.

Starship Vega  007.jpg

I didn't align the tube quite perfectly, but I don't think the 1/32" off matters:

Starship Vega  009.jpg

Notice the engine casing in there... supporting the tube from the inside while cutting is pretty important for these small diameter tubes, making for a nice clean cut because you can push harder against the razor blade while rotating.
 
I don't think I need to belabor the assembly of a motor mount for the assembled forum denizens here, but there is an important feature of the way I'm putting it together.

I will be using a steel leader (from the fishing section at Walmart) as the shock cord mount. The leader will be wrapped around the motor mount tube, and I want the area where it will be pulled taught at ejection to have solid support under it. I'll make sure to build the mount to maximize the support where the leader wraps.

Beginning with the tube with the motor hook:

Starship Vega  010.jpg

Note the (used) engine casing is in there. I generally leave the casing in, and using a q-tip, slather a liberal coat of Titebond II inside the top of the motor tube where the thrust ring will be. The casing acts as a stop/mask/guide for applying the glue. No such thing as too much glue in this operation.

Then I stick the thrust block in and push it down quickly with another old casing until it mates with the first casing. Nice and perfect alignment, and extra glue pushed by the thrust ring insertion flows into the original engine casing. Pull out the casings (fore one first, then the main one), and the thrust ring is in perfect position, with a protective coating of glue on the part of the motor tube fore of the thrust ring, and I never have any problematic glue residue aft of the thrust ring that would interfere with motor insertion.

Here's a pic after I took a q-tip and made sure there was a bit of a fillet fore of the thrust ring, before removing the other casing.

Starship Vega  012.jpg

I set it aside to dry for an hour before doing anything else with it.

Time passes, and eventually I slide on the fore centering ring making sure a nice wet coat of Titebond II is in place. Then I clean off excess and put a fillet on the forward side of the ring. Here's a picture... Notice how the centering ring is a couple millimeters ABOVE the motor hook insertion point, so that it is basically halfway above the thrust ring inside the tube:

Starship Vega  014.jpg

I want the area right under the centering ring to have some of the thrust ring supporting it internally, because this is a cinch point for the steel leader. I had one rocket ruined when the engine accidentally blew out of the motor mount somehow, and the leader sliced through the empty, unsupported motor tube. By making sure the thrust block is under the cinch point, this scenario is eliminated.

For added support, I use the scrap left over from the tube cutting before in place of the ring that holds the motor hook on. I don't have any of those rings, but just by slicing the side of the scrap of tube, slipping it over the motor mount, and making sure it is liberally glued on, I've got a solid layer of support there:

Starship Vega  015.jpg

And here's the back, showing the slice that allows it to be slipped over the mount:

Starship Vega  016.jpg

I let it dry overnight.
 
A note about glue:

I use Titebond II for these operations. It doesn't shrink much when drying, so doesn't create the coke-bottle effect. I used to use regular Elmers Carpenters' Wood Glue, and found that it causes tight points due to shrinking while drying.

I like the ECWG for gluing on fins... I use nothing else for fin attachment! But for centering rings and thrust rings and the like, it's Titebond II all the way in my shop.
 
I will be using a steel leader (from the fishing section at Walmart) as the shock cord mount. The leader will be wrapped around the motor mount tube, and I want the area where it will be pulled taught at ejection to have solid support under it. I'll make sure to build the mount to maximize the support where the leader wraps.

I let it dry overnight.


Good idea. I like it! :wink:
 
I eventually glued on the bottom centering ring after cutting out a section of it to allow for travel of the motor hook:

Starship Vega  018.jpg

Then I cut a slot in the forward centering ring, and wrapped the steel leader around the tube, having first threaded the needle so to speak by passing the leader through one of it's own end loops. I did a second pass around the tube, pulled it taught, and fitted everything into place:

Starship Vega  020.jpg
 
I also used some thin CA (from Hobby Lobby, if anyone cares...) and soaked the inside of the motor mount to strengthen it. I also wicked some CA into the forward edge of the mount (remember, the inside up there is coated in Titebond II) and it sucked through, filling the fibers and strengthening them.

The completed mount with shock cord anchor weighs in at 6.6 grams, which is a tad on the heavy side. Usually they come in around 5.2 or so for me. The extra weight comes from the steel mount (0.7 g) plus the extra length of mount tube, plus the weighty sleeve I used. I also was a bit liberal with the CA, though that's a minor component.

