Help with Dr. Zooch Saturn V and F1 Engines

[GuyNoir]

I'm almost done with my Dr. Zooch Saturn V, but need some help on the exhaust manifolds. The instructions talk about using "FGP" or funky glue putty, made from partially dried Titebond. I didn't like the looks of that, and my second attempt with tissue glue putty wasn't any better.

Anyone out there have some ideas about how to build these puppies?

For those who have this kit, what worked for you when you did the build?

[rosko_racer]

When I built mine I thought that was weird. But I practiced the technique about three times until I was confortable with it. Once they dry they do not look bad, specially from an "ant scale" perspective. Give the "test ones" a coat of silver or chrome paint then decide. I do not have good pictures of my SatV, it was my first BAR rocket and at the time I was not good at posting pictures.

When I was building mine, I messed up one of the wraps and I re-drew it using a graphics program. I also did not wanted to paint the big black stripes because it would not match the black color on the wraps. Printing them was the only solution for me. I drew the black stripes using Power Point and printed them on paper to put on the lower first stage area.

I also built the Sat 1B and re-drew all the wraps. Of course, I consulted with the good ole doc on this. I have made them available to whom ever wants a soft copy. These have been fairly popular since then. I only charge 3,456,789,012 Ant Credits per copy If you are interested send me a PM with an email and I will send you the copies.

[Saluki]

I agree I have always had trouble with the engines. I have been working off and on some resin replacements. They are not quite Saturn engine bell but they look close. The weight might affect the flight but not much. Just have to wait and see.

[luke strawwalker]

If you're just determined not to use the FGP method or want to try something different, your best bet would probably be to use 'fix it epoxy clay' from Apogee Components to make the parts.

Hope this helps! OL JR

[jj94]

What exactly is an exhaust manifold?

[foose4string]

What exactly is an exhaust manifold?

Are you asking what does it do, or what does it look like on the Saturn V F1 engine?

[jj94]

Are you asking what does it do, or what does it look like on the Saturn V F1 engine?

Thanks foose. I just wanted to know what it looked like.

Mark, do you think that you can use yarn soaked with a bit of glue?

[luke strawwalker]

What exactly is an exhaust manifold?

He's referring to the tapered toroidal ring around the midpoint of the F-1 rocket engines on Saturn V. The F-1's used this exhaust duct to dump the turbopump exhaust into the nozzle skirt extension about halfway down the length of the 'engine bell'. This turbine exhaust was considerably cooler than the exhaust from the combustion chamber of the rocket engine itself, and therefore "insulated" the nozzle extension of the F-1 with a layer of this 'cooler' (meaning like 1200 degrees instead of 3,000 degree) turbine exhaust gas with the high temperature rocket exhaust in the middle.

That's why when you look at the pad shots of Saturn V's lifting off, you'll notice a dull red and black striped 'exhaust' extending out past the ends of the nozzles for a few feet and then being "absorbed" by the brilliant dazzling white-hot exhaust gases of the rocket engine itself. It's kinda weird looking at it, but that's why it happens.

The old Saturn I's and Atlas and Thor simply dumped the turbine exhaust overboard through an exhaust duct(s) sticking out/down to the side of the rocket engines... that's why when you watch those old pad shots from Mercury and the early probe launches and test launches you'll see this sort slow-moving "lazy" orange, dull red, and black looking exhaust 'rolling' off out to the side of the blazing hot, fast, straight rocket exhaust jet from the main combustion chambers... Saturn IB used a single duct all the four center engines dumped into centrally located between all the four inboard engines, and used the 'skirt dump' method on the outer four outboard engines. Early Saturn I's had four ducts dumping sorta straight out sideways below the fins, that's why the early Saturn I's looked like they were just spraying fire everywhere and it looked like the whole butt of the rocket was on fire!

