New Estes AP Motors - Now Up on Website (Sort Of)

Finally, this is now up on the Estes website (I've been waiting for it for months).

https://www.estesrockets.com/rockets/pro-series/engines-1



The downside is that they are still shown as "Out of Stock", and they are a bit pricey. I hope that it is some sort of typo, but my guess is that the answer is "Yep, that's really the price".



Greg

ouch, $55 for a F motor

Not sure how many they plan to sell at those prices. One Estes AP motor is a CTI PRO29 starter set.

Maybe they'll have a roar that'll shake the heavens....

GregGleason said:

Finally, this is now up on the Estes website (I've been waiting for it for months). <snip pics>

Click to expand...

Ooh. Yecch. Looking at how they've done this, to incorporate the HAZMAT fees into the motor prices to prevent surprises when buyers get to checkout, only serves to make things worse. Folks will look at the astronomical prices, then look at the ridiculously worded discount statements and be truly confused. It looks like, if I buy enough motors, they're free, right?

Instead of all this confusing math, why not simply show the suggested motor price and change the yellow boxed warnings to this much simpler statement?: These motors require a $25 per order HAZMAT fee (up to 20 motors per order). Buyers must be 18 years of age or older.

As it stands now, they might as well have said, "We don't want to sell these to anyone."

If they want to offer bulk discounts, then simply list a single piece price and a 3pc price (ala the Estes catalogs of the 60's/70's). Maybe throw in a statement that "additional volume discounts may be applied at checkout".

But this presentation of a stupidly high price followed by confusing albeit steep discounts is just asking for problems. It violates the KISS principle in multiple dimensions.

Doug

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I think you're right Doug. I think quite a few people will choke at that price, I know I would.

A comparison to the Value Rockets website, 2 F27's go for $39.99.

https://www.valuerockets.com/product_details.aspx?pid=19&itemid=86

At last weekends launch, a vendor was selling SU F's for about $15.

Greg

Yeah, that's a really odd and discouraging way to levy the shipping fee.

Best case scenario is $25 a motor.

The F27 has 28g of propellant. These motors can ship USPS.

The F50 has 33.6g of propellant. It must ship as HAZMAT.

It could benefit hobby shops in a backhand way. Even if a hobby shop charges SRP for the Estes F50 motor, it will still be cheaper than ordering it directly from Estes. It could cause hobby shops to carry some inventory of these motors if they get enough requests.

And worst case is $55 for a F motor. If you buy three, it's $165 with a $60 discount. It's still $105, or $35 per F motor. I can buy a 29/40-120 RMS and 4 or 5 reloads for that.

Hope they sell one.

I made a thread about this a while ago...
https://www.rocketryforum.com/showthread.php?t=30882

turned out okay. Hobbylinc still sells them cheaper.

Hobbylinc has the right idea:
https://www.hobbylinc.com/cgi-bin/s8.cgi?cat_s=TCS&mfg_s=est
(Edit: Oops, Alex got to it first)

Now if they were to sell them in a 24 bulk pack, and if HobbyLinc were to sell them at HobbyLinc prices..........

Aksrockets said:

turned out okay. Hobbylinc still sells them cheaper.

Click to expand...

Yes, we know that. But how many of the un-knowing will land on the Estes site, see the prices, say no thanks, and move on without pursuing it any further? It serves no useful purpose to be so out of alignment with the retail channels.

We all know they need to use MSRP, and that that will be a bit higher than many of their resellers will list. But the key is "a bit". Not astronomically higher. (It looks like Michael's pricing ).

In short, no doubt, some users will find this a major turn off. The only real argument we can carry on is how many/what percentage? A negligible few? How small a number is negligible?

Doug

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Handeman said:

And worst case is $55 for a F motor. If you buy three, it's $165 with a $60 discount. It's still $105, or $35 per F motor. I can buy a 29/40-120 RMS and 4 or 5 reloads for that.

Hope they sell one.

Click to expand...

It is more likely that hobby shops will carry the Estes (Relabeled AeroTech) single-use F & G motors than will carry the AeroTech RMS system and reloads.

Estes is the 'name' in model rocketry.

Initiator001 said:

It is more likely that hobby shops will carry the Estes (Relabeled AeroTech) single-use F & G motors than will carry the AeroTech RMS system and reloads.

Estes is the 'name' in model rocketry.

Click to expand...

Marketing by Aerotech.

Probably another failed dip into mid power.

plano-doug said:

We all know they need to use MSRP, and that that will be a bit higher than many of their resellers will list. But the key is "a bit". Not astronomically higher. (It looks like Michael's pricing )

Doug

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Click to expand...

So what it the retail price? I usually buy Estes motors at retail. I wait for the 30% off week at Hobby Lobby and stock up on BP motors. Is the shelf price on these things going to be outrageous? The hazmat fee affects a retailer very differently than mail order. Usually the effect is negligible. I only pay $11 for an AT reload at retail at the LHS!

This may be the most bone head pricing/marketing move I have seen in a while. Not a good strategy to try and break into a new market.

cdondanville said:

So what is the retail price?

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Well, the AT F50 (same motor as the Estes F50) is available at Hobbylinc for $16.19 discounted, with an MSRP of 24.99. The Estes price (shown herein) was 55 bucks. Subtracting out 25 for HAZMAT, that leaves 30 dollars, which is in the ball park of the AT MSRP, but still a bit higher.