I test fit the mount into the BT-50 body tube:

Starship Vega  022.jpg

I needed to adjust the aft centering ring a bit: one of the edges near the cuts I made was jutting out a bit. I probably should have clamped it down while it dried. A sharp hobby knife made quick work of it:

Starship Vega  023.jpg

Proper fit was restored. See the leader was pulled back through the mount... eventually I will attach kevlar to the loop and send it back through, after the mount is glued into the body tube.

Now, you'll notice the body tube in the first pic is a bit longer than the 12.7" tube needed.

I'm not doing a super-stretch version of the Starship Vega, so instead I will cut the required size of tube off the stock, using the tube cutter shown earlier in this thread. I will support the tube inside using a spent 24mm casing, and will also put another casing into the tube where it butts up against the tube stop in the cutter, so that I don't damage the end of the tube during cutting.
 
OK, I've got the body tube cut (12.7 inches of BT-50), and I used CA treatment on the forward end for an inch and a half on the inside to get it good and stiff. I used to think this was silly but I've tried it and had excellent resilience to core sample damage.

Now I'm running out of stalling tactics. There are lots of decisions to be made:

1. How will I put the fins on? Estes attachment guide? Bevel fin guide? Make my own to get them on a bit more straight than the Estes one tends to...

2. How and when should I seal / fill the fins?

3. Do I bevel the fins, and if so which ones and to what aspect? (instructions say to sand the main fin leading edge round, and the canard fin leading and trailing edges round).

4. Do I put the fin pods on first before attaching to the body tube or after?

5. Do I install the motor mount first, then attach fins, or the other way around. Having the mount in there makes sure the tube will be fully circular when I put the fins on. But, the thrust block can inhibit mounting on the jig if I want to support the rocket over a longer distance from inside.

I've been using the Estes fin guide for a fair number of rockets lately, and have kind of preferred it to my beveled fin jig because my homemade jib is good but not a precision instrument. It gets fins on 100% straight as aligned to the body tube, but I don't always the fins on at exactly 120 degrees to each other. The Estes jig gets the fins on at exactly 120 degrees, but the vertical supports are a bit weak and flex back and forth, so the fins are typically not perfectly straight. It also won't help with getting the canard fins on just right compared to the main fins.
 

1. How will I put the fins on? Estes attachment guide? Bevel fin guide? Make my own to get them on a bit more straight than the Estes one tends to...

Eyeball it... it works for me. :D Honest. I never use a jig and my rockets fly damn straight. 53 year old eyeballs at that (well 53 in 13 more days). :rolleyes:

2. How and when should I seal / fill the fins?

Go for the full youth experience. Multiple coats of sanding sealer. :D :D Okay okay I am not being helpful... :blush: But barring that, what's your goto method? Why wouldn't you use the method you've had the best luck with? Label paper is really nice. But might be heavier than sealer or good ole FnF.


3. Do I bevel the fins, and if so which ones and to what aspect? (instructions say to sand the main fin leading edge round, and the canard fin leading and trailing edges round).

That would be my strategy. What's to be gained by beveling? Coolness?

4. Do I put the fin pods on first before attaching to the body tube or after?

Before. If you mess something up, you are not trying to tear/slice a fin off the body tube. JMO. :eyeroll:

5. Do I install the motor mount first, then attach fins, or the other way around. Having the mount in there makes sure the tube will be fully circular when I put the fins on. But, the thrust block can inhibit mounting on the jig if I want to support the rocket over a longer distance from inside.
:confused2::confused2::confused2: Helpful aye? :(

 
So I'm considering designing and building a new fin attachment tool based generally on the Estes one bit with improved vertical accuracy. Or an alternative one based on the beveled jig style... I've got ideas either way.

For sealing the balsa fins, I usually these days brush on some thin CA, and then fill with spot putty. But that adds considerable weight, and on this rocket the fins are large compared to the rocket, so I'm concerned the added weight will require a lot of nose weight, and mess up performance to the extent even I would notice.

I'm still thinking about it, but my wonderful wife just brought me cookies! :wink:

Later guys!
 
I've been using the Estes fin guide for a fair number of rockets lately, and have kind of preferred it to my beveled fin jig because my homemade jib is good but not a precision instrument. It gets fins on 100% straight as aligned to the body tube, but I don't always the fins on at exactly 120 degrees to each other. The Estes jig gets the fins on at exactly 120 degrees, but the vertical supports are a bit weak and flex back and forth, so the fins are typically not perfectly straight. It also won't help with getting the canard fins on just right compared to the main fins.