Hope this helps! OL JR

[Fred22]

He's referring to the tapered toroidal ring around the midpoint of the F-1 rocket engines on Saturn V. The F-1's used this exhaust duct to dump the turbopump exhaust into the nozzle skirt extension about halfway down the length of the 'engine bell'. This turbine exhaust was considerably cooler than the exhaust from the combustion chamber of the rocket engine itself, and therefore "insulated" the nozzle extension of the F-1 with a layer of this 'cooler' (meaning like 1200 degrees instead of 3,000 degree) turbine exhaust gas with the high temperature rocket exhaust in the middle.

That's why when you look at the pad shots of Saturn V's lifting off, you'll notice a dull red and black striped 'exhaust' extending out past the ends of the nozzles for a few feet and then being "absorbed" by the brilliant dazzling white-hot exhaust gases of the rocket engine itself. It's kinda weird looking at it, but that's why it happens.

The old Saturn I's and Atlas and Thor simply dumped the turbine exhaust overboard through an exhaust duct(s) sticking out/down to the side of the rocket engines... that's why when you watch those old pad shots from Mercury and the early probe launches and test launches you'll see this sort slow-moving "lazy" orange, dull red, and black looking exhaust 'rolling' off out to the side of the blazing hot, fast, straight rocket exhaust jet from the main combustion chambers... Saturn IB used a single duct all the four center engines dumped into centrally located between all the four inboard engines, and used the 'skirt dump' method on the outer four outboard engines. Early Saturn I's had four ducts dumping sorta straight out sideways below the fins, that's why the early Saturn I's looked like they were just spraying fire everywhere and it looked like the whole butt of the rocket was on fire!

Hope this helps! OL JR

Thats a great explanation. Thanks
Cheers
Fred

[jj94]

He's referring to the tapered toroidal ring around the midpoint of the F-1 rocket engines on Saturn V. The F-1's used this exhaust duct to dump the turbopump exhaust into the nozzle skirt extension about halfway down the length of the 'engine bell'. This turbine exhaust was considerably cooler than the exhaust from the combustion chamber of the rocket engine itself, and therefore "insulated" the nozzle extension of the F-1 with a layer of this 'cooler' (meaning like 1200 degrees instead of 3,000 degree) turbine exhaust gas with the high temperature rocket exhaust in the middle.

That's why when you look at the pad shots of Saturn V's lifting off, you'll notice a dull red and black striped 'exhaust' extending out past the ends of the nozzles for a few feet and then being "absorbed" by the brilliant dazzling white-hot exhaust gases of the rocket engine itself. It's kinda weird looking at it, but that's why it happens.

The old Saturn I's and Atlas and Thor simply dumped the turbine exhaust overboard through an exhaust duct(s) sticking out/down to the side of the rocket engines... that's why when you watch those old pad shots from Mercury and the early probe launches and test launches you'll see this sort slow-moving "lazy" orange, dull red, and black looking exhaust 'rolling' off out to the side of the blazing hot, fast, straight rocket exhaust jet from the main combustion chambers... Saturn IB used a single duct all the four center engines dumped into centrally located between all the four inboard engines, and used the 'skirt dump' method on the outer four outboard engines. Early Saturn I's had four ducts dumping sorta straight out sideways below the fins, that's why the early Saturn I's looked like they were just spraying fire everywhere and it looked like the whole butt of the rocket was on fire!

Hope this helps! OL JR

Thanks for the explanation. It really clarified my thoughts on its purpose.

[BsSmith]

That's why when you look at the pad shots of Saturn V's lifting off, you'll notice a dull red and black striped 'exhaust' extending out past the ends of the nozzles for a few feet and then being "absorbed" by the brilliant dazzling white-hot exhaust gases of the rocket engine itself. It's kinda weird looking at it, but that's why it happens.

Is this what happens with a White Lightning flame too? I don't know why a solid fuel propellant would have a flame cooler next to the nozzle, but it's a possibility.

[luke strawwalker]

Is this what happens with a White Lightning flame too? I don't know why a solid fuel propellant would have a flame cooler next to the nozzle, but it's a possibility.

