Propellent weight & Haz Mat

[bradycros]

Can any number of individual propellent grains weighing a max 30 grams or less be shipped via the US Postal Service without a Haz Mat charge?

[ClayD]

Can any number of individual propellent grains weighing a max 30 grams or less be shipped via the US Postal Service without a Haz Mat charge?

Yes, however you must be a shipper on USPS list. Not just anyone can ship..(my understanding)

It is still hazmat, even though there is no fee associated...

however, you are limited to the total weight, which means you would be better off to ship 2 boxes.(thats a lot of motors..)

[qquake2k]

Can any number of individual propellent grains weighing a max 30 grams or less be shipped via the US Postal Service without a Haz Mat charge?

That's what I was told by Ken at Performance Hobbies. As long as any one grain doesn't exceed 30 grams, there is no hazmat fee, regardless of quantity. It specifies on his website which reloads and SU motors require hazmat, and which ones don't.

[bradycros]

That's what I was told by Ken at Performance Hobbies. As long as any one grain doesn't exceed 30 grams, there is no hazmat fee, regardless of quantity. It specifies on his website which reloads and SU motors require hazmat, and which ones don't.

Ok, that's what I thought.

Thrust curve, www.thrustcurve.org shows the propellent weight of the motor I'm looking at, Cesaroni 24 mm 73F30-6A, as 40 grams. If the propellenet is a single grain weighing 40 grams I can see why there is a haz mat fee.

But...

Performance Hobbies lists the motor I am looking at, cesaroni 24 mm 78F30-6A, as a 3 grain motor. 40 grams divided by 3 is 13.3 grams per grain. That's a lot less then the 30 gram shipping limit per grain.

The question is... what's the deal?

[ClayD]

ALL CTI requires hazmat fee.

they are not approved for USPS shipment, i believe. They can go UPS, but they carge a 35.00 fee now.(ups not the vendors or cti)

thats the way i understand it... CTI did not get the exemption for USPS shipments.

AT 29mm High power are the only hazmat free i know of. And some of them are not hazmat free.


(dumbed down)
the motor may not require hazmat, but no one got it approved to ship by USPS, so its shipped by UPS, which charges a fee for any rocket motor.

[bradycros]

ALL CTI requires hazmat fee.

they are not approved for USPS shipment, i believe. They can go UPS, but they carge a 35.00 fee now.(ups not the vendors or cti)

thats the way i understand it... CTI did not get the exemption for USPS shipments.

AT 29mm High power are the only hazmat free i know of. And some of them are not hazmat free.


(dumbed down)
the motor may not require hazmat, but no one got it approved to ship by USPS, so its shipped by UPS, which charges a fee for any rocket motor.

Well crap!

Is CTI working on correcting their oversight anytime in the near future?

[qquake2k]

This is a guess, and only a guess, but could it be that CTI grains are in a plastic housing and AT grains are packed loose in a bag?

[troj]

I believe how it's packaged plays into whether or not USPS will allow it to be shipped or not.

I know it affects DOT requirements.

-Kevin

[bradycros]

This is a guess, and only a guess, but could it be that CTI grains are in a plastic housing and AT grains are packed loose in a bag?

I believe how it's packaged plays into whether or not USPS will allow it to be shipped or not.

I know it affects DOT requirements.

-Kevin

With money to be made, you'd think any problems would be worked until corrected.

[troj]

With money to be made, you'd think any problems would be worked until corrected.

Keep in mind that changing the packaging would require changing their instructions, packaging, and who knows what else?

The question is how that will compare to the impact on sales. That's something I cannot even begin to hazard a guess on.

-Kevin

[cavecentral]

CTI's money was made off the simplicity of building the reloads. One step.

Breaking it into grains for shipping and reassembling would make them closer to the market Aerotech already has. Makes business sense to keep their model if that is what worked for them.

[bradycros]

Keep in mind that changing the packaging would require changing their instructions, packaging, and who knows what else?

The question is how that will compare to the impact on sales. That's something I cannot even begin to hazard a guess on.

-Kevin

I would think not having to pay a $35 Haz mat fee per order, sales could only improve. Improve enough that changing their instructions, packaging, and who knows what else would be worth the investment.

After all, they are already making the product.

[qquake2k]

One of the allures of CTI motors is their easy, almost foolproof, assembly. Maybe if they changed to loose grains, they'd loose some or all of that benefit. It could also be that when CTI motors first came out, there was no hazmat fee. I know I didn't pay a fee when I ordered my first CTI reloads.