As Bob points out, since Estes is the recognized brand, they can command a higher price, so that explains the 5 dollar delta over the AT price; it makes sense...

Until you compare it with the hobbylinc price, then it's still crazy high - 30 vs 16.99 - even ignoring the $25 HAZMAT built into the price.

And with the HAZMAT included, it's just bad all-round bad marketing.

Doug

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plano-doug said:

And with the HAZMAT included, it's just bad all-round bad marketing.
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Click to expand...

Estes BP E motors are the same way on the Estes website. I do not think Estes wants to sell these direct, but through resellers. The high prices scares people, but how many really buy from their site? Wait for Hobbylinc.

Nobody can accuse them of undercutting the reseller.

Well now I know what happened to the guy who raised the fees at Netflix; he went to work at Estes.

Zeus-cat said:

Well now I know what happened to the guy who raised the fees at Netflix; he went to work at Estes.

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Be afraid, be very afraid...heard a rumour he's applied to the IRS....

Holy crap! You can buy an F26 or F50 from Wildman for $14.99 any time. The $25.00 Hazmat gets spread over your whole motor order so it is WAY cheaper to buy them from Tim.

Could this oddity be something really simple and stupid, like Estes' web-store software being unable to deal with a separate Hazmat fee?

New Ocean said:

Probably another failed dip into mid power.

Click to expand...

Estes previous failures with a mid-power rocketry line were the result of bad management.

The North Coast Rocketry By Estes (NCRBE) line sold pretty well and I saw the original Pro Series in many hobby shops.

For some 'history' of the original Estes Pro Series product line:

https://forums.rocketshoppe.com/showthread.php?t=8736&page=1&pp=10

Enjoy.

plano-doug said:

Ooh. Yecch. Looking at how they've done this, to incorporate the HAZMAT fees into the motor prices to prevent surprises when buyers get to checkout, only serves to make things worse. Folks will look at the astronomical prices, then look at the ridiculously worded discount statements and be truly confused. It looks like, if I buy enough motors, they're free, right?

Instead of all this confusing math, why not simply show the suggested motor price and change the yellow boxed warnings to this much simpler statement?: These motors require a $25 per order HAZMAT fee (up to 20 motors per order). Buyers must be 18 years of age or older.

As it stands now, they might as well have said, "We don't want to sell these to anyone."

If they want to offer bulk discounts, then simply list a single piece price and a 3pc price (ala the Estes catalogs of the 60's/70's). Maybe throw in a statement that "additional volume discounts may be applied at checkout".

But this presentation of a stupidly high price followed by confusing albeit steep discounts is just asking for problems. It violates the KISS principle in multiple dimensions.

Doug

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Click to expand...

Maybe that is exactly what they had in mind.

For what it takes Estes to sell AP motors (read that as REsale AP motors because we KNOW they are not making them) they cant be making much on these
Remember having 29mm kits.. thats going to make them tons. and it's going to GROW THE HOBBY. its going to get more interest in high power etc. there is a TON of market for MID power and HIGH power rockets. estes wants a chunk of that. if you are going to sell kits you gotta offer the motors. and they KNOW they cant compete with the guys making AP motors, but they gotta offer them if your gonna make the kits, So just let the other AP guys make them. offer them at a loss or little profit and forget about trying to make anything on them..

Smart Move in my opinion.

Didn't the HazMat fee go up to $35 at the beginning of the year?

Just asking...

stickershock23 said:

if you are going to sell kits you gotta offer the motors. and they KNOW they cant compete with the guys making AP motors, but they gotta offer them if your gonna make the kits, So just let the other AP guys make them. offer them at a loss or little profit and forget about trying to make anything on them..

Smart Move in my opinion.

Click to expand...

No. No one new to mid-power is going to buy the kit if they're turned off by the motor prices.Yes, you know where to get motors for less (as do most of us). But for the new customers this is aimed at, it has to be a turn off. Furthermore, I'm pretty sure, even if Estes paid retail prices for the F50's, that at 55 bucks, they're not selling them at a loss

Doug

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o1d_dude said:

Didn't the HazMat fee go up to $35 at the beginning of the year?

Just asking...

Click to expand...

Good point. I think it did go up. But the number I recall was $27.50.

Doug

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Initiator001 said:

Estes previous failures with a mid-power rocketry line were the result of bad management.

Click to expand...

So nothing to do with forcing people to use their own line of AP motors that did not offer the variety or value of established AP lines?

New Ocean said:

So nothing to do with forcing people to use their own line of AP motors that did not offer the variety or value of established AP lines?

Click to expand...

You're talking about the tight motor tubes which required some fiddling to allow use of the AT motors?

That's been denied. And I believed the explanation. While it seems plausible - no doubt there was some bad blood to support that - the story was posted on the web a few years back by one of the players. It came down to there being no real standard for the min/max ID of a 29mm motor tube.

IIRC, this really only affected the single-use AT motors. If the labels were peeled, supposedly they would fit. Similarly, I recall reading the 29mm reload case would fit as well.

When Estes ramped their production of the NCR birds, they changed the motor tube source, and that's where the problem started.

Anyway, I'm inclined to give Estes the benefit of the doubt on this aspect of the NCR deal.

Doug

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