I'm not sure about that, but it's a fascinating question! Maybe somebody above my pay grade can answer...

WAG here, but maybe it's an expansion/shockwave phenomena...

Most of us are probably aware of "mach diamonds" in rocket exhaust, which are caused by shock waves setting up inside the stable flow of gasses coming from a rocket motor's exhaust. The shock waves set up a pressure front which bends light differently than the surrounding gas, acting as a 'lens' and making the shock wave visible. Now also reflecting back on the Bernoulli Principle, that gases cool as they expand, might there be a region immediately behind the nozzle where the expansion becomes uncontrolled, leading to greater 'cooling' (relatively speaking of course) causing the flame to look narrower than it actually is?? Once that expansion slows due to pressure equalization with the atmosphere, and heat transfers into that 'cooled' gas, then the flame appears to 'widen' as it all starts glowing white hot?? I know that most model rocket nozzles are actually under expanded, so that would lead to some rapid uncontrolled expansion immediately behind the nozzle, which would seem to make sense. I don't know for sure, just thinking out loud here...

I DO know that I've seen videos of the old Mace and Matador cruise missiles taking off, utilizing a single offset-nozzle 'SRB' mounted underneath the main body of the missile to get it airborne, and they also had 'black striped darker red/orange fire' coming out of the nozzle that then rapidly brightened up to the more bright yellow/white we're accustomed to... The nozzles aren't regeneratively cooled of course, and there aren't any propellant pumps to produce any turbine discharge gas, and the nozzles are simple DeLaval nozzles with no manifolds, so I'm not sure what the reason for this is...

All I know is that I've seen it... OL JR

[rosko_racer]

GuyNoir:

Have you decided what to do about simulating the exhaust manifolds for your Saturn V?

[BsSmith]

I'm not sure about that, but it's a fascinating question! Maybe somebody above my pay grade can answer...

WAG here, but maybe it's an expansion/shockwave phenomena...

Most of us are probably aware of "mach diamonds" in rocket exhaust, which are caused by shock waves setting up inside the stable flow of gasses coming from a rocket motor's exhaust. The shock waves set up a pressure front which bends light differently than the surrounding gas, acting as a 'lens' and making the shock wave visible. Now also reflecting back on the Bernoulli Principle, that gases cool as they expand, might there be a region immediately behind the nozzle where the expansion becomes uncontrolled, leading to greater 'cooling' (relatively speaking of course) causing the flame to look narrower than it actually is?? Once that expansion slows due to pressure equalization with the atmosphere, and heat transfers into that 'cooled' gas, then the flame appears to 'widen' as it all starts glowing white hot?? I know that most model rocket nozzles are actually under expanded, so that would lead to some rapid uncontrolled expansion immediately behind the nozzle, which would seem to make sense. I don't know for sure, just thinking out loud here...

I always thought it was the transition from mach flow to subsonic flow. Another idea is that the exaust from the propellant is still flamable, and it burns once get slows down a bit. There's a picture somewhere that might support yours or my guess. I'll find it once I clean my room...

[BsSmith]

Here we go. I think this was a K white lightning. Somebody forgot the glue. Now you know what a WL flame looks like going sideways near mach. The scariest part is that I was standing there prepping a rocket when it happened.

[GuyNoir]

Have you decided what to do about simulating the exhaust manifolds for your Saturn V?

Got some plumbers epoxy putty and will try that this coming weekend. Thanks for all the suggestions!

[Dr.Zooch]

The reasoning behind FGP is that I needed something simple, inexpensive, on-hand and pliable that any builder could use to make the manifolds. Thus when I was composing the instructions I invented FGP to fill that need. I'd been using it myself since the 1970s for assorted jobs. Of course I was thinking in terms of the lowest common denominator and not in terms of advanced, highly skilled builders such as we have here. My thoughts there are that no matter what- the advanced rocketeer will adapt a solution better than my own- seems always to be true

[GuyNoir]

no matter what- the advanced rocketeer will adapt a solution better than my own- seems always to be true

Flattery will get you more purchases of kits, sir!!