[eggplant]

From what I saw in the Apogee video, a 29mm Cesaroni motor could be disassembled into: liner and nozzle, delay element, and the grains. Each grain could be in a separate bag. All you would have to add to assembly would be simply inserting each grain into the liner. Not that hard. You already have to remove the delay element to adjust the time, so how much harder can it be to slip a couple of grains in while you have it off?

[tbonerocketeer]

ALL CTI requires hazmat fee.

they are not approved for USPS shipment, i believe. They can go UPS, but they carge a 35.00 fee now.(ups not the vendors or cti)

thats the way i understand it... CTI did not get the exemption for USPS shipments.

AT 29mm High power are the only hazmat free i know of. And some of them are not hazmat free.


(dumbed down)
the motor may not require hazmat, but no one got it approved to ship by USPS, so its shipped by UPS, which charges a fee for any rocket motor.

Hazmat via fedex went up to $27.50, not $35


Chris

[New Ocean]

This is a guess, and only a guess, but could it be that CTI grains are in a plastic housing and AT grains are packed loose in a bag?

Yes.

The solution is to buy at the launch if you want to save on shipping, or buy in bulk online and pay shipping for a discount per motor.

[troj]

HazMat is nothing new -- it has been around since well before CTI started making hobby motors.

BTW, not all CTI loads are as simple as just dropping grains into the liner -- a number of them (no, I don't know how many) have small o-rings in between the grains.

-Kevin

[bobkrech]

Can any number of individual propellent grains weighing a max 30 grams or less be shipped via the US Postal Service without a Haz Mat charge?

No. Not unless all the following requirements are met.

• The motors must meet certain USPS specificatiojns and be apporved by the USPS in writing
• The individual needs to be approved by the USPS in writing
• Approvals must be renewed annually in writing
• The motors or propellant grains must be individually package per USPS specifications
• No indiividual package can contain more than 30 grams of propellant
• The individual packages must be overpacked securely in a fiberboard box
• he total weight mailed in each fiberboard box must not exceed 25 poundsl
• Each box must be marked "Toy Propellant Devices, Handle With Care" and "Surface Mail Only"

http://www.nar.org/pdf/shipping_rocket_motors.pdf

Postal Publication 52, Acceptance of Hazardous, Restricted, and Perishable Matter

[cavecentral]

I use Aerotech because they are cheaper on the reloads. CTI advertised how much easier they are and that is true. Since I have no issues with AT - building them for years, I seen no reason to switch.

Many people first getting into rocketry choose CTI for that reason. Considered fool proof for a Level 1 cert. Still very simple. If they look like a bag of parts like AT, then that might go away.

That or they established enough of a name to get away with it by now.

[atticus]

For example, the Aerotech G64W used to be a single 62.5 gram grain, and couldn't (or shouldn't - I don't remember always paying a fee) be shipped USPS.
Now, it is listed as 60 grams propellant weight and is split into two separate 30 gram grains which the user tapes together aligning the igniter slots.
The total impulse dropped from 120 to 112 NewtonSeconds, but they can be shipped USPS.
This is done with some of the red and green reloads as well.

[MarkII]

For example, the Aerotech G64W used to be a single 62.5 gram grain, and couldn't (or shouldn't - I don't remember always paying a fee) be shipped USPS.
Now, it is listed as 60 grams propellant weight and is split into two separate 30 gram grains which the user tapes together aligning the igniter slots.
The total impulse dropped from 120 to 112 NewtonSeconds, but they can be shipped USPS.
This is done with some of the red and green reloads as well.

AeroTech calls them "bifurcated" reloads, I believe. The F40W reload for the RMS 29/40-120 still features a grain that is similar in size to the old G64 reloads: one long propellant slug. It is a wonderful reload but if ordered online it incurs a Hazmat fee, which is a notorious hassle for that popular MPR motor in particular. Heck, even the black powder Estes E9 must be shipped by common carrier and will require payment of the fee because each one contains 35.8 grams of propellant. The one saving grace is that you only pay one fee for an entire box, so if you order in bulk the cost of the fee can be spread out over multiple motors.

[cdondanville]

Well crap!

Is CTI working on correcting their oversight anytime in the near future?

