Need Pro Line 4500 Epoxy info

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DavieRockets

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I just got some Pro Line 4500 High Temp black epoxy. I've never used it before. My goto epoxy is west Systems 105/205 with coloidal silica as my thickener. All the 4500 resin can says is "Mix 5.5 parts resin to 1 part hardner" ( I think they meant hardener.

I was told this ratio is by weight. I would like to know the working time, room temperature curing time and anything else pertinent to using/handling this epoxy. My first job will be to use the 4500 to form black fin fillets on my colored Formula 75 rocket. Can I do both sides of the fin at one time or will the epoxy run?

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what follows is just my experiance with the 4500 hi temp black...i love this epoxy.. started useing it on all my builds.

absolutly wear gloves. the black resin will get on everthing if your not careful

5.5 to 1 is by weight. i mix small batches usually no more than 16.5grams (R) to 3grams (H) at a time. this stuff is nice and thick on its own. i can do three fillets at a time without it running to even the middle of my masking tape.

working time for me has been 10min or so. but i build outside so temps are different everyday... but generally 30-45 min it is solid full cure overnight.. built one day. flew the next everything was solid

hope this helps
 
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If ya want to see how to use it go to the Space cowboy thread I'm doing.

Remember do NOT add anything to the black epoxy it will not help. All the good stuff is already in there.
 
Are there any specs on this stuff? Who makes it?

I see wildman sells it, and so does rocketrywarehouse, but there is no info to be found on the internets except that it is a high temp epoxy.
 
I believe you aren't supposed to add anything to black high temp epoxy, it will only weaken it. Just use it directly. I haven't used it, so I don't know the working time. Just thought I'd chime in about the fillers.




Braden
 
OK, I did all three fin fillets at once. Nice epoxy to work with. Its pot life was about 15 minutes at 70 degrees. It has great flow out and leaves a wonderfully glossy surface. Because I was using this epoxy for cosmetic reasons to provide a black transition between the black fins and green airframe, I should have been more precise with the masking fore and aft of the fins. I will do it a bit differently next time. I'll also remove the masking tape sooner so that I get better flow out at the edges. I waited about 10 minutes. I may even consider doing only one fin at a time so I don't feel rushed. I think I will use the Pro Line 4500 in place of JB Weld where I need a high temperature joint in the future. (Centering rings to motor tube etc.) I like the fact that it can be handled in a couple hours unlike JB Weld which needs more like 8 hours.

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Nice job.

Gets easier & easier to use once ya get the feel for it. Really great stuff & when you do it right.... no need to sand fillets !

Gary & I swear by this stuff.

Like Henry Ford said ya can have it any color ya like ..... so long as it's black.
 
Did they change the mix ratio or something?
I came across my Pro Line that came with my Mongoose 54mm and it had a 100: 16 mix ratio by weight that was.



JD
 
That's not that far from the current 5.5:1.
A 6.25:1 ratio just means there is a bit more resin, it has been my experience that epoxies in general are pretty forgiving with the mix ratios, maybe who ever makes ProLine found, a hotter mix gives better working properties.

Did they change the mix ratio or something?
I came across my Pro Line that came with my Mongoose 54mm and it had a 100: 16 mix ratio by weight that was.



JD
 
That's not that far from the current 5.5:1.
A 6.25:1 ratio just means there is a bit more resin, it has been my experience that epoxies in general are pretty forgiving with the mix ratios, maybe who ever makes ProLine found, a hotter mix gives better working properties.
That's not correct.

If you are using a professional epoxy system, your need to pay attention to the manufacturer's mixing ratios if you want the specified properties of the resin. Many high strength resins have 4 reacitive sites per molecuile and may linkers have 2 per molecule, so ideally the epoxy mixture should have 2 linker molecules for every resin molecule to make a perfect polymer.

Since the ratio of resin molecules to linker molecules is determined with chemistry, if you use a higher numerical ratio (not enough linker) not all the bonding sites on the resin won't be used. If you use a lower numerical ratio (not enough resin) all the bonding sites on the linker won't be used.

Either way the resulting epoxy polymer will be weaker than expected. You don't want o be off by more than a couple per cent on the ratio.

You can purchase a 1 kg digital scale with a 0.1 g resolution for not more than $15. HarborFreight is one source and they are all over Amazon. You can use disposal plastic cups to mix. Take the cup you are goin to mix in and tare it on the balance and then pour in the approximate amount of liiner you need (the smaller quantity) and write down the weight. Tare the balance. You need add the ratio tiem the linker weigh to the linker. A trick is to use a second cup and pour out a few percert more resin than you need into it, and then pour from it into the linker container. The viscosity if the resin will cause the flow to so as you near the ideal mixture and it is easy to get within +/- 0.2 g of your target. As long as you were planning to use 10+ g of resin, your error is less than 2%. If your adding a filler, do it last. Then mix, mix, mix. Use popsicle sticks or tounge depresssors to stir the mix. When you think your done, continue, and by the third time you think your done, you are, but never less than a minute.

Always wear nitrile, pvc, polyethelene or buna rubber gloves. This keeps the resins off your skin and your finger prints off the materials your going to epoxy together. Epoxies do not form chemical bonds to cure resins or compiosites. All bonding is mechanical on the molecular level, so sand surfaces with relatively coarse paper before appling the epoxy to enchance the bonding.

Bob
 
I never recommended he ignore the recommended mix ratio.

I was only implying that the difference between 100:16 and 5.5:1 is pretty small (only 2%).

To be truly accurate you need a much better scale than the ones found at harbor freight and the like, although better than nothing. I have invested in several good scales and do not regret a single penny I spent on them.

I was only suggesting that maybe the makers of Proline found that a ratio slightly higher in hardener (as the current mix ratio apparently is) has better working properties, though it is also possible they reformulated it requiring a different ratio.
 
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What Bob said about mixing PLUS pour into an new cup and grab a new mixing stick before using. There will always be some unmixed epoxy around the edges of the mixing cup and on the stick no matter how hard you stirred and if you don't transfer to a new cup and use a new stick, it will end up on your rocket and will not develop full strength.
 
Wow, we're getting nitpicky here! You would think this is rocket science! :point:

Personally I have always weighed my epoxy on a Ohaus triple beam balance. I use one of 3 sizes of disposable polyproplene portion cups like you see at many fast food restaurants. I size the cup to how much epoxy I am mixing. I always ensure that the cup is not more than 20 or 30 percent full so to avoid premature curing caused by the exothermic reaction. I buy mine from a local party supply store. I also love the black ones from Quiznos Subs. I always save mine when eating there.

I weigh the cup and take note of its weight. With West Systems epoxy I pump an appropriate amount into the cup and note the new weight. I then deduct the weight of the cup on a calculator. I then divide the result by 5 (5:1 mix ratio). Next I add that result to the scale reading by sliding the cursor(s) to the total required weight. Finally I pump enough hardener into the cup(until the scale balances back to zero.

I am careful not to drip any epoxy or hardener on the walls of the cup. Then I mix, mix, mix. If needed, I add fillers or fiber and mix some more. During application I give the mixture a stir every so oftem to avoid hot spots.

With the Pro Line 4500, I use two popsicle sticks or tongue depressors depending on how much I'm mixing (one for resin, one for hardener) to drip material into the cup. Anything left on the sticks gets scraped back into the original containers. My 2 cents.

Polypropylene Portion Cups.jpg

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