[Kaycee]

I too am in the final stages of building mine, in fact the F1s are the only thing I have left to do. You guys are lucky--I never got past glueing the upper & lower sections of the nozzle together. My big 'ol hands are useless for this step, so instead of the paper wraps, I'm going to use cork. I found some cork plugs at Lowe's in the specialty drawers located in Hardware. They come in several sizes, are light in weight, and with a little trimming & filling they should work out fine. I should be able to progress from here as per the instructions and finish out my Saturn V and get this bird in the air. Here's a few pictures of what I'm using.

We'll see how well they turn out...

[Pantherjon]

That is where tweezers come in handy! Which reminds me, mine have run off to the Bahamas so I need go get another pair/set/something...

[luke strawwalker]

I too am in the final stages of building mine, in fact the F1s are the only thing I have left to do. You guys are lucky--I never got past glueing the upper & lower sections of the nozzle together. My big 'ol hands are useless for this step, so instead of the paper wraps, I'm going to use cork. I found some cork plugs at Lowe's in the specialty drawers located in Hardware. They come in several sizes, are light in weight, and with a little trimming & filling they should work out fine. I should be able to progress from here as per the instructions and finish out my Saturn V and get this bird in the air. Here's a few pictures of what I'm using.

We'll see how well they turn out...

Here's a trick I used on my Discoverer Thor's engine nozzle, and it REALLY makes the thing SO much easier to do... butt gluing paper cones together is a total PITA IMHO. Here's what I did...

From the edge of the wrap sheet with the engine nozzle cones are cut out of, use your steel rule and X-acto to cut a strip of paper about 1/4 inch wide a couple inches long. Once you have this strip of paper, cut 4 or 6 small squares about 1/4 inch long off the strip, making a bunch of little squares. Coat these with yellow or white glue on one side and glue them inside one half the engine bell, with half of the little square sticking up above the edge of the bell where the second half will be joined, sorta like the crenellations around the top of a castle. Put them at 3, 6, 9, and 12 oclock positions around the nozzle, and let them dry. Then take the second half of the nozzle, put a drop of glue on your finger and then swipe a bit on the top half of each square sticking up above the nozzle half, and then install the other half of the nozzle onto the lower half, reaching a finger (or something round and fairly soft yet firm) into the nozzle and gently press the square against the other nozzle half to make sure the thing is glued up tight. Make your way around the nozzle a couple times until the glue 'tacks up' a bit and your sure it's going to stay without pulling away. You can let it dry a little while, and then I put a big drop of glue on my finger and swipe it around the inside of the nozzle where the two halves join to strengthen the joint, and then go over the joint on the outside with the same treatment, just to finish it off and strengthen it up a bit. Works great and makes it SO much easier to make the nozzles... Here's the pics...

Good luck! OL JR

[luke strawwalker]

That is where tweezers come in handy! Which reminds me, mine have run off to the Bahamas so I need go get another pair/set/something...

I tell you something else that are VERY handy-- those little hemostat clamps you can buy at the hardware stores, usually up near the registers. VERY handy little doo dads! Only problem is, the jaws are serrated and tend to leave marks on stuff, but I'm working on a solution to that... gluing a bit of cardstock over the jaws, or maybe even typing paper, or else filing the jaws smooth by hand or with the dremel if I have to...

Later! OL JR

[Saluki]

GuyNoir I have sent tou a private message.

[Dr.Zooch]

It is important to keep in mind that perfection in the F1s is not required. The engine is designed so that the manifold will hide the seams with the string and paint hiding other imperfections. The "wow" factor will do the rest to anyone else who looks at the rocket. Keep in mind what it says on the first page of the instructions- ant-scale is the art of illusion.

Additionally, don't let the the engines turn you off because you have thick fingers- do one, all the way, then look at it- you'll see that it was easier than you thought and came out better than you expected. Always keep in mind that if you mess up, I'll send you new wrap sheets at no cost.