Hang a string, plume bob style from the ceiling. Make six marks 60 degrees apart on the body tube. On a level surface, align one fin and the opposing mark with the string which is hanging straight up and down across the rear end of the tube and fin. Get close, but do not let string touch the rear of the tube and fin.
 
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A note about glue:

I use Titebond II for these operations. It doesn't shrink much when drying, so doesn't create the coke-bottle effect. I used to use regular Elmers Carpenters' Wood Glue, and found that it causes tight points due to shrinking while drying.

I like the ECWG for gluing on fins... I use nothing else for fin attachment! But for centering rings and thrust rings and the like, it's Titebond II all the way in my shop.
Okay, you sold me. I've resisted Titebond II figuring Elmer's CWG was the stuff. Love it for fins (with Titebond T&M for fillets), but I'd gone to epoxy for mounts. I'll try a bottle.

I see how it is. You and bradycros sat around with tots and suds and this is how it ended up. Nobody invites me anymore. But, I'll try that technique too. Good thread Marc.
 
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When using Titebond II internally, use A LOT. That's the secret. And since it doesn't shrink much, there's no harm.

Though I like how these leader-mounts turn out, I don't think I can claim to be in the same league as Bradycros regarding motor mounts. His lovingly crafted, multi-layer, no-pinch-point-to-catch-kevlar mounts are works of art.

OK, I'm off to Lowes to see if I can find some bits to build a new fit attachment guide. I may come back empty handed... I've got ideas but I'm not sure exactly what I will find that fits, without a lot of crafting involved.
 
Ok, this build goes on brief hold.

I'm building a new fin attachment guide. I will make a separate thread for it, in Techniques, when I'm ready to move forward with showing it.

I got the base done today in my free time, but now it's dinner, laundry, kid stuff for a while.

Stay tuned!

Marc
 
Hang a string, plum bob style from the ceiling. Make six marks 60 degrees apart on the body tube. On a level surface, align one fin and the opposing mark with the string which is hanging straight up and down across the rear end of the tube and fin. Get close, but do not let string touch the rear of the tube and fin.


Yes? No? Don't get it :confused:!
 
Hang a string, plum bob style from the ceiling. Make six marks 60 degrees apart on the body tube. On a level surface, align one fin and the opposing mark with the string which is hanging straight up and down across the rear end of the tube and fin. Get close, but do not let string touch the rear of the tube and fin.

Yes? No? Don't get it :confused:!

Sorry. Meant to respond to this earlier but didn't get to it.

This would be a fine way to do it if I could be assured of having a level surface with respect to gravity to start from. I could make a platform with little leveling feet and accomplish it... but the chance I would routinely get it right is slim. I need a more robust (read: careless-proof) solution.

I'm halfway through making what I believe will be a very serviceable fin guide for 3 / 4 fin rockets with support for things like the canard fins on the Vega. I'll post the finished product in Techniques once I get 'er done.
 
While working on my fin gluing guide (FGG), I've made some decisions:

The fins will not be beveled, rounded or shaped. I will make sure they are good a and square. The reason for this is that when I look at the Starship Vega, what my eye sees are somewhat harsh angles. Rounded fins just don't fit in my mind's eye of the model.

I've decided to lightly seal with CA despite risk of added weight. I like the hardening effect. I'll just counter with nose weight as needed to get stability. After sealing with CA, I'll see if the CWF does OK filling (instead of spot putty). CWF is lighter than putty so might be a better choice if I'm concerned about weight/balance.

Order of operations:
1. Sand fins and ensure the pod nose cones fit properly
2. First coat of Elmer's Carpenter's Wood Glue on the root edges and where the cones will attach; let soak in and dry.
3. CA Seal
4. Fill / sand smooth
5. Attach first the intermediate small fins on the bottom, then do the main fins & canard fins (main and canard fins are on the same line).

But I have to finish the guide first!

Marc
 
These tools have proven themselves to be useful over a very long period of time! :D

image_16258.jpg

image_16471.jpg

image_16373.jpg

300px-All_Gizah_Pyramids.jpg
 
OMG!

That middle one is awesome! A strip of metal with markings at uniform spacing along it! Why didn't I ever think of that before? :eek:

Hee hee! :tongue:

The problem I have is applying macro tools to mini situations. But the FGG is coming along. I'll document it probably later this week. I got far enough along tonight to scrap one aspect of it in favor of a different implementation that will be more robust.

Tomorrow being Valentine's day, and me being married and all, I probably won't post much until later in the week. :wink:
 
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