Is it a CTI problem? The USPS exemption is secured by the online retailer, not CTI the manufacturer. CTI reloads violate the "30 gram" rule, but to change that CTI would have to change the company from the business model down to the packaging. They built their business on being the easy reload, one piece, screw it in, fly it, screw it out, throw it away. I can't see them changing that

Another thing to bear in mind, CTI isn't even an American company. When it ships to vendors it is via Canadian post and could go to any country in which they have distributors each of which has their own shipping regulations.

[bradycros]

Is it a CTI problem? The USPS exemption is secured by the online retailer, not CTI the manufacturer. CTI reloads violate the "30 gram" rule, but to change that CTI would have to change the company from the business model down to the packaging. They built their business on being the easy reload, one piece, screw it in, fly it, screw it out, throw it away. I can't see them changing that

Another thing to bear in mind, CTI isn't even an American company. When it ships to vendors it is via Canadian post and could go to any country in which they have distributors each of which has their own shipping regulations.

In what manner is this information useful to USA consumers that dislike paying Haz Mat fees for low and mid powerd reloads.

"Change the company", I hardly think so.

[troj]

It would require changes, not "to the company", but to their manufacturing process, which may have significant cost. At the very least, it would mean changing their packaging, which I believe is part of their DOT approvals, and may well incur additional cost there, as well.

So, let's say it costs $5,000 to implement such changes. Will they gain sufficient additional sales over the next three years, over what they get without such changes, to recoup that expense? It's all about ROI, and companies typically want to see a positive ROI in three years, or less. Lots of projects I've worked on have to show an ROI in a year or less in order to get approved.

-Kevin

[G_T]

I believe many of the CTI reloads use a pyrodex pellet to aid ignition. That might change things, compared to other reloads.

Gerald

[tbonerocketeer]

Is it a CTI problem? The USPS exemption is secured by the online retailer, not CTI the manufacturer. CTI reloads violate the "30 gram" rule, but to change that CTI would have to change the company from the business model down to the packaging. They built their business on being the easy reload, one piece, screw it in, fly it, screw it out, throw it away. I can't see them changing that

Another thing to bear in mind, CTI isn't even an American company. When it ships to vendors it is via Canadian post and could go to any country in which they have distributors each of which has their own shipping regulations.

CTI shipments go via freight, not canadian post.

[cdondanville]

In what manner is this information useful to USA consumers that dislike paying Haz Mat fees for low and mid powerd reloads.

"Change the company", I hardly think so.

And because you don't like paying a hazmat fee, how is that a "CTI oversight"?

The point I was making is that CTI made a decision the build their business around being the flier friendly reload. That decision came with certain implications that include hazmat fees for some reloads that it could possibly be avoided on and slightly higher cost reloads overall (due to the assembly labor.). For them to suddenly start shipping reloads as bags of parts they would lose that differentiation. They lose that then they have to change strategy as well as execution in manufacturing, packaging and shipping, hence my change the company comment. So in addition to changing documentation, packaging materials and machines and the associated business processes they also have to come up with their new identity. When I have to assemble the motor in the field, and not just screw in the reload, they are no longer "the easy one."

[Disaster_Guy]

I will continue to take my motors in what are primarily drop in liners, thank you very much. No desire to see it changed to a bag of parts. I don't pay hazmat shipping fees for any motor. I either buy them at launches or have my local hobby shop special order them for me along with other hazardous stuff they get in. The idea to totally change the concept behind a motor to save a $20-30/BOX fee just doesn't cut the mustard. Hell, if you are ordering a few J's, K's, and L's the HAZMAT fee is likely less than you would pay in sales tax.

There is an easy solution to this problem:
-Buy AT if you like to assemble a motor (o-rings and all), not pay a per box hazmat shipping fee, and likely pay a little less for the load.
-Buy CTI if you want something simple and aren't having stuff shipped to you or don't care what it costs.

[bobkrech]

I believe many of the CTI reloads use a pyrodex pellet to aid ignition. That might change things, compared to other reloads.

Gerald

It's black powder, not Pyrodex(R), but it doesn't change anything.

Bob

[bobkrech]

If you dont want to pay a hazmat fee, get a group of guys to go in on a group puirchase of 30 CTI motors.

The hazmat fee is $27.50 or less than a $1 per motor. I'll bet most on;lime vendors will eat the haznmat fee and probably the shipping fee for this size order.

Anoither option is fo order from a vendor like Wildman. Join the club and save a coupe of bucks per motor of $60 on 30 motors. Cost to join is $30. Cost of hazmat fee is $27.50. You still save $2.50.

Or buy the motors from your local CTI distributor.